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06-11-2018, 12:55 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: France
Posts: 727
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Live FX multiprocessing regression
Hello
I've noticed that the new Live FX multiprocessing introduced in 5.9 has worst performances (clicks and pops) on my live mixing computer (i7 3770k with win 7, anticipative fx processing off, live fx multiprocessing on).
Maybe this change?
° Live FX multiprocessing: remove old logic for reducing worker threads when not using anticipative FX processing
Pops seems to only occur on live input.
Everything is ok on 5.8
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06-11-2018, 01:58 PM
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#2
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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There were other changes in 5.9 relating to live FX multiprocessing, to allow it to more efficiently process folders and sends in parallel, as well as efficiently dealing with PDC in folders/receiving tracks. What does your project look like that is seeing worsened performance?
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06-11-2018, 02:30 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Hi justin, any news about the optimisation of VST which are opened but not visibles and which can take some ressource (like Fabfilter Pro Q2) ?
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06-11-2018, 02:46 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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That sort of optimization is up to the plugin developer, AFAIK.
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06-11-2018, 03:01 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Reaper could be able to not refresh the GUI of VST when they are not visible.
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06-11-2018, 03:18 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I'd think that's done automatically.
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06-11-2018, 03:29 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I'd think that's done automatically.
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I'm not sure than VST are able to know if we can see or not when they are opened.
Look this :
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...8&postcount=23
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06-11-2018, 09:51 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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They don't need to. The OS only calls the "Redraw" event handler for those GUI elements, that are currently visible.
Of course a program (or plugin) can decide to unnecessarily do GUI related stuff in other parts of their code but the Redraw event handler, but the VST host can't tell them not to.
-Michael
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06-12-2018, 05:20 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 791
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sorry OP for thread-jacking
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
Reaper could be able to not refresh the GUI of VST when they are not visible.
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GPU usage goes to 0% when the window is closed and CPU usage is decrease by a bit:
Seems ok on Windows... (?)
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06-12-2018, 05:35 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
Hi justin, any news about the optimisation of VST which are opened but not visibles and which can take some ressource (like Fabfilter Pro Q2) ?
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AFAIK, the FF plugins use opengl which can sometimes be problematic. IIRC there is a way to turn off opengl use, but don't remember the details.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
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06-12-2018, 06:09 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lachrimae
Seems ok on Windows... (?)
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I have got lots of heavy projects where I have often to close all the FX windows if I don't want listen glitchs.
And I am not alone with this issue. I don't know why there is an issue, but there is a real issue...
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06-12-2018, 06:13 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Because CPU needs to do more work when plugin GUIs are shown, and not all plugins use GPU accelleration, it's as simple as that. This is not up to Reaper at all.
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06-12-2018, 06:14 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter
AFAIK, the FF plugins use opengl which can sometimes be problematic. IIRC there is a way to turn off opengl use, but don't remember the details.
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Regedit and create "GraphicsAcceleration" with 0 (hexa).
But it dosen't work in my case...
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06-12-2018, 06:16 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Because CPU needs to do more work when plugin GUIs are shown, and not all plugins use GPU accelleration, it's as simple as that. This is not up to Reaper at all.
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But in fact, only one of my FX window is displayed simultaneously (other are docked and invisible)... So how do you explain this ?
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06-12-2018, 06:20 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Let FabFilter explain that one.
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06-12-2018, 06:27 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
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What might be interesting to check is the "RT CPU" use from reaper's performance window. This is a measure of how long it takes to calculate the FX and not how much cpu it uses. The 2 aren't really related and if there are glitches/pops in the sound that's indicative of the RT CPU going too high.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
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06-12-2018, 07:28 AM
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#17
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lachrimae
GPU usage goes to 0% when the window is closed and CPU usage is decrease by a bit:
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Might be worth testing with the window open, in a docked tab that is hidden?
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06-12-2018, 07:49 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 791
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Interesting...
Docked (hidden) does not remove all GPU processing but appears to be slightly more CPU/GPU efficient than when visible:
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06-12-2018, 08:02 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 179
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FWIW, I also noticed an increase in pops and crackles in the latest versions.
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06-12-2018, 10:25 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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The same sequence is played in a loop. Same armed track.
It seems to take more ressource when all FX windows are docked.
With all FX windows docked (I haven't recorded it, but sometimes, there is 100% RT CPU/Reaper freezes) :
Whitout FX windows (only one FX window is displayed) :
Last edited by ovnis; 06-12-2018 at 01:43 PM.
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06-12-2018, 11:44 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx
Hello
I've noticed that the new Live FX multiprocessing introduced in 5.9 has worst performances (clicks and pops) on my live mixing computer (i7 3770k with win 7, anticipative fx processing off, live fx multiprocessing on).
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show us your settings. Preferences>audio>buffering
Try 4 instead of 8 cores and 2 for live fx multiprocessing
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06-12-2018, 01:23 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Hi, less cores for what reasons ?
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06-12-2018, 02:56 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
Hi, less cores for what reasons ?
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fewer
it's what works for me.
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06-12-2018, 04:17 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 543
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I managed to get rid of graphic related problems when I edited the IRQ-Priorities on Windows 7. Often times graphic cards have a higher priority than audio-cards which can sometime lead to crackles when some graphics have to be done while audio is playing....
long story short:
here is what I did and where I found it. Worked for me. I hope it helps:
http://www.sensomusic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2463
edit: I did this process already 2 years ago. For the latest version, I have not noticed anything much different since the previous one.
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06-12-2018, 08:41 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Thx for the tip but it doesn't seem to give better results.
I have made it in 32 bits.
-----------
You can see the difference about frames per sec between all FX windows docked or closed :
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06-12-2018, 08:58 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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I have try to use again the fabfilter GPU-accelerated graphics acceleration. When I have opened all the FX Windows (with the action command) : win10 has freezed and after this, black screen !
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06-13-2018, 01:17 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 370
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Hello,
I'm not here that often these time ...
I'm glad real time performance and complex project routing are getting some love from dev.
I tested latest version of reaper, with RT performance improvements. And I have to say it is always very bad. From time to time I mix in Pro Tools, and I hate to admit RT performances are much better in PT.
I posted a long time ago about reaper being not efficient with real time computing. ( https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=134286 ). It became even worse with 5.0.
One thing that helped with complex project was that script ; https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=156820 . I wonder if reaper does this trick natively now ?
Are there further optimisations on the way ?
Thanks
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06-13-2018, 03:46 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: France
Posts: 727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
There were other changes in 5.9 relating to live FX multiprocessing, to allow it to more efficiently process folders and sends in parallel, as well as efficiently dealing with PDC in folders/receiving tracks. What does your project look like that is seeing worsened performance?
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my projects on this computer are mostly tracks record armed with monitoring on (to use reaper as a live mixer, up to 32 inputs). I use folders indeed with processing on it, as long as routing between tracks, and vca. I don't use pdc as I want to keep latency low so it is deactivated on the plugins that need it (just special fx per project, as most vst i use have 0 latency).
Here's what I've found after more comparisons on the same project:
my buffering settings were "thread priority"=time critical and "behaviour"=10. I've been running successfully live shows for 3 years like that, but it seems 5.91 needs more relaxed settings to work (pops are disappearing with the default settings= priority= highest behaviour=4)
BUT
In 5.8 I have no pops and realtime cpu is between 42% and 50% depending on priority and behaviour settings
In 5.9 realtime cpu is at 52% on the more relaxed settings (no pops) and can go as much as 75% with my old settings (instant pops)
reducing cores cpu number in live fx multiprocessing is worst.
To sum it up, 5.9 seems to use more real time cpu than previous version on this computer, even with the best settings I could find.
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06-13-2018, 05:15 AM
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#29
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx
my projects on this computer are mostly tracks record armed with monitoring on (to use reaper as a live mixer, up to 32 inputs). I use folders indeed with processing on it, as long as routing between tracks, and vca. I don't use pdc as I want to keep latency low so it is deactivated on the plugins that need it (just special fx per project, as most vst i use have 0 latency).
Here's what I've found after more comparisons on the same project:
my buffering settings were "thread priority"=time critical and "behaviour"=10. I've been running successfully live shows for 3 years like that, but it seems 5.91 needs more relaxed settings to work (pops are disappearing with the default settings= priority= highest behaviour=4)
BUT
In 5.8 I have no pops and realtime cpu is between 42% and 50% depending on priority and behaviour settings
In 5.9 realtime cpu is at 52% on the more relaxed settings (no pops) and can go as much as 75% with my old settings (instant pops)
reducing cores cpu number in live fx multiprocessing is worst.
To sum it up, 5.9 seems to use more real time cpu than previous version on this computer, even with the best settings I could find.
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Do you have anticipative FX multiprocessing enabled? If not, try changing your worker thread count to 1 or 2.
In general I would advise against thread priority of time critical when using live FX multiprocessing, as it would make the live FX threads run at the same priority as the media/anticipative FX threads, which would be suboptimal.
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06-13-2018, 07:02 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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Sorry for panicking.....
I use Reaper "on stage" with a lot of Live instruments and effects without any performance trouble at all, just using the default performance parameters.
Do I need to fear it will crackle with newer Reaper versions ?
Sorry again,
-Michael
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06-13-2018, 07:04 AM
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#31
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Sorry for panicking.....
I use Reaper "on stage" with a lot of Live instruments and effects without any performance trouble at all, just using the default performance parameters.
Do I need to fear it will crackle with newer Reaper versions ?
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I'd suggest always testing new versions very thoroughly before using them for a live performance.
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06-13-2018, 07:10 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: France
Posts: 727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Do you have anticipative FX multiprocessing enabled? If not, try changing your worker thread count to 1 or 2.
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Anticipative fx is not enabled.
I've tried to reduce the worker thread count but it seems as it doesn't change anything on RT performance (remember there's no media reading on these projects, just live inputs).
I can make it work ok in 5.9 with the default settings, but it is consuming more rt cpu in the performance window than 5.8 at the same settings (50% vs 40%), ratio confirmed on other projects.
Also the RT longest block first number is slightly higher (0.2 or 0.3ms more) on 5.9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
In general I would advise against thread priority of time critical when using live FX multiprocessing, as it would make the live FX threads run at the same priority as the media/anticipative FX threads, which would be suboptimal.
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thanks for explanation.
Does it mean the priority/behaviour settings concern only the media processing thread, not the live monitored audio?
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06-13-2018, 07:17 AM
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#33
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx
Anticipative fx is not enabled.
I've tried to reduce the worker thread count but it seems as it doesn't change anything on RT performance (remember there's no media reading on these projects, just live inputs).
I can make it work ok in 5.9 with the default settings, but it is consuming more rt cpu in the performance window than 5.8 at the same settings (50% vs 40%), ratio confirmed on other projects.
Also the RT longest block first number is slightly higher (0.2 or 0.3ms more) on 5.9
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With anticipative FX disabled and no media in the project, those worker threads won't have much to do, but their behavior/priority will affect the RT threads somewhat.
Quote:
thanks for explanation.
Does it mean the priority/behaviour settings concern only the media processing thread, not the live monitored audio?
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They can but don't necessarily. If you can use the default settings, I'd use the default settings.
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06-13-2018, 07:54 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: France
Posts: 727
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Ok thanks.
I'll try 5.91 with default settings on a soundcheck. I'll get back to my old config if needed.
°Live FX multiprocessing: improve performance with folder tracks that have PDC .
°Live FX multiprocessing: process receives similar to folders
Does these new features implie an extra cpu cost for folders/receives tracks with fx that don't use PDC?
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06-13-2018, 07:54 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
I'd suggest always testing new versions very thoroughly before using them for a live performance.
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Obviously
Do you suggest using the default setting when upgrading to check the new version(s).
-Michael
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06-21-2018, 07:44 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Subscribing to this to as I've had odd pops and glitches at 64 buffer in the latest version when i didn't before with certain plugins showing so
I'll read through this properly when I've got time and see if any of it solves it.
__________________
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note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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