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Old 03-29-2017, 07:30 PM   #41
Alon
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Default Thank you Soli

I am so grateful for the detailed tutorial, it ties everything together for me, I'm able to record ideas from my Ravenscroft 275 direct to sibelius (albeit having to tidy up the score later) it gives me spontaneity in the production, moving seamlessly from audio recording to scoring, great stuff !!!
Thank you so much !!!
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Old 03-31-2017, 05:27 AM   #42
Soli Deo Gloria
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Well, I'm glad that it has been of help for you! Right now, I think very few people will be interested in this workflow since the implementation of notation in Reaper. Honestly, I tried to adapt to the native notation by the end of 2016/beginning of 2017, but in the end, it's still far, far (and I mean FAR) more convenient for me to go on writing with Sibelius as rewire slave and play back with Reaper. The experience of writing with Sibelius is simply too comfortable/flexible in every way for my taste to abandon it. While I have been doing different works back with this workflow, I have even assembled a simple empty template to have 4 sets of 16 tracks each receiving its own channel from each staff of a Sibelius template. I am testing it (and polishing it for my own use) in a number of real use cases, and at some point I´ll probably share it here just in case anyone (like you, for example) is still interested in this way of work.

Bidule as a VST on each track - to handle incoming MIDI in any conceivable way - and the Inspector with Articulation Management from Stephane (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183669) are definitely the perfect addition to make this the only way I can produce music with a computer in a fluid way. Not a cup of tea for most people, most probably, but I think it´s nevertheless necessary to leave the information available here, as your post seems to confirm. From time to time, someone might be interested...

Enjoy, and if you have any doubt, don´t hesitate to write.

Greets!

Last edited by Soli Deo Gloria; 03-31-2017 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:03 PM   #43
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Hi there, everything working like a charm, but one thing:
I have a string quartet set up in Kontakt with the Spitfire String Quartet instrument.
The problem is that the instruments in kontakt are reading volume and panning information from sibelius, and i would like to leave those at 0 since i would like to manipulate that from the individual audio output I've created for each instrument.
Thanks in advance.

@Soli Deo Gloria de Bs As???
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:55 PM   #44
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Hi Marcos!

I´m a fellow countryman, as you noticed, but I´ll write in english here for everyone to have the information available. Regarding your question, I always do the following : I leave, as you say, each channel on Sibelius´mixer at 0 and block that value with a filter in an instance of Bidule inside each Reaper´s instrument track (you can do the same using MidiConverter3 from the Piz MIDI plugin pack, in case you don´t already use it). Once CC7 value 0 is blocked you can then set another value either from an item on Reaper´s track or from Sibelius itself, using technique text on the staff with, for example, something like ~C7,100 to set the value.

I hope that helps, and if you have further doubts, just write!

Greets!
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:00 AM   #45
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Default Rendering audio with Sibelius & Reaper

Which would be the better approach to render audio with Sibelius sending only MIDI data to Reaper?

My scenario (made possible by this tutorial! ):

Sibelius score, no sounds, only sends MIDI to Reaper.
Reaper is hosting all the VSTi and playing back audio. It also has all keyswitch and CC control to fine tune playback of VSTi's.

Is there any chance of rendering offline as a one step process?

I'd like to avoid replicating the Sibelius score within Reaper with corresponding MIDI items.
I get a good real time playback, so I guess/hope it's possible to render that without recording the playback, or as I said before, without exporting Sibelius MIDI and importing it to Reaper. That would be like having two copies of the score (one on Sibelius, and the same data in Reaper with MIDI items).

Any change or modification in the score would mean to export from Sib/import in Reaper, fine tuning and rendering again.

Thanks for the tutorial!

EDIT:

Regarding playback, I'm experiencing some sort of stutter at the start of playback. It lasts only 1 beat, or less.
As is the case with the test project I'm working on, starting playback in Reaper with the playback cursor previously set at the exact start of a measure which has four sixteenth notes to play, audio sounds like rushing the tempo on the first two or three sixteenth notes, and then syncs the tempo properly.
It would definitely help when writing/hearing passages which need repetitive adjusting and listening.
I made sure I've selected to prevent both Anticipative FX and Media Buffering.
Is this small but distracting stutter the normal behaviour or maybe I didn't set it up correctly?

EDIT2:

Well, after spending some time with the workflow, I think it's in fact more convenient to export MIDI from Sibelius, import it in Reaper for fine tuning/rendering.
Once MIDI is imported on separate tracks within Reaper, I've had better results disarming the Sibelius rewire track, and the Sibelius MIDI-In track within Reaper. Also turning off monitoring on those tracks.

While writing in Sibelius and listening on Reaper I noticed small timing delays, rushed rhythms when starting playback. It lasts only roughly one second, and then timing catches up and keeps steady. There are sometimes very little lag on random passages. Still, very usable when writing/hearing the score.

Once the score is finished, because of those timing issues, I think the best workaround to fine tune/render is exporting MIDI from Sibelius.

Any suggestions would be of great help.

Thanks again

Last edited by straycatblues; 11-11-2018 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:20 AM   #46
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Hi!


I see you´re in the same path I´ve been a couple of years ago. I have to be sincere now and say that, after a lot of backs and forths I have finally settled with the opposite worflow : using the native Notation Editor for writing and exporting to Sibelius or MuseScore for editing the visual aspect of the score. In order to feel reasonably comfortable, I had to customize deeply the native score editor, in some ways similar to some aspects of Sibelius and in others in a quite idiosyncratic manner.

There is a remarkable pro and a good deal of cons regarding the use of Sibelius rewire workflow that have to be considered (involving both subjective and objective reasons).

Pro :

- Sibelius´workflow for writing is, for my taste (and this is extremely subjective, I know) unbeatable.

Cons :

- Timing, as you say, has a noticeable amount of MIDI jitter, which obviously gets worse as the project grows and you add more instruments. As you have properly observed, the system syncs fine in a broad way, but there are many situations when little problems arise here and there. I wouldn´t blame any of the three parts involved exclusively (Reaper, the virtual MIDI port and Sibelius), but the combo is certainly not free of nitpicks/little bugs. When you import that same MIDI into Reaper, you immediately notice that the timing is tighter than with the rewire workflow. It´s perfectly usable, of course, but certain genres probably demand the kind of tightness for playback and editing that you can only get with a DAW workflow.

- During the past years, I have done quite a lot of sophisticated things with this rewire workflow (i.e., sending lots of controller messages with Sibelius´ notes to automate effects and articulation switching in Reaper), and while everything is highly usable, in the end, you can´t compare with the flexibility you have while writing and editing in the same environment. That is, obviously, my personal view nowadays, but I acknowledge that for all of us who prefer to start with a traditional score, there are many things to miss from Sibelius´workflow.

- Regarding offline rendering with rewire, I don´t think is possible, at least as far as I can remember. I could, nevertheless, be wrong and something could have changed in the meantime.

- I have devoted some years to try this workflow extensively and I can say that these things that you´ve been observing, most probably, will never be completely solved. It´s a take it or leave it issue, specially since it´s used by an extremely reduced number of users, I think, both in Sibelius´ and Reaper´s communities.

In the tip department, most probably, it´s better to receive each port with a single armed track (with Ant. FX and Buffering disabled) and distribute each channel to its corresponding track inside Reaper via routing, rather than having many armed tracks at the same time.

Inside Sibelius´ main menu, try this :

1 PLAY - Performance :

Espressivo & Rubato : Meccanico
Rythmic Feel : Straight

Unslurred notes : 99 % of written duration

Rewire : Tempo Track

2 DICTIONARY - Staff Lines :

Slur above % below – Sound ID change : Until end of last note under line

Adjust durations by : 108 %
Adjust last note by 99 %

3 PLAY - LIVE TEMPO / LIVE PLAYBACK : OFF (!!!!)


In the end, you´ll have to decide if the cons are heavier than the blissful pro you have with Sibelius´ composing workflow. Any other doubts you have, just write.


Greets!

Last edited by Soli Deo Gloria; 11-13-2018 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:26 AM   #47
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Thanks for the detailed info. I'll have to do further testing with bigger projects to see for myself which workflow is more convenient.

So far I've tested the Sib-rewired-to-Reaper approach with only one project, with 7 VSTi's, 3 minutes long.
I've made sure that Sibelius was sending only musical data to Reaper. (Note on, note off, duration, and velocity).
All CC, articulation, keyswitching, etc. was done in real time within Reaper, with a MIDI item containing only the CC events, articulation changes and keyswitching for each track.
Aside of the timing issues, I think it worked out fine.
When exporting the final MIDI from Sibelius, I created a separate track for each instrument (containing only the notes), and routed those tracks to the corresponding one holding both the VSTi and the MIDI item for CC/articulation/KS.

You're right, Sibelius writing this way is very good. You can hear very accurately what you're writing.

I would like to know, roughly, what's the opposite workflow, so I can test it. Is the customization of the native Reaper Notation Editor very painful?
I haven't spent any time with it but I'd like to try that out.
EDIT: Actually, I've spent little time with it. Feels unfinished. No chance to mock-up notation (for example: staccato quarter note is noted as an eight note, or less). Exporting MIDI or MusicXml and importing it to a notation software, results in a lot of additional work to tidy things up. In this proccess, there's the added possibility to make mistakes on the score at the notation software stage. At a very basic first glance, it seems too tedious. But, maybe you've found an usable approach for this workflow.

Speaking of your current workflow, does Sibelius import what you've written first on Reaper accurately? I'm hoping it does, because having to change many things on Sib side could lead to potential dettaching between written score and Reaper audio.
Much more desirable would be to address only cosmetic changes on Sib side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
1 PLAY - Performance :

Espressivo & Rubato : Meccanico
Rythmic Feel : Straight

Unslurred notes : 99 % of written duration

Rewire : Tempo Track
If swing feel is needed, Rhytmic Feel should be set accordingly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
2 DICTIONARY - Staff Lines :

Slur above % below – Sound ID change : Until end of last note under line

Adjust durations by : 108 %
Adjust last note by 99 %

3 PLAY - LIVE TEMPO / LIVE PLAYBACK : OFF (!!!!)
The slur config is meant to be assigned to the 8 kind of slurs (except "Tie", or "Ligadura de prolongación" in Spanish)? Or is it only applicable to Slur above, and Slur Below?
Also, what does this do? All 8 kind of slurs are set to 102%, and 95% by default.

Thank you, greetings!

Last edited by straycatblues; 11-28-2018 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:32 PM   #48
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Default ANY solution to those timing issues?

Hey folks,

i just wondered if there's anything new regarding those timing issues. This, honestly, is driving me nuts.

I stumbled upon this thread while searching for a solution to the more than annoying timing lags / jittering / however you want to call it while having sibelius rewired to reaper.
I thought i should give the midi-approach a shot, because, who knows, maybe it's just a sibelius player - issue. But no luck; after setting everything up following the great tutorial (and using loopMIDI), everything's just the same when using vst instruments in reaper.

This renders my whole setup completely useless, which is: sad. Spent 2 months on this now, and it just works with, say, slow songs (<100bpm), probably best without any tempo changes at all in the score. As soon as i speed things up, lags and stuttering become clearly audible.

My current workaround: Exporting everything to audio and importing in reaper, so just use Sibelius as a "visual" player of the score. I just CAN'T believe it's ending here.

I mean: There are so many, like, youtube-tutorials out there where people have this setup working! Maybe not with reaper (but maybe different DAWs). E.g. saw this guy on youtube with Sibelius and Finale (?) with his Symphony Score?
So why THE HECK does it obviously work with some people?

I just have the constant feeling i'm just missing a simple setting somewhere, just one switch to press or something else.

Gnarf.

Just for the record: Sibelius Ultimate 2020.3, Reaper 6.11, NI Komplete Audio 6 (Mark I), Core i7 5600U, 12GB Ram, SSD.


AND WHAT'S EVEN WORSE: During live-sessions (you know, these days, Zoom, youtube streaming, whatever), EVERY §%"§$ TIME i've to switch songs (open a different project while using rewire), Sibelius get's COMPLETELY lost in terms of crackles, audio problems, lags, whatever. Closing and reopening Sibelius helps... sometimes.

Sorry. But there are times all of this is REALLY bothering me, just had to tell somebody.


Greetings,
Sebastian
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:53 PM   #49
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Hi mablung! So I know a little how you are feeling I found this thread some years ago. And used sibelius and reaper in total rewire while composing some music ( and some with very strange time changes lke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlJOiQmUEog andhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zk7Rm1i0Zw )My composition process was inside both softwares and it led my to quite good results.

I do have this jitter problems I researched it and it is probably caused by MIDI jitter( try to search that ) so I think there is not many things to do the problem is that we still are using the MIDI technology without updates since many years.

Rewire is build upon midi so it have it's time problems, I think as we see MIDI2.0 being announced and more software accepting OSC that MIDI may migrate to new fields. And so Rewire, even propellerhead ( created the REWIRE ) are not using it anymore in Reason 11.

So I have noticed two problems receving the MIDI from the sibelius that as it seems to me have no workaround. One is some type of sluttering the rythm as it get stucked and the plays back fast and sync. ( This for me is a little rare as Sibelius updated in 2019 version it get a little better )
The second is that you will have midi Jitter and there is nothing you can do. I have here more or less 30ms of tempo variation the midi that should be on time. This 30ms are totally random. Changing the buffer size to the highest may lead to better results tho.

But for me it is Rare the first problem now. And the second one is some ms that I can deal with. And when exporting the MIDI it will be on time.

It is in my to do quarentine list do a video of sibelius and reaper sync I will post here.

I do some steps different from the writer of the thread tho. I don't put the sibelius track in record mode and allow it Anticipate FX. Then in a track reciving the MIDI from sibelius I put an MIDI delay as the messages get too early.

If you can record an video we could assist you more I think! there is this problems that I described that are impossible for us to resolve ( I think/ but wish to be wrong ) or that might be a setting you are doing wrong.

Thx!

Last edited by daniellumertz; 05-27-2020 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 07-12-2020, 09:20 PM   #50
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Default Reaper midi to Sibelius

Reaper: Hardware Output set to a LoopMidi port.
Sibelius: assign that port as input, in preferences.
Reaper: set track "Record output" to MIDI

Noteperformer voices in Sibelius are now available from Reaper.

Voices need to be setup manually in the Play tab's Setup menu, per channel.
Then in the Mixer, they can be manipulated per stave; Initial Channel and Initial Playback device must be visible as windows on the mixer (there's a button that cycles through changes in the mixer size) Set Playback device to one of the NotePerformer options;THEN set the channel;THEN change the Playback device to "auto".
There seems to be nothing you can do in Reaper to send a channel change.

Last edited by tapcity; 07-12-2020 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:34 AM   #51
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Default Trying to get the MIDI from Sibelius

Hello Soli,

I see this thread is from some years ago, so I hope it is still active. I am a composer and working on some pieces for solo-instrument (to be played live) with soundtrack. I use Reaper to make the soundtrack, and it would be great if I could send the MIDI from Sibelius into Reaper. So far I meticulously followed your instructions in the first post, but I cannot get it to work. There is no way I can select the input as you showed: I installed loopMIDI, everything in Sib looks exactly as you showed. But in Reaper I cannot select "input Mono: loopMIDI" because all I see is "Input 1" and "Input 2"
I must have made a mistake somewhere...
Can you help me out?
Of course I could go back to the way I made the first piece, using the audio from Sib as Rewire. But I would love to use MIDI input.
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Old 11-26-2020, 09:09 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fransjv54 View Post
Hello Soli,

I see this thread is from some years ago, so I hope it is still active. I am a composer and working on some pieces for solo-instrument (to be played live) with soundtrack. I use Reaper to make the soundtrack, and it would be great if I could send the MIDI from Sibelius into Reaper. So far I meticulously followed your instructions in the first post, but I cannot get it to work. There is no way I can select the input as you showed: I installed loopMIDI, everything in Sib looks exactly as you showed. But in Reaper I cannot select "input Mono: loopMIDI" because all I see is "Input 1" and "Input 2"
I must have made a mistake somewhere...
Can you help me out?
Of course I could go back to the way I made the first piece, using the audio from Sib as Rewire. But I would love to use MIDI input.

I think you didn't enabled loop midi in Reaper preferences - Midi devices .
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Old 12-07-2020, 02:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daniellumertz View Post
I think you didn't enabled loop midi in Reaper preferences - Midi devices .

This! I have the same impression...


Hello Fransjv54 and everyone, and sorry for the delay... Actually, as time passed by, I have moved on and changed my workflow completely, as I wrote above (with the only difference being that now everything is done in Linux, by the way).



I honestly think that those interested in the Sibelius-Reaper workflow have to take it as it is now, with all its pros and cons. I even think that rewire itself is deprecated as a protocol (am I wrong?) and it never received too much attention anyway, neither from Avid nor Cockos. Hence, the notorious timing issues (particularly when you stack a lot of instruments in an orchestral/pseudo-orchestral context) will most probably never be fixed at all. It's a trade-off : you get a gorgeous visual environment and workflow to write your music (with all the bells and whistles from Sib), but you have to live with timing/sync issues that range from quite subtle to - potentially - really noticeable. I don't really recommend it anymore, but I leave this thread as it is since it may be the best way for others...
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Old 12-07-2020, 07:26 PM   #54
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Yeah Rewire sucks hahahah, unfortunately . The MIDI protocool adds too much jitter in it.

I made some tests concerning REAPER and Sibelius and ableton Live and sibelius.

I think the amount of MIDI comming doesn't affect, or at least not in my tests with a LOT of MIDI. The time will always have these fluctuations using rewire, that said I use an different technique that I measured and lead to better results I think. Basically:

1) Put Sibelius in a Track in Rewire, don't put the track in record or monitor it, leave that off.
2) Make the connections using the loopMIDI to an track in REAPER, that track put in record and monitor.
--- The MIDI messages will come muuuuch earlier then they should (because sibelius rewire is with anticipating FX on) , NOW you need to measure how much earlier they are arriving( more or less because there always be a jitter)
3) add an MIDI delay plugin in the track ( these como with reaper) with the amount you measured.
4) Connect that track to the instrument tracks .
This will still have the jitter and the Stutter problem ( jitter is some random timming issued in the midi messages arriving and the stutter sibelius simply stutter ).

Using different buffersizes will lead to different timming to delay. here 1024 is the best value in reaper and 256 in ableton Live.

Some pics of my tests

( 100% would be all on the grid lines, I made an clutter sibelius file just to send a LOT of 32th midi notes see how it handles)
edit: for timing reference each of these 32th grid divisions have more or less 64ms


Reaper 6 messages comparasion different buffer sizes

This method + 1024 reaper is almost 100% right, unless it stutter.Less than 256 is not usable

In ableton Live 256 is very good option better than 1024 lol.
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Old 12-07-2020, 07:27 PM   #55
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That said, I am making an script ( and a plugin in sibelius and musescore ) that might be helpfull for all here more news soon
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Old 12-08-2020, 10:27 AM   #56
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Well, it seems you've nailed the issue... And the script thing will certainly be awesome! Although I may be working with other workflow nowadays, I thank you so much, nevertheless, for your contributions! They will be certainly much appreciated, if not by a majority of users, at least among a hardcore group of people that need to write the music in the first instance - just like me -. While I have developed my own way with Reaper/Musescore (which is mostly based in the way Sibelius handles the basic notation), I have to acknowledge that Sibelius is, at least for my taste, the most elegant and fluid environment for writing music that I have tried (cannot speak for Dorico, though, since I haven't tried it).


Thanks again, and if you think that I have put something utterly wrong in the instructions of this thread, just point it out and I'll correct it...
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Old 01-10-2021, 02:46 AM   #57
Fransjv54
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Default Trying to get the MIDI from Sibelius

Hi Soli and Daniel,

Thanks for all your (to me being a digidummy rocketscience like) findings and suggestions. I decided in December to just use the audio from Sib in Reaper, since I needed to get on with writing music. Now I am in the stage of having to finish the piece (it is for live piano with a soundtrack) and it would be great to use the midi from Sib in Reaper.
So enabling the Loopmidi in Reaper will probably work, I am going to do that right now.
All the best from the Netherlands! And thanks again!
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Old 01-10-2021, 03:37 AM   #58
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If you have questions please post here.

If you already finished your music in sibelius you can export;import to reaper the MIDI. I see the rewire more as a tool to use while you are composing, but it frustanting with little timming errors !


But GOOOD NEW!



My script is almost at an release version, I am just testing some new features to it.


(in the image when the item turns green I glued it so it won't updates and I can take on edits on reaper) (to reupdates is just redrag the pink item over!)

oh, and it work with any software that can export MIDI !
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Old 01-10-2021, 06:24 AM   #59
Fransjv54
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Default Trying to get the MIDI from Sibelius

Hi there, life can be much more simple... enabling the LoopMIDI in preferences did the trick.
Nice!
Now i fear my computer is not strong enough to handle two samplers (Kontakt and Independence) plus Rewired Sibelius.... The midi output from Sib is sent to two pianotracks in Independence, furthermore Kontakt is used for soundeffects, and then there are some tracks playing audiosamples. And now Sibelius stutters badly...

I have a Windows 10 computer with i3 processor and 6 GB RAM.
Should that work well or is it too weak?

Best, Frans
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Old 01-10-2021, 02:52 PM   #60
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I don't know which gen is your i3 so no way to know. But it should be more than fine ! I think the stutter are from the rewire itself if you can rise your buffer size see if it gets better .
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:25 AM   #61
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That sounds promising.... :-)
How and where should i do that?

Thnx!
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Old 01-22-2021, 06:49 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fransjv54 View Post
That sounds promising.... :-)
How and where should i do that?

Thnx!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z-0...=TheREAPERBlog
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Old 01-22-2021, 06:50 AM   #63
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For people wanting to test my script is already done, I need to make an video explaining the basics of it and then I will post here at the forum !

If you want to use it follow this instructions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ytIhExkglbvgpI
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