Old 02-11-2016, 07:43 AM   #1
Andy F
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Default Ableton Link Support

Because I'm using Reaper & Ableton Live and some IOS Apps side by side, it would be really great if Reaper would support the great new Ableton Link Protocol to synconize them all together.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:48 AM   #2
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I'm totally with you on this!
Would be really amazing to sync all iOS apps to reaper with ease and also sync Reaper & Live in a reliable way.
The SDK is free, so it should not be too hard I guess, but really just guessing.
Would be interesting to hear what the DEVs say/think about this topic
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Old 02-11-2016, 11:39 AM   #3
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Very interesting, highly wanted !
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:30 PM   #4
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+1 please cockos
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasombre View Post
The SDK is free, so it should not be too hard I guess, but really just guessing.
Would be interesting to hear what the DEVs say/think about this topic
The SDK is free for IOS, Reaper is not IOS, so guessing it may not be too hard could be way off the mark.
Personally i would say this unlikely to get support in Reaper.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:25 AM   #6
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You can try this as an intermediate solution: https://alexandernaut.com/linktomidi/

Connect your iOS Ableton Link enabled App to your Mac or PC via network MIDI. Since I run Reaper on a PC I use rtpMIDI. Mac has this functionality built in already (CoreMIDI). In Reaper sync to external time code (right click play button) and choose SPP.

Now you should be able to play your instruments on your iOS device in sync with Reaper. Could be fun when doing loop based stuff, e.g. using session view in Reaper via Playtime.
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Old 09-14-2016, 01:19 PM   #7
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Ableton has open sourced a cross-platform API: https://ableton.github.io/link/
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Old 09-15-2016, 12:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fladd View Post
Ableton has open sourced a cross-platform API: https://ableton.github.io/link/
Just wanted to add that it is licensed unter GPL, which means you cannot use it in a non-GPL software (like Reaper). You still need to contact Ableton for a specific licencse, for which I guess they want to see some money.
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Old 09-15-2016, 02:07 AM   #9
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If we had Ableton Link supported, would it mean that we coule have Ableton set up as the master clock, and Reaper slaved to it ?
This would interest me a lot, as Ableton can be synced to an external hardware sequencer (and not Reaper), but i enjoy Reaper more for mixing.
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Old 09-15-2016, 04:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic View Post
If we had Ableton Link supported, would it mean that we coule have Ableton set up as the master clock, and Reaper slaved to it ?
This would interest me a lot, as Ableton can be synced to an external hardware sequencer (and not Reaper), but i enjoy Reaper more for mixing.
There is no "Master" with Link. You can start stop on any device.
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Old 09-15-2016, 08:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic View Post
If we had Ableton Link supported, would it mean that we coule have Ableton set up as the master clock, and Reaper slaved to it ?
This would interest me a lot, as Ableton can be synced to an external hardware sequencer (and not Reaper), but i enjoy Reaper more for mixing.
I think rewiring would work better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moss View Post
There is no "Master" with Link. You can start stop on any device.
Fortunately some apps respond to midi message FA (start), so you can start all in sync if you wish.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:31 PM   #12
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Hi, ToneE
Thank you for your answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
No, Reaper can too. Did you try this midi clock vst inside Reaper sending to your hardware?
http://antonsavov.net/cms/projects/as_xc3.html
But Reaper is master then, the hardware sequencer will follow Reaper.
Yes, but this is far from ideal in my setup
I have Pyramid setup as the main brain, the master clock, sending Midi and CV to all my other gear, and i wish i could just launch the playback on Pyramid, and record each track in Reaper, which would follow the master temmpo and transport.
It seems like a very basic scenario (the simplest, even), but i can't.
I don't want to use Reaper as the master clock, as some times (when composing and not recording) i want to work computerless.
Also, Pyramid will soon feature trigger in signal to Midi tempo, and even in my wildest dreams i don't see Reaper haveing such a feature. So, for this reason too, Pyramid would need to be the main clock.

I guess i will have to record the stems in Live (even if i really like Reaper more), and then import them into Reaper, but it's a bad workflow...
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Old 09-19-2016, 04:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moss View Post
Just wanted to add that it is licensed unter GPL, which means you cannot use it in a non-GPL software (like Reaper). You still need to contact Ableton for a specific licencse, for which I guess they want to see some money.
It might not be money, but I guess we could ask and see.

Or, better yet, someone could dump the network protocol and we could build something to that...
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Old 09-19-2016, 06:36 PM   #14
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ooh, i'm so excited to see how they cripple this feature in ableton lite!
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Old 09-20-2016, 11:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
It might not be money, but I guess we could ask and see.

Or, better yet, someone could dump the network protocol and we could build something to that...
Whooo, yessss! +++
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:48 PM   #16
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Whooo, yessss! +++

This would be an amazing add for Reaper!
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:54 PM   #17
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link support would be super cool
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Old 09-22-2016, 07:59 AM   #18
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+1 from me, if Reaper linked with Ableton it would be great news
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Old 10-06-2016, 02:32 PM   #19
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Default +1

+1 It would also be great if this helped with jitter.
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Old 10-09-2016, 12:52 AM   #20
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Oh yeah +1

Midi is a year older than i am, link will undoubtedly become the new sync standard. Perhaps this wont be too difficult with the new cross platform C++ link libraries and Reapers Extension SDK.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:44 AM   #21
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Yes please, NI are adding it to Maschine, and if Reaper had it, it would be a great alternative to midi sync
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Old 10-13-2016, 03:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
+1 It would also be great if this helped with jitter.
REAPER 5.27 will have some pretty nice MIDI jitter improvements that are based on similar techniques to what's in the Link code.
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Old 10-16-2016, 05:16 AM   #23
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so who could dump that network protocol asj Justin mentioned?
I'm not a coder but I'm eager to help if instructions are clear.
Would really love to connect my Live to my main-horse Reaper

I'm quite excited about a possible ReaLive future
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Old 10-18-2016, 05:00 AM   #24
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Please, devs consider adding Ableton link. As a forward thinking DAW, this is essential for modern workflows between iPad apps, Ableton and other linked applications.
It means I would be able to use Push alongside Reaper, something that can't be achieved using Rewire.
You would get great free promotion on the Ableton website too, so it would be good for Reaper and the users all round.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:27 AM   #25
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Default Ableton Link dump

Hi Justin,

please find attached a dump of an Ableton Link session.

I've recorded it with help of Little Snitch, but it's a regular pcap and is fully compatible with wireshark.
You can find a raw dump as well as a translated one in plain text using wethom's lua evaluation for wireshark.

The information this guy is sharing via github looks useful:
https://github.com/westhom/AbletonLinkProtocol

Link is a UDP protocol that uses the multicast group 224.76.78.75 (last 3 octets spell "LNK" in ASCII), port 20808.
Link clients join + leave the multicast group via IGMP.

Official Ableton Link github:
https://github.com/Ableton/link


Official Ableton Link description:
https://ableton.github.io/link/


I really hope this could be of a help.
If you need any assistance in testing, please let me know,...


cheers,
nean
Attached Files
File Type: zip ableton-link-dump.zip (62.0 KB, 60 views)

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Old 12-18-2016, 05:20 AM   #26
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I would also be interested in this.

:-)
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Old 12-29-2016, 01:08 AM   #27
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yes, pretty please.
to me the ableton link protocol would be of great use within reaper, too.

cheers,
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Old 12-29-2016, 01:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moss View Post
it is licensed unter GPL, which means you cannot use it in a non-GPL software (like Reaper).
Not really.
GPL forces that the source code of any software based on / using the published source code is published. More clearly: GPL is "Sticky" meaning that any of the said software products needs to be released under GPL, as well.

But obviously there are limits. Linux is GPLed, and with "strong" GPL thinking, any software that runs on Linux, "uses" it and hence needs to be GPLed, as well. This obviously is not intended by (most of) the Linux contributors.

That is why there is "LGLP" ("Lesser GPL") that can be used without any stickyness. E.g. "Header" files that describe how Linux is to be used, are LGPL and can freely be "included" in any "propriety" software. Otherwise Linux would not be usable at all.

It is debatable, but the common interpretation is that the stickyness is only applicable when using the source code itself or when doing a "static" linking. I.e. the GPLed intellectual property is used inside the distributed product and hence redistributed.

So you can do a DLL (i.e a Reaper extension) that includes LGPLed source code and release same under GPL (providing the complete source code). This would not affect Reaper's license (unless same prevents releasing Extension as GPL <with VST, GPLing code that uses this API is (or has been ?) prevented by non-disclosure terms, even though Steinberg will send you the header files after a free registration with them as a developer> ). OTOH, this GPLed DLL can use your propriety DLLs, if you want to.

Justin: Does the Reaper License feature non-disclosure terms that prevent GPLing a Reaper extension using the API ?

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Old 12-29-2016, 02:13 AM   #29
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Not really.
GPL forces that the source code of any software based on / using the published source code is published. More clearly: GPL is "Sticky" meaning that any of the said software products needs to be released under GPL, as well.

But obviously there are limits. Linux is GPLed, and with "strong" GPL thinking, any software that runs on Linux "uses" it and hence needs to be GPLed, as well.

That is why there is "LGLP" ("Lesser GPL") that can be used without any stickyness. E.g. "Header" files that describe how Linux is to be used are LGPL and can freely be "included" in any "propriety" software. Otherwise Linux would not be usable at all.

It is debatable, but the common interpretation is that the stickyness is only applicable when using the source code itself or when doing a "static" linking. I.e. the GPLed intellectual property is used inside the distributed product and hence redistributed.

So you can do a DLL (i.e a Reaper extension) that includes LGPLed source code and release same under GPL (providing the complete source code). This would affect neither Reaper's license (unless same prevents releasing Extension as GPL - with VST GPLing code that uses this API is (or has been ?) prevented by non-disclosure terms). OTOH, this GPLed DLL can use your propriety DLLs, if you want to.

-Michaelk


Hi Michael,


don't think that we need to start a GPL debate here.
First, Link is a protocol and part of Ableton Live and you might know Ableton Live is not GPL.
According to your argumentation Ableton itself would violate GPL of its own code?

Refer to Ableton Link Github page https://github.com/Ableton/link#license it is dual licensed :
Quote:
Ableton Link is dual licensed under GPLv2+ and a proprietary license. If you would like to incorporate Link into a proprietary software application, please contact link-devs@ableton.com.

The Link protocol is more or less "open", that means Cockos can implement the Link protocol on their own way, like without using code fragments that is under GPL.
I've done some investigation, and dump of the communication via Link protocol and it looks feasible and easy to integrate.


Not sure about the Reaper code basis, but I assume the effort for them to re-code it and follow the Link protocol specification might be the same as to fudge 3rd party code into Reaper (that might have other disadvantages )

So please let the Reaper dev's decide if, what and how to implement it, before starting a controverse debate in upfront.



regards,
nean

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Old 12-29-2016, 04:13 AM   #30
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Its Reaper. Its pretty technical, it needs to work more of the features it allready has, we dont need more features lol seriosuly? First it would be nice to have user friendly daw that makes sense . If they keep adding and adding ,it ´will be insane.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germps112 View Post
If they keep adding and adding ,it ´will be insane.
And require employing lots of software specialists for developing and maintaining the thing resulting in not being able to get on with the user friendly licensing model.

That is what is great about reaper. With many desirable stuff "They" (Cockos) don't need to develop/add it. There are lots of APIs (interfaces) software designers can use to enhance Reaper without the help of the core developers.

Without this feature I would not be able to use it at all (as a Live "instrument" playing a complex setup of VSTs with my Masterkeyboard(s) using a headless PC (e.g. on stage). Here even the term "user friendly daw" does not make any sense in the meaning it is usually used in this world dominated by users doing mixing or Midi sequencing.

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Old 12-29-2016, 04:38 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germps112 View Post
Its Reaper. Its pretty technical, it needs to work more of the features it allready has, we dont need more features lol seriosuly? First it would be nice to have user friendly daw that makes sense . If they keep adding and adding ,it ´will be insane.
it's not that big change or feature as I do see it, but as I mentioned I let it up to Cockos to decide.

personally, I'm convinced LINK would be a great value to Reaper as it would fix synchronisation to Ableton and possibly other DAW's.
Not, because Cockos has not implemented traditional synchronisation properly, or it has bugs!

Don't get me wrong, but in the field, to my experience nothing works better than link, even over wifi you can sync up to multiple laptops, hosts, apps or whatever, it just works.

Mates out there who tried to sync ableton to reaper or sync separate hosts, know what I mean.
I tried everything, mtc, ssp, and more, over wifi, ethernet,... but in the end I was connecting 2 computers via midi to send midi clock over it, and not even then the clock was stable, It's so sad!
With link you get the correct tempo with the first packet and both stick to it.

We have now a live electronic setup, including 2 computers several synths, midi drums, guitar, bass, x32, metric halo uln2,... all connected to each other.
Main sync is done via link over ableton, on the 2nd host ableton is just used to get synced.
Reaper is used as live rig for advanced midi and audio routing and fx.
If Reaper would speak LINK it would be perfect.

cheers,
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nean View Post
Hi Michael,


don't think that we need to start a GPL debate here.
First, Link is a protocol and part of Ableton Live and you might know Ableton Live is not GPL.
According to your argumentation Ableton itself would violate GPL of its own code?

Refer to Ableton Link Github page https://github.com/Ableton/link#license it is dual licensed :



The Link protocol is more or less "open", that means Cockos can implement the Link protocol on their own way, like without using code fragments that is under GPL.
I've done some investigation, and dump of the communication via Link protocol and it looks feasible and easy to integrate.


Not sure about the Reaper code basis, but I assume the effort for them to re-code it and follow the Link protocol specification might be the same as to fudge 3rd party code into Reaper (that might have other disadvantages )

So please let the Reaper dev's decide if, what and how to implement it, before starting a controverse debate in upfront.



regards,
nean
So u think that they dont like another extra couple of 1000 users on reaper By making some litte changes in midi and stuff to make it more acceptable for midi and some modulation options? Is it just bescouse they want to be just Cockos, or they dont care about selling licences and make the program more friendly to use, it seem to have everytihng for audio, recording. But midi is a bit outdated. iknow there are script, but they are so funny to set up, and one wants to create music, not scratch the head and think how can i make the workflow better each day.. Dont get me wrong its promising daw, but some Basic midi features... its not the ATARI days anymore
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Old 12-29-2016, 05:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germps112 View Post
So u think that they dont like another extra couple of 1000 users on reaper By making some litte changes in midi and stuff to make it more acceptable for midi and some modulation options? Is it just bescouse they want to be just Cockos, or they dont care about selling licences and make the program more friendly to use, it seem to have everytihng for audio, recording. But midi is a bit outdated. iknow there are script, but they are so funny to set up, and one wants to create music, not scratch the head and think how can i make the workflow better each day.. Dont get me wrong its promising daw, but some Basic midi features... its not the ATARI days anymore
I'd never blame cockos, they do just a perfect job, much better than other daw vendors.

It's just the sync over midi that is frustrating for me and not state of the art, and yes the 80ies 8-bit protocol has to die in my opinion.
Link is just one step further and offers a state of the art syncing via ethernet/wifi, and it works great.
OSC, would be a great replacement for midi, thanks to cockos it is implemented in reaper. yeah.

Anyway, pls, let us not get offtopic here, it's about feature request for getting LINK integrated into Reaper, lets hope the devs will pick up this idea ;-)

+1 Link support
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:56 AM   #35
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And require employing lots of software specialists for developing and maintaining the thing resulting in not being able to get on with the user friendly licensing model.
Yeah just like the other ten odd years Reaper has been around where they constantly added features non stop, and had to hire lots of software specialists for developing and maintaining hahahahaha (This is sarcasm by the way), have you been here one week or something ?
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Old 12-29-2016, 07:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Yeah just like the other ten odd years Reaper has been around where they constantly added features non stop, and had to hire lots of software specialists for developing and maintaining hahahahaha (This is sarcasm by the way), have you been here one week or something ?
Yes iam new here.. Still learning, maybe its the fustration of switching daw again, but i give reaper try, it takes time!!
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:06 AM   #37
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It might not be money, but I guess we could ask and see.

Or, better yet, someone could dump the network protocol and we could build something to that...
Any news on this, been looking for live apps for triggering clips on my windows tablet, everything is utter crap compared to Reaper and Playtime though, but i really need Ableton link support on the LAN
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:06 PM   #38
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seems someone has started a poll:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=186133


thanks
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:06 AM   #39
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Just bumping this to hopefully keep it in the developers mindsphere
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:39 AM   #40
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YES! Another bump from me as well! Funny how this seems to have died out, yet it got pretty far with a reply from Justin saying it should be possible and seemed willing to try if provided with a 'dump' (don't know what that means) which Nean provide then later in the thread.
All that is now almost 6 months old so...??
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