Old 03-15-2016, 03:32 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Such features would lean strongly toward 'sheet music publishing' instead of 'sequencing workflow'. Given that Schwa has limited time to code everything, I suggest that it may be more optimal to:
1) Let REAPER's MIDI features focus on sequencing workflow.
2) Add a good export functionality for MusicXML, so that sheet music can be polished and perfected in Musescore, Sibelius or Finale.
We're going to propose features and Schwa, who knows the coding side of things, will assess them to determine whether an apparently easy feature might take a week's work, or a seemingly massive request could be relatively trivial to implement. My own opinion is that I see little value in us artificially imposing limitations or distinctions like that in advance - the normal process of feature request, assessment and then rejection or implementation will do just fine in shaping what this will become.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:38 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by memyselfandus View Post
Direction symbols and Rhythm slashes

deleted other post because the pics took up too much space on this page.


Thank you. makes it very difficult on mobile devices, so much appreciated.



>
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Old 03-15-2016, 05:39 AM   #603
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Great and ingenious work. Many thanks. But I think all the rests are not required to look at a real score. They durations of notes are relative and interpreted by the musician. It would be very useful option to clean the score filling the rest going after the duration of the notes. Clean rests.

Sorry my poor English. I hope you understand me. And above all my thanks to appreciate.

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Old 03-15-2016, 08:47 AM   #604
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I have another question.

Will be there a manual for the notation editor? Or an addition to the actual manual?

Thanks.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:57 AM   #605
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I have another question.

Will be there a manual for the notation editor? Or an addition to the actual manual?

Thanks.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=172793

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...oGuidePre5.pdf
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:39 AM   #606
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Yes, search the actions list, MIDI editor section, for "notation page".
Hi Schwa,
I need Continuous view !
I'm testing v5.0pre21, nothing like "notation page" in my action list - MIDI editor section...
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:45 PM   #607
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A question : is there any action to move things like tuplet denominators, slurs or other score objects above and/or below the staff? (I canīt find it in the action list) If you look at the image in the link I have posted here : http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...90&postcount=7, for example, I havenīt been able to move the denominator to avoid collision with the low voice...

(Excuse me if this was commented somewhere else, I havenīt found it...)
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Old 03-15-2016, 01:54 PM   #608
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Thank you.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:44 AM   #609
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still testing reapers notation from time to time the way my pupils would "test" it: clicking wildly around and then dragging arround some notelengths.

It's still very easy to completely destroy 4/4 measures this way. The measure length sould not change when changing the length of the notes inside...

I hope this is not too difficult to solve...

with best regards

Martin
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:11 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by MCCY View Post
he measure length sould not change when changing the length of the notes inside...
Not sure what you mean?
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:14 AM   #611
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Another feature that would be quite useful (and havenīt been able to find in the action list):

- Clef changes in the middle of the staff : Many parts simply cannot be written with just a single clef at the beginning of the staff.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:21 AM   #612
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Not sure what you mean?
see attached images... even in the first picture the measure is not 4/4... when changing length of the second note it becomes more obvious... Such things are quite important when working with notation in school with pupils...

I understand, what is meant, when I look at the grid, but it's not correct visualisation of a rhythm, because it's not clearly visible that there are 2 voices ...
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File Type: jpg reano02.jpg (14.0 KB, 154 views)

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Old 03-16-2016, 08:30 AM   #613
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see attached images... even in the first picture the measure is not 4/4... when changing length of the second note it becomes more obvious... Such things are quite important when working with notation in school with pupils...

Ah. This is the overlapping note issue. The measure is 4/4, but your overlapping notes are not being notated together. What you're probably expecting to see, with notes in these positions, is that the half note is notated as an eighth note tied to a chord that consists of a dotted quarter (the remainder of the original half note) and the standalone eighth note.

At present, overlapping notes are not notated together if the longer note completely encloses the shorter note, as is the case in your examples. There have been users asking for both ways of displaying overlapping notes, and we may provide some options to handle different preferences, but I think we will need to have overlapping notes notated together by default, which will make your notes display as you expect. Somebody who doesn't want overlapping notes notated together can always manually change the voice for some notes to notate them separately (with rests in each voice, as appropriate).
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:38 AM   #614
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great, thanks!!!
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:06 AM   #615
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we need to be able to punch in say a 1/4 note and in the same time space say a 1/8 note on top of it. we do this in the piano roll by stretching or shrinking the note or changing the grid. how do we do this in notation view? right now if I change the grid and add another note on top it changes the bottom note to the new note value.
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:36 AM   #616
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we need to be able to punch in say a 1/4 note and in the same time space say a 1/8 note on top of it. we do this in the piano roll by stretching or shrinking the note or changing the grid. how do we do this in notation view? right now if I change the grid and add another note on top it changes the bottom note to the new note value.
Sorry, can you be more specific? Adding a note should not change other notes.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:04 AM   #617
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Sorry, can you be more specific? Adding a note should not change other notes.
just for when you want different note values on top of each other. like a bass note on a piano ringing longer than the top note.

This is what I'm trying to do (from sibelius)









currently when you try to add a new note value on top or below a note. it changes the current note value as well. they are tied together.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:32 AM   #618
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Wait a second. I was just able to do it. Just now. But it randomly doesn't work. Has to be a method for doing it then.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:40 AM   #619
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now I can't figure out how I did it. here's what happens when I try to add a different note value above or below a note with a different note value. it does still reflect the old value. but as a tied note. not like in the sibelius pic. although I was able to randomly do it in reaper the same way it looks in sibelius but couldn't do it again. at least it's possible

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Old 03-16-2016, 11:47 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by memyselfandus View Post
just for when you want different note values on top of each other. like a bass note on a piano ringing longer than the top note.

This is what I'm trying to do (from sibelius)









currently when you try to add a new note value on top or below a note. it changes the current note value as well. they are tied together.
Use voices to achieve it. Just like you do in Sibelius. :-)
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:48 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by memyselfandus View Post
just for when you want different note values on top of each other. like a bass note on a piano ringing longer than the top note.

currently when you try to add a new note value on top or below a note. it changes the current note value as well. they are tied together.
I think you can just use set them to different voices to overcome this. I think there are top and bottom voices at the moment.

But ideally it would detect this automatically or maybe another option at least have 4 voices as this is the normal minimum in choirs:

SATB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATB

Four-part harmony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-part_harmony

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Old 03-16-2016, 12:02 PM   #622
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when I try to add a different note value above or below a note with a different note value. it does still reflect the old value. but as a tied note
If you want to notes to be displayed as separate voices, rather than tied notes, use the voice dropdown at the bottom of the editor, or the context menu action, to set the notes to different voices.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:13 PM   #623
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wow. I'm a idiot lol. sorry guys. thanks

the notation in reaper is already incredible

Default, High and Low voice. awesome.

I just did 4 different note values on the same beat
by toggling back and forth between low and high.

so awesome

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Old 03-16-2016, 12:16 PM   #624
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I think you can just use set them to different voices to overcome this. I think there are top and bottom voices at the moment.

But ideally it would detect this automatically or maybe another option at least have 4 voices as this is the normal minimum in choirs:

SATB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATB

Four-part harmony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-part_harmony
I do not think four-part harmony would be a problem for the current version of REAPER's notation view, since SATB choirs are usually notated on four separate staffs. Even if you notate them on one grand staff, the notation view has three voices per staff, so you have a total of six voices with which to organize everything.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:16 PM   #625
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wow. I'm a idiot lol. sorry guys. thanks

the notation in reaper is already incredible
No idiocy - it's just brand new and the feature set is evolving quickly. Yep, it's looking pretty darned fine already!
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:22 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by mpb2016 View Post
I think you can just use set them to different voices to overcome this. I think there are top and bottom voices at the moment.

But ideally it would detect this automatically or maybe another option at least have 4 voices as this is the normal minimum in choirs:

SATB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATB

Four-part harmony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-part_harmony
It would be nice to have a setting to allow any note value to show when switching between note values on the same beat. that would be rad.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:23 PM   #627
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No idiocy - it's just brand new and the feature set is evolving quickly. Yep, it's looking pretty darned fine already!
It really is! hoping we can at some point get some sws type stuff going for it. user created composing plugins and all that. then pretty much anything within reason.. that comes up as feature requests will probably already have a action or whatever to achieve it.

what I mean by composing plugins is stuff like this.

http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html


anything within reason that is not in the core notation options. you could have a sws sized list of things you could run in the notation editor.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:27 PM   #628
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I do not think four-part harmony would be a problem for the current version of REAPER's notation view, since SATB choirs are usually notated on four separate staffs. Even if you notate them on one grand staff, the notation view has three voices per staff, so you have a total of six voices with which to organize everything.
Yes, you're right I didn't realize there already are 3 voices in the treble and 3 in the bass. Having 4 voices per staff is nothing I think is really necessary, maybe more a matter of how far into notation editor territory they want to take it.

It's already starting to look dangerous for a few established notation editors I wont name

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Old 03-16-2016, 03:00 PM   #629
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Sorry for my absence lately. I'm going to update the bugs and FR lists this weekend just for documentation purposes.

Feature request:
Increase the number of articulations to include tremolos, half step trills, whole step trills, left hand pizz (plus), snap pizz, harmonic, up bow, down bow, pedal up, pedal down... And maybe a few others ��
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:37 PM   #630
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Default Getting vocal about voices

Hey gang,

Granted, at the moment we have three-ish voices per channel, but I would say that the number of voices could/should be increased significantly, because this feature serves some very special purposes in a DAW context, not just from the angle of notation software. It's all about harnessing the hybrid nature of the beast.

I would suggest 16(!) voices per channel, for the simple reason that if you use something like a voice to bus router (and you're welcome to use mine), you instantly have 256* different potential sound sources available on a single track: 16 channels @ 16 voices per channel. 16 of everything for everyone!

This may seem a bit extreme at first glance, but here are my thoughts and rationale, in no particular order...
  • Don't we want our notation to be as compact, convenient and modular as possible? Unless it's a particularly dense bit of writing, we can have the full score accessible from a single track, so everything is in one place. Plus we can use the filters to show/hide individual channels/voices for parts and so on.
  • We can organise our material into layers that make the most sense for our workflow. Ask yourself: What constitutes a track? What constitutes a channel? What constitutes a voice? These answers will be different from person to person and (often) from project to project, instrument to instrument, etc. Here are some examples involving the use of voices:
    • Make a sketch of the overall woodwind texture with the default voice and a general, polyphonic "ensemble" sound. Gradually tease out the lines by transferring the notes to specific, monophonic, legato-enabled instrumental timbres living in the other voices.
    • If you need more detailed string parts for the next Metamorphosen or Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, split the parts across 3 channels: high, middle and low strings, or perhaps symphonic, chamber and solo strings. That's 48 individual string lines (equal to the current maximum for an entire track) on channels 1-3 and you still have 13 more channels to burn on this track alone!
    • For your next assignment, you don't have anything like the same number of strings but instead need a giant brass section. With access to so many extra voices, you can still use the same template layout without altering anything: just bring those different sets of sounds online and use your brass channels 11-14 for up to 64-part polyphony.
  • You certainly don't need to use all of the voices all of the time, but they're there if you do. Maybe one channel (your choir, say) needs 12 voices and another (your harpsichord) only needs one or two. That's obviously fine too.
  • From an implementation/display perspective, Reaper could populate the notation editor with more staves to make room as the number of active voices grows. Perhaps 2-4 per staff, depending on preference and/or density of notes, and choice of clefs, of course. You'd probably want to arrange the staves vertically in voice order, so the notation layout is most transparent.
Some of these features have certain pre-requisites. The last point I mentioned would be an extension of the staff-per-channel version of "page view", which I don't think exists yet; I'm trying not to get too disconcerted by this. Also, note off disambiguation per voice, as I mentioned elsewhere, would help when parts are frequently crossing and generally being a bit messy and confusing in the pitch department.

* or even more if you choose to implement mappings based on custom notehead appearance: split the voices off per bus (routing to destination bus 1 on each track) and then use noteheads as a secondary bus divider (routing to bus 2-16 from each of those tracks) for a nearly incalculable number of possibilities, limited only by your imagination, computing power... and sample library collection!

Last edited by ijijn; 03-17-2016 at 02:31 AM. Reason: slight rewording and clarification
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:13 PM   #631
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[*]Make a sketch of the overall woodwind texture with the default voice and a general, polyphonic "ensemble" sound. Gradually tease out the lines by transferring the notes to specific, monophonic, legato-enabled instrumental timbres living in the other voices.
[*]If you need more detailed string parts for the next Metamorphosen or Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, split the parts across 3 channels: high, middle and low strings, or perhaps symphonic, chamber and solo strings. That's 48 individual string lines (equal to the current maximum for an entire track) on channels 1-3 and you still have 13 more channels to burn on this track alone!
[*]For your next assignment, you don't have anything like the same number of strings but instead need a giant brass section. With access to so many extra voices, you can still use the same template layout without altering anything: just bring those different sets of sounds online and use your brass channels 11-14 for up to 64-part polyphony.
Hmm, Im getting a boner ..

(On second thought isnt that sort of like subprojects? I sometimes do a rough sketch with a multipatch on one track then duplicate it on individual instruments and delete the voices I dont need, this seems to do the same more or less.)

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Old 03-17-2016, 03:40 AM   #632
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Another feature that would be quite useful (and havenīt been able to find in the action list):

- Clef changes in the middle of the staff : Many parts simply cannot be written with just a single clef at the beginning of the staff.
If you mean change clef at any time (bar/beat) position in the staff then yes. +1 That's what I'm asking for too.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:52 AM   #633
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If you mean change clef at any time (bar/beat) position in the staff then yes. +1 That's what I'm asking for too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Feature request:
Increase the number of articulations to include tremolos, half step trills, whole step trills, left hand pizz (plus), snap pizz, harmonic, up bow, down bow, pedal up, pedal down... And maybe a few others
Yes, I back both feature requests.
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:41 AM   #634
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I would suggest 16(!) voices per channel
I like your idea of many voices on a single stuff.
How do you think, maybe a feature witch allows to display many tracks on a single stuff would be more handy? As I understand the reaper's voice separation is intended for display accuracy for now. For this purpose two voices are enough.
What do you think?

P. S. I hope I understand your post correctly.

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Old 03-17-2016, 07:57 AM   #635
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Default Scroll without zoom?

Please help me
How to scroll up and down without zooming using the mouse wheel?
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:00 AM   #636
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Please help me
How to scroll up and down without zooming using the mouse wheel?
control+alt mousewheel by default. This can be customized by assigning other modifiers in the actions list, MIDI editor section, "View: Scroll vertically."
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:12 AM   #637
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control+alt mousewheel by default. This can be customized by assigning other modifiers in the actions list, MIDI editor section, "View: Scroll vertically."
O! Thanks for answer! It is obvious... sorry
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:57 PM   #638
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(On second thought isnt that sort of like subprojects? I sometimes do a rough sketch with a multipatch on one track then duplicate it on individual instruments and delete the voices I dont need, this seems to do the same more or less.)
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I like your idea of many voices on a single stuff.
How do you think, maybe a feature witch allows to display many tracks on a single stuff would be more handy? As I understand the reaper's voice separation is intended for display accuracy for now. For this purpose two voices are enough.
What do you think?

P. S. I hope I understand your post correctly.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Sure, there are naturally other ways to accomplish basically the same thing, but all of these approaches require more steps, more tracks and/or even more projects, and are therefore more prone to error and confusion, at least for an absent-minded individual such as myself.

Let's compare the steps...

Multi-track:
  1. duplicate/copy+paste track/notes/whatever (then correct any mistakes in the positioning, where applicable)
  2. delete those you don't want on the new track (making sure you don't delete too many)
  3. delete the other ones in the original, or mute the sketch track (and then remember to unmute it next time you want to use it)
Multi-voice:
  1. select
  2. change voice (right click or via keyboard shortcut)
It's not even close to a fair numbering scheme either, because each step in the former takes far longer than a step in the latter, the latter taking maybe 3 seconds total on a bad right-drag day. This will be especially great once we have access to voices (and everything else notational) from the piano roll as well as the notation view. I'm sure that's coming at some point, not least because the illustrious EvilDragon is on the case.

Aside from speed, there is an additional advantage that you don't ever need to include wholesale deletion as part of routine workflow, which means that horrible accidents are far less likely to occur. Something subtle such as inadvertently undoing to a point between the cut and paste can cause nightmares, and you may not even notice for ages if you then go on to work on something else, and then (best case scenario) it's a guided tour through the tall grass of project backups to recover the hidden treasure once you finally spot the mistake. True story. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

Also, this "multi-spacial" approach requires a particular mind-set which I simply do not have: I'm a one-track-wherever-possible* kind of guy and like to have a solid overview of my work in one place. For large-scale situations, I may consider using subprojects/proxies, but their role is surely to keep things compartmentalised on some level? When I'm composing music and sculpting my midi lines, the last thing I would ever want is separate compartments: that just impedes my flow, man. I get inspired when I can easily see the whole shape of the work as it unfolds, and it helps me with things like understanding relationships between material and the seeding of new ideas throughout the texture. I spend a lot of time in the piano roll these days because the colour separation makes it so easy to see each part: if we could have something like channel separation AND voice separation (by some kind of pattern or shading of the channel colour, or something much better that the UX geniuses devise) together at the same time (and how's that for a deeply embedded FR?) then it would only make the situation more beautiful and exciting.

Here are some other points that spring to mind at this particular juncture...

In a multi-voice world, all notes are available for editing with a single click in the midi editor: no drilling through those greyed-out layers, which you can only do if you have the feature set up via the options anyway. You can just keep the same editor window open in notation view, piano roll and so on (and while we're on the subject, and Mr E.D. has been seen on the prowl for this one too, let's have the option of both alongside each other at some point, shall we?) and simply navigate/filter to find what you need. Clean and simple, with no extra clicking and nothing getting in the way. A polyphonic paradise. A contrapuntal cornucopia.

I think this would appeal to a lot of users, especially those new to the hobby/profession and trying to find their workflow, to whom Reaper will no doubt come screaming with the might of a thousand ringwraiths. My colleagues and composition/midi orchestration students certainly all love this approach, and I would like to think that this is not just because of my compelling brand of kool-aid.

In some ways, it comes down to how we would like to see voices, channels, tracks and projects. For me, voices are an individual instrumental "voice" or colour in the greater polyphony, channels are for organising related voices in a logical manner that prevents head from exploding, and a track is a container that holds many channels (ideally everything), while proxies/subprojects and projects are for keeping work separate to various degrees and/or allowing elegant large-scale repeating structures.

At the time of writing, the notation view doesn't support this paradigm particularly well, as it seems to discriminate mostly by track, rather than channel. I'll just hold on tight, keep my fingers crossed and hope we get there at some point.

Your views will probably differ somewhat, but having these extra options for 16-ish voices surely doesn't hurt anyone(?) and would make my life and the life of my ... devotees about 10x easier, as a conservative estimate.

Oh boy, sorry about the long post again. I do try to keep them short, honest!

* for midi, I mean: one track for all of the source material and then a bunch of other tracks for routing, logic, audio processing, reverb buses... but I hardly ever need to do anything with them at Composing Time.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:38 PM   #639
Soli Deo Gloria
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If you mean change clef at any time (bar/beat) position in the staff then yes. +1 That's what I'm asking for too.
Sorry, I hadn't seen your post... I would have quoted you if I had. Anyway, we' ve got clef changes at the beginning of the measure by now; all it is needed is the ability to place them at any beat/position in the score and we're done...
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:15 AM   #640
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Sorry, I hadn't seen your post... I would have quoted you if I had. Anyway, we' ve got clef changes at the beginning of the measure by now; all it is needed is the ability to place them at any beat/position in the score and we're done...
Yep, it's quite good now, but at any beat would be even better.

How important would you rate having treble ++8ve clefs? (I forget the formal name, but MuseScore does them) personally don't use them much, but you seem much more 'composerly' than me.
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