Old 03-09-2016, 01:41 PM   #561
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Reaper also got a big advantage in comparison to full blown scoring daws in the fact that its lean and mean, doesnt crash every 15 minutes and doesnt takes half an hour to load, like others do.

There are tons of notation programs out there for making print ready scores.
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:51 PM   #562
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Reaper also got a big advantage in comparison to full blown scoring daws in the fact that its lean and mean, doesnt crash every 15 minutes and doesnt takes half an hour to load, like others do.

There are tons of notation programs out there for making print ready scores.
Sure! ... Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:05 PM   #563
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I think some of the confusion, angst and holy conflagration could have arisen because we're thinking of solving the problem from opposite ends.

Approach #1: put a "crazy low note" in the piano roll to make the right sound, then map it to a "sensible" place on the staff.
Approach #2: place the note "sensibly" where you want it on the staff, assign a notehead, and define a (most likely channel-specific) mapping from there back down to the "crazy low note".

To my mind, Approach #2 is more beneficial, because of the points I outlined just above (such as "channel-safeness", greater freedom of interpretation and the improved workflow of easy re-mapping by changing noteheads), because it allows for many times more mappings than there are actual pitches (and if needed, scripts could easily route the signal to a different channel or bus to cover overflow, if we have that NOTE x y information), and because it hooks into the existing paradigm for decorating note events, which means it has the same look and feel as the other functionality, reducing complexity while increasing potency.

They essentially accomplish the same thing, but one has more scenarios where it is useful and has more "legs", in my opinion.

EDIT: Oh, and there's no reason we can't cover both angles, but Approach #2 is a superset of Approach #1, therefore it could be used under the hood to represent either, depending on your preferred workflow.

Last edited by ijijn; 03-09-2016 at 02:18 PM. Reason: added a thought
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:06 PM   #564
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BTW my post previous was an answer to this :

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The nature and the purpose of the notation is absolutely different from the midi editor. So that it is not correct to expect equally good paper and sound results. To "print" a book and to "print" a CD are just different thinks. So your mockup will sound worse in case you get a correct and clean notation. IMHO.
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Sure! ... Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
Im kind of confused on that point as well. What I mean with accurate notation is just notation I can work with & give to someone to clean up, rather than something that is ready for print. That might be where we have some disagreement, but in the end it doesnt matter, I like all people here on the forum and just ignore me you feel if my opinions are irrelevant.

About your post i probably agree with approach #2 if I understand you correctly

The problem I ran in to before was that I had a piccolo three lines above the staff and keyswitches several lines below and had to choose between showing both keyswitches and high piccolo notes or hide both, and this doesnt feel very practical.

Last edited by mpb2016; 03-09-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:14 PM   #565
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Im kind of confused on that point as well. What I mean with accurate notation is just notation I can work with & give to someone to clean up, rather than something that is ready for print. That might be where we have some disagreement, but in the end it doesnt matter, I like all people here on the forum and just ignore me you feel if my opinions are irrelevant.
Haha it's all good, I hear you.

To be clear, at this point in time, I'm definitely on the side of "let's use notation to make better-sounding music and enhance our DAW-ish workflow" rather than "let's go print our sheet music to share with session musicians and include all the bells and whistles on the page so we can say it's better than Sibelius..."

So far, I think the notation editor is a stellar example of blending the two worlds beautifully with a novel and powerful approach.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:52 PM   #566
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Here's a use case for drums, since this seems to be a focus for many. If a single pitch can utilise multiple different noteheads, which isn't possible with the current system, you can reuse the same core note positions (within the staff) over and over. Drum note notation tends to hang around the staff, without using ledger lines where possible, and you would very quickly run out of notes otherwise with all the different techniques/hits on the same drum, especially in the world of deep sampled virtual kits.
Excellent post. I wanted to talk about this, but then got tripped up by the proto mapping bug.

For the Notation view to translate different articulations of the same drum, that are written on the same staff line, to the correct piano roll pitch, the note head shape needs to be independent or additional to the simple MIDI note # map.

Multiple piano roll pitches may need to converge on a single percussion clef stave.
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Old 03-09-2016, 03:04 PM   #567
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I was figuring the solution Schwa was working towards is a bidirectional mapping database that allows this approach from either end.

If you insert a note on the percussion stave on a position that two or more MIDI notes are mapped to, it would default to one of them, and vertical note movement with the mouse or numpad keys would scroll through the other mapped MIDI articulations (eg open/half/closed hihat). That's not rocket science to create from a mapping table.

It might get slightly more involved if the mapping source was a MIDI trigger articulation and a CC04 value was needed for the degree of HH "openess", but it's not insurmountable. The UX logic just needs to be thrashed out to make it workflow-friendly (trigger is the HH note from electronic kits that uses the plate hit and pedal CC04 combined to determine the HH sound).

Disappointed that the note mapping has been deferred, but it's the right decision for now...


Edit: maybe this discussion needs to be in Schwa's Notation editor and special MIDI handling thread...



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Old 03-09-2016, 03:33 PM   #568
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it would default to one of them, and vertical note movement with the mouse or numpad keys would scroll through the other mapped MIDI articulations (eg open/half/closed hihat).
That would certainly be a preferred workflow. And right again, we should be on the other thread.
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #569
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BTW my post previous was an answer to this : ...

Im kind of confused on that point as well. What I mean with accurate notation is just notation I can work with & give to someone to clean up, rather than something that is ready for print. That might be where we have some disagreement, but in the end it doesnt matter, I like all people here on the forum and just ignore me you feel if my opinions are irrelevant.

About your post i probably agree with approach #2 if I understand you correctly

The problem I ran in to before was that I had a piccolo three lines above the staff and keyswitches several lines below and had to choose between showing both keyswitches and high piccolo notes or hide both, and this doesnt feel very practical.
Haha, indeed. Sorry, it was the old sneaky post coming in-between trick!

And regarding the piccolo and keyswitches, I feel your pain!

The clunkiness of keyswitches, having to use a ridiculously inconvenient non-zoomy zoom to see everything at once and having to drag everything around together (and then forgetting to do that every time because after zooming in to do some work on notes at a vaguely visible scale you always forget they're down there), is the catalyst that inspired me to explore scripting in the first place.
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Old 03-09-2016, 06:26 PM   #570
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The problem I ran in to before was that I had a piccolo three lines above the staff and keyswitches several lines below and had to choose between showing both keyswitches and high piccolo notes or hide both, and this doesnt feel very practical.
I think, in the fullness of time (I hope, once again...) that the 'number of ledger lines to hide/show' will be configurable. Anothre example is guitar, where the bass notes may have up to 4 ledger lines, and then keyswitches in the articulation.
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:36 PM   #571
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The problem I ran in to before was that I had a piccolo three lines above the staff and keyswitches several lines below and had to choose between showing both keyswitches and high piccolo notes or hide both, and this doesnt feel very practical.
Another possible solution is to put your keyswitches in a separate item on the same track. That way you can easily hide the keyswitches without affecting the notes.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:21 PM   #572
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Default note division script

Hi, I tried to make "note division" action with Reascript Lua. I put the code in another thread (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=174008), if you are interested. See the example picture.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:57 PM   #573
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Default FR: An option to snap pitch cursor to current scale

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Originally Posted by mpb2016 View Post
I like all people here on the forum and just ignore me you feel if my opinions are irrelevant.
Dear mpb2016,
That's great! I hope you understand me correctly. I like your opinion! Sorry if my post hurts you!

Dear schwa,
Pleas add an option to snap pitch cursor to current scale.
It would be useful if one uses actions like this: "Step input: Insert note at current +01 semitones".
Please let the actions "Edit: Decrease (increase) pitch cursor one semitone" obey the chosen scale as well. It will not be "one semitone" in this case actually . So maybe additional actions : "Decrease (increase) pitch cursor one Scale Step" wold be better.

I am very excited about the "track list" area in the notation editor. Are you planning to developed it? I wonder if it will be possible display several tracks on a single staff?

Thanks!
All the best!

Last edited by ReaDim; 03-09-2016 at 11:03 PM. Reason: mistake
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:41 AM   #574
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I'm arranging and producing a project at the moment, one in which I had hoped to use the notation editor for notating the musician's parts, but not being able to save or print prevented this. There were about 50 individual parts I had to manually copy, paste & re-edit into Musescore via MIDI export/import, quite a chore. While we are on the subject of "session mathematics", this conversion process probably took an average of one hour per part, is error prone, and involves re-doing a lot of work already done in reaper in terms of dynamics, keyswitched articulations, etc. Because of the duplication of effort I do not feel justified in charging clients for much of this time. That's a week I could find far more productive things to do in!

In spare moments I've been following this thread, trying the new Reaper notation editor and find it excellent. Note entry is really good, far more intuitive than Musescore. I'm amazed at how much good stuff you have in it already, and here, finally is my point;

From what I can see from the pre releases and discussion here, you may be close to getting the Reaper notation editor to the point where I may not have had to export to Musescore at all for this particular phase of the project, which is professional musicians recording under my supervision. For this, the notation doesn't have to be "presentation ready", just readable and correct. Just about everything seems there, and the notehead menu is a huge part of this for drum notation and improv slashes, and just plain hearing what I've written.

So great work developers, and hopefully I can shave a week off the schedule for the next project of this type. I am sure I would not be the only person who will benefit from this.

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Old 03-10-2016, 02:38 AM   #575
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When importing midi would be fine display different tuplets/n-sillos (5,7,11, etc.) Also that could be created in the score. There are many scores with irregular groups. Thank you very much for your great work!

(Sorry my bad English!)
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Old 03-10-2016, 03:02 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Another possible solution is to put your keyswitches in a separate item on the same track. That way you can easily hide the keyswitches without affecting the notes.
Yes, i'll try that, thanks.

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Dear mpb2016,
That's great! I hope you understand me correctly. I like your opinion! Sorry if my post hurts you!
All good
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:49 PM   #577
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I don't know the ways of coding but is it possible to make this interface smarter? For example, a simple construct visible in Piano Roll like this:



is displayed in the Score Editor like this:



while any sensible musician would just write it like this:

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Old 03-12-2016, 04:12 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Skrzypiec View Post
I don't know the ways of coding but is it possible to make this interface smarter? For example, a simple construct visible in Piano Roll like this:

...

is displayed in the Score Editor like this:

...

while any sensible musician would just write it like this:

...
If you set the lower notes to "low voice" and the high note to "high voice", they will beamed and slurred separately, as in your bottom picture.
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Old 03-13-2016, 03:15 AM   #579
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I suppose that, right now, this is not possible to be completely transcribed in Reaper, isn´t it? (I refer to the 11 and 22 tuplets in this excerpt from Chopin´s Nocturne Op 9 nº 1, another "hardcore" piece from 19th century´s repertoire):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4lntb2atpd...cerpt.png?dl=0

This is quite common in piano literature. It may serve as an example of custom tuplets usage, supporting what I said a couple of pages ago.

Another thing I´d like to remind, in support of a FR in the beginning of the thread, is the great usefulness of being able to display the different views of MIDI editor (notation, piano roll, event list) at the same time. Writing and programming at the same time can be a breeze with such a functionality...
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Old 03-13-2016, 08:22 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
I suppose that, right now, this is not possible to be completely transcribed in Reaper, isn´t it? (I refer to the 11 and 22 tuplets in this excerpt from Chopin´s Nocturne Op 9 nº 1, another "hardcore" piece from 19th century´s repertoire):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4lntb2atpd...cerpt.png?dl=0

This is quite common in piano literature. It may serve as an example of custom tuplets usage, supporting what I said a couple of pages ago.

Another thing I´d like to remind, in support of a FR in the beginning of the thread, is the great usefulness of being able to display the different views of MIDI editor (notation, piano roll, event list) at the same time. Writing and programming at the same time can be a breeze with such a functionality...
Thanks! +1
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:01 AM   #581
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If you set the lower notes to "low voice" and the high note to "high voice", they will beamed and slurred separately, as in your bottom picture.
Yes, but that takes an extra operation each time. It would be better if we could set an option in preferences like "split voices in upper and lower if just one note is off", also other conditions could apply.

I also wonder if it would be possible to quantize the score layout while not quantizing the piano roll. You know, for example you want the strings to fade in a little bit earlier than on the 1st beat in measure, so you indicate that in Piano Roll but there's no point to transfer it into the score.
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Old 03-13-2016, 01:33 PM   #582
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Hi all, I'm not using the beta version of Reaper so I didn't use notation editor but I have a question for you?

Is there actually a way to display correct notation on legato notes or notes that do not begin exactly on a beat?

For example if I have something like this:



How can I display correctly those notes on the notation editor?

I hope you understand, I'm sorry if I made some language mistake.

Thank you.
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Old 03-13-2016, 08:11 PM   #583
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Hi all, I'm not using the beta version of Reaper so I didn't use notation editor but I have a question for you?

Is there actually a way to display correct notation on legato notes or notes that do not begin exactly on a beat?

For example if I have something like this:

...

How can I display correctly those notes on the notation editor?

I hope you understand, I'm sorry if I made some language mistake.

Thank you.
The notation editor has a variety of 'display quantization' settings, and it will display your example very nicely if you set the quantization to 1/8 or 1/16.

Last edited by juliansader; 03-13-2016 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:10 AM   #584
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The notation editor has a variety of 'display quantization' settings, and it will display your example very nicely if you set the quantization to 1/8 or 1/16.
Oh great, thank you.

Will be there a dedicated thread like this once it's released?
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:39 AM   #585
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Hoping we can update the note heads to look like this


The note head lines up with the stem

Right now in Reaper it looks like this




Rhythm slashes without note heads "option" would be huge for jazz charts or any genre actually.




https://www.finalemusic.com/UserManu...le/Slashes.htm

also REALLY nice.. the option to hide tempo, bar numbers and all of that

Now imagine if we could make and load custom plugins in text format like we can with actions and extensions... imagine something like SWS extensions for the Notation editor.....

Like this

http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html

would be incredible
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:20 AM   #586
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Rhythm slashes without note heads "option" would be huge for jazz charts or any genre actually.
...
also REALLY nice.. the option to hide tempo, bar numbers and all of that
Such features would lean strongly toward 'sheet music publishing' instead of 'sequencing workflow'. Given that Schwa has limited time to code everything, I suggest that it may be more optimal to:
1) Let REAPER's MIDI features focus on sequencing workflow.
2) Add a good export functionality for MusicXML, so that sheet music can be polished and perfected in Musescore, Sibelius or Finale.

On the subject of visibility and hiding stuff... For sequencing workflow, I suggest:
1) Notation view: Region and marker visibility (and hopefully CC lanes can also be reintroduced eventually).
2) Piano roll view: We need a way to hide all tempo change markers that are not time signature changes - similar to how the notation editor displays only time signature changes above the staff, not all the tempo changes. When a MIDI file has lots and lots of tempo changes, it becomes difficult to find the handful of time signature changes among all the indistinguishable and overlapping tempo markers.
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:28 AM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Such features would lean strongly toward 'sheet music publishing' instead of 'sequencing workflow'. Given that Schwa has limited time to code everything, I suggest that it may be more optimal to:
1) Let REAPER's MIDI features focus on sequencing workflow.
2) Add a good export functionality for MusicXML, so that sheet music can be polished and perfected in Musescore, Sibelius or Finale.

...

Would still be very useful (for 5.20, or at some point soon after) to be able to print useable pdf or paper copies straight from REAPER for local use without resorting to a separate score program. Certainly in agreement that MusicXML needs to be on the feature list though



>
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Old 03-14-2016, 11:32 AM   #588
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Very useful. Agreed
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:29 PM   #589
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.
2) Add a good export functionality for MusicXML, so that sheet music can be polished and perfected in Musescore, Sibelius or Finale.

That would be simply wonderful....
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:11 PM   #590
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FR - export to lilypond! libre - open source and great output without any fiddling...
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:21 PM   #591
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FR - export to lilypond! libre - open source and great output without any fiddling...
If I am not mistaken, Lilypond can import MusicXML using a built-in converter command, musicxml2ly.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:05 PM   #592
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Direction symbols and Rhythm slashes

deleted other post because the pics took up too much space on this page.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:45 PM   #593
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Clef and key signature changes should not be per item. We should be able to change them at any bar within the item, really. That's how actual notation works.
I think a basic like this is fairly important at the moment. Considering that keysigs are now being chased better
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:47 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by memyselfandus View Post
deleted other post because the pics took up too much space on this page.
Appreciated.
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:34 PM   #595
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key signature changes per item is super useful though. Options rule. that's part of why reaper rules. you can almost always find a way to do something.

if we are at some point able to create and load custom actions or extensions like you can with SWS.. but for notation and composing functions....

stuff like this
http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html

Reaper would be incredibly powerful. beyond belief. and it would be mostly user created.
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:16 PM   #596
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'Items' are a REAPER construct.

Clefs need to be able to be arbitrarily placed.
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:22 PM   #597
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as an option
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:08 PM   #598
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No, by default. Unless you mean whatever you were talking about, then maybe.
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:38 PM   #599
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I'm saying key signature changes per item is super useful. as an option. I don't care if it's set to default.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:16 AM   #600
hamish
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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I'm only interested in arbitrary Clef changes at any bar of any track or item, as a core capablility.
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