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Old 01-14-2016, 09:43 AM   #81
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If this were 2001 or even 2006, I would agree with you.

However, DSP coding has now got to the point that emulations of hardware are indistinguishable. Coders and industry pros all agree.
You know, I might even accept that some people honestly believe so, but in the end I can only trust my own ears, and no, it's not even close especially with synths and filters.

Does it matter? Not one bit, just like it doesn't matter what brand of guitar someone used, did the singer use a Studio Projects or a vintage Neumann mic, or if the grand was a Steinway or Yamaha. Getting academic about these nuances is for us audio geeks, snobs, besserwissers and gear heads. For other people, the music matters.

What matters to me, however, is that there's nothing in the hardware world that can even remotely emulate layers of Prisms, Kaivos or Razors pushed by 12 tracks of automation. This is the domain I want to explore, where there's no worries about trying to sound like something else. Because nothing does, these sounds were made possible by the CPU, how they are played was made possible by the freedom from hardware constrictions. Born from code, creating their own esthetics and flavour.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:03 AM   #82
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I disagree. Dsp emulations have gotten much better, but there is still a long way to go. For example, one thing that I just realized the other night about why I hate amp sims is that they lack in harmonics. I got to playing around with Overtone GEQ (a harmonic eq) at different points in the signal chain, and it made a big difference in getting closer to the sound of a touch responsive amp, although it came with a downside of sounding on the harsh side. But having those upper harmonics is so much more satisfying than what amp sims do on their own.

As with amp sims, I hear what many compressors, saturators, filters, and synths are shooting for, but they never quite arrive to the point of satisfaction.
Yes, I just flat refuse to use amp sims. They all sound crap to me. I tell clients to give me the sound of what the want to hear rather than using sims to get there.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:04 AM   #83
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What many are forgetting here is that many of us cannot possibly afford the majority of the gear in the emulations. Also that gear is either extremely rare (low production numbers), no longer produced, wearing out entirely, stupidly difficult and fiddly to maintain or simply uneconomical to reproduce today. Also most wouldn't even have space for an electric Piano, Grand Piano or Orchestra, let alone the finances!

Personally I am extremely glad that very close approximations of classic hardware exists. Outside of fetishizing hardware lovers, listening ever so intently to the tone (in direct A-B comparisons) they are mostly indistinguishable in a mix and the good ones are very pleasing on their own.

I feel we are way past the point of being able to consider blaming the software emulations and hardware recreations for any shortcomings in the sound quality in a finished track.

There is irony in much of what is being emulated. In synth terms hardware that was limited because of limits of technology, faults in the original design, cost restraints, size limitations etc. Any decent modern computer is a vastly more powerful synthesizing machine than typical analogue hardware but we intentionally limit that potential to attempting to accurately recreate these faults, modelling circuits etc. in the name of recreating the original tone or character.
What's wrong with that though? have unlimited polyphony, additive, modal, harmonic, granular synths always improved the music compared to retro style synths?
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:14 AM   #84
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Personally I am extremely glad that very close approximations of classic hardware exists. Outside of fetishizing hardware lovers, listening ever so intently to the tone (in direct A-B comparisons) they are mostly indistinguishable in a mix and the good ones are very pleasing on their own.
The bold is all I care about.

I don't care what the thing it's trying to be sounds like, I just care about what the thing I'm using sounds like.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:18 AM   #85
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What many are forgetting here is that many of us cannot possibly afford the majority of the gear in the emulations. Also that gear is either extremely rare (low production numbers), no longer produced, wearing out entirely, stupidly difficult and fiddly to maintain or simply uneconomical to reproduce today. Also most wouldn't even have space for an electric Piano, Grand Piano or Orchestra, let alone the finances!

Personally I am extremely glad that very close approximations of classic hardware exists. Outside of fetishizing hardware lovers, listening ever so intently to the tone (in direct A-B comparisons) they are mostly indistinguishable in a mix and the good ones are very pleasing on their own.

I feel we are way past the point of being able to consider blaming the software emulations and hardware recreations for any shortcomings in the sound quality in a finished track.

There is irony in much of what is being emulated. In synth terms hardware that was limited because of limits of technology, faults in the original design, cost restraints, size limitations etc. Any decent modern computer is a vastly more powerful synthesizing machine than typical analogue hardware but we intentionally limit that potential to attempting to accurately recreate these faults, modelling circuits etc. in the name of recreating the original tone or character.
What's wrong with that though? have unlimited polyphony, additive, modal, harmonic, granular synths always improved the music compared to retro style synths?
There is something very satisfying in the sound of some hardware that many people want to hear, and that is lacking in emulations. Any supposed flaws in the hardware is irrelevant, because what sounds good is good. What some people call flaws, others call character. And sure, there are some plugins that sound good in their own right, but they aren't doing those things that some hardware does. They are something different and in addition to the sought after sounds of hardware. You may enjoy eating pie and have all of it that you can eat, but that doesn't cure the longing for steak and potatoes.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:31 AM   #86
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There is something very satisfying in the sound of some hardware that many people want to hear, and that is lacking in emulations. Any supposed flaws in the hardware is irrelevant, because what sounds good is good. What some people call flaws, others call character. And sure, there are some plugins that sound good in their own right, but they aren't doing those things that some hardware does. They are something different and in addition to the sought after sounds of hardware.
I agree.
I am all for the pursuit of ever more accurate emulations AND totally new forms of synthesis, producing new instruments. It's all welcome and if an emulation brings something new to the table then that is welcome too. After all the Mellotron was a laughable emulation of real instruments, failing spectacularly in it's own terms, but what a weird and wonderful instrument in the right mix, with the right effects.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:45 AM   #87
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What many are forgetting here is that many of us cannot possibly afford the majority of the gear in the emulations. Also that gear is either extremely rare (low production numbers), no longer produced, wearing out entirely, stupidly difficult and fiddly to maintain or simply uneconomical to reproduce today. Also most wouldn't even have space for an electric Piano, Grand Piano or Orchestra, let alone the finances!

Personally I am extremely glad that very close approximations of classic hardware exists. Outside of fetishizing hardware lovers, listening ever so intently to the tone (in direct A-B comparisons) they are mostly indistinguishable in a mix and the good ones are very pleasing on their own.

I feel we are way past the point of being able to consider blaming the software emulations and hardware recreations for any shortcomings in the sound quality in a finished track.

There is irony in much of what is being emulated. In synth terms hardware that was limited because of limits of technology, faults in the original design, cost restraints, size limitations etc. Any decent modern computer is a vastly more powerful synthesizing machine than typical analogue hardware but we intentionally limit that potential to attempting to accurately recreate these faults, modelling circuits etc. in the name of recreating the original tone or character.
What's wrong with that though? have unlimited polyphony, additive, modal, harmonic, granular synths always improved the music compared to retro style synths?
So well stated I just need to 'endorse'.

(a personal aside) ___ one of life's tough moments when beloved Grotrian-Steinweg 225 had to go. What could possibly replace it with much lower $$ /space.
IvoryII was a solid way to keep playing and enjoying while playing mental__ sound & touch games in my head

In a very different context, I hear too many talented posters describe 'regaining' depth & warmth with Nebuala3 emulations after surgical work with algo FX. Not bothered by those who disagree, but keep Neb3 around much for those cases alone.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:47 AM   #88
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Brian Eno (quoted in an article exploring whether "Infinite Possibilities" is a coherent ideal) :
_

The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates “more options” with “greater freedom.” Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: “How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?”

In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can’t ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one’s mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment.

With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users – when given a choice – prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can’t have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else.”

http://www.horizontalpitch.com/2015/...ssibilities-2/

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Old 01-14-2016, 10:57 AM   #89
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The bold is all I care about.

I don't care what the thing it's trying to be sounds like, I just care about what the thing I'm using sounds like.
Yes and no. I too want the instrument to sound good in its own terms, but a specific emulation should be a very good copy of the hardware it is emulating. Of course we have varying degrees of success. Of cost I can accept limitations on an emulation that costs tens of pounds.

However when we buy a software synth or sample synth based on classic hardware we know what sort of tone to expect. This is more than the original pioneering artists could hope for, let alone expect. Some of the big poly synths were so expensive that they were passed from band to band, and the same synths are heard on various world famous bands tracks.

Some of it is hardware worship too though, people who have paid through the nose for hardware, unwilling to accept how close developers have come in cheap, everyman software. Easy to loose sight of why they wanted the hardware in the first place before they were oh so familiar with the exact tone they now expect.
People will always want the real thing. Whether it is food, cars, instruments, you name it. Good thing too, just don't begrudge those that seek to emulate greatness.

Emulations will keep getting better and the value of the originals will continue to rise too.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:58 AM   #90
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After all the Mellotron was a laughable emulation of real instruments, failing spectacularly in it's own terms, but what a weird and wonderful instrument in the right mix, with the right effects.
Good example.

While we're waiting on the emulations to arrive, and while interesting plugins continue to turn up along the way, I suppose we can keep trying to get better at making music.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:00 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by viscofisy View Post
Brian Eno (quoted in an article exploring whether "Infinite Possibilities" is a coherent ideal) :
_

The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates “more options” with “greater freedom.” Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: “How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?”

In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can’t ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one’s mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment.

With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users – when given a choice – prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can’t have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else.”

http://www.horizontalpitch.com/2015/...ssibilities-2/

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I totally agree. Good post.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:04 AM   #92
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Good example.

While we're waiting on the emulations to arrive, and while interesting plugins continue to turn up along the way, I suppose we can keep trying to get better at making music.
Now there's an idea!

I could moan that Lounge Lizard or Scarbee Vintage keys aren't absolutely perfect emulations of a real electric piano, that will let me forget that I'm no Jordan Rudess!
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:05 AM   #93
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So well stated I just need to 'endorse'.

Thank you.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:07 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by viscofisy View Post
Brian Eno (quoted in an article exploring whether "Infinite Possibilities" is a coherent ideal) :
_

The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates “more options” with “greater freedom.” Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: “How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?”

In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can’t ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one’s mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment.

With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users – when given a choice – prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can’t have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else.”

http://www.horizontalpitch.com/2015/...ssibilities-2/

_
Good stuff, Mr. Eno.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:24 AM   #95
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It's like free VSTs, there are just too many of them
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:47 AM   #96
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Thanks viscofisy, that was interesting.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:53 AM   #97
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Superior drummer 2
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:13 PM   #98
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NONE!

They're erzatz samey boring tricksy pre-programmed-multi-parameter florid grotesque abominations.


Having said that, Trilian's quite good if you're stuck for a bass right enough.
So that means you can play piano, guitar, drums, clarinet, violin, sax, harp... what a talented man !
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:31 PM   #99
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So that means you can play piano, guitar, drums, clarinet, violin, sax, harp... what a talented man !
Well note quite, but guitar, violin, piano accordion (hence a bit of piano), tenor banjo (and all similar stringed instruments like mandolin, bouzuki etc). I'm no virtuoso, but I blunder on regardless try to rise above my limitations.

But with the possible exception of Contemporary Orchestral (and Orchestral Melodrama), if you really want not to rely on too many VSTis there are things called other musicians, and they used to be quite popular!
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:53 PM   #100
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Well note quite, but guitar, violin, piano accordion (hence a bit of piano), tenor banjo (and all similar stringed instruments like mandolin, bouzuki etc). I'm no virtuoso, but I blunder on regardless try to rise above my limitations.

But with the possible exception of Contemporary Orchestral (and Orchestral Melodrama), if you really want not to rely on too many VSTis there are things called other musicians, and they used to be quite popular!
People do collaborate with other musicians, more than ever before, thanks to the net and largely through Soundcloud.
Yes there are more solo artists (and technology has given them broader scope to express themselves), but then the ability for the everyman to combine forces with other musicians from anywhere in the world has also created all kinds of collaborations. This doesn't replace traditional (in person) bands and orchestras, that tradition isn't going away simply because of a few computerized toys!
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Old 01-14-2016, 02:44 PM   #101
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After all the Mellotron was a laughable emulation of real instruments, failing spectacularly in it's own terms, but what a weird and wonderful instrument in the right mix, with the right effects.
Speaking of... another one of my favorite and frequently used vsti's is the RedTron; an emulation of an emulation. I have a few other Mellotron emulations but I tend to always pull up one of the RedTrons when I want that sound.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:03 PM   #102
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there are things called other musicians, and they used to be quite popular!
My preference is Omnisphere2 , it doesn't get hangovers like other musicians.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:06 PM   #103
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People do collaborate with other musicians, more than ever before, thanks to the net and largely through Soundcloud.
Yes there are more solo artists (and technology has given them broader scope to express themselves), but then the ability for the everyman to combine forces with other musicians from anywhere in the world has also created all kinds of collaborations. This doesn't replace traditional (in person) bands and orchestras, that tradition isn't going away simply because of a few computerized toys!
Real musicians have pretty much disappeared from film and TV music, unfortunately
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:29 PM   #104
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Brian Eno (quoted in an article exploring whether "Infinite Possibilities" is a coherent ideal) :
_

The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates “more options” with “greater freedom.” Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: “How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?”

In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can’t ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one’s mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment.

With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users – when given a choice – prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can’t have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else.”

http://www.horizontalpitch.com/2015/...ssibilities-2/

_
Thanks, been saying that for a long time, and in relation to reaper. I'm glad that Brian agrees with me.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:39 PM   #105
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Real musicians have pretty much disappeared from film and TV music, unfortunately
And everyone writes pretty much the same stuff, just with slightly different texture. From my side, music made on pc's lacks personality.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:43 PM   #106
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And everyone writes pretty much the same stuff, just with slightly different texture. From my side, music made on pc's lacks personality.
Yup, but from what I've heard, that's as much the fault of director's getting attached to their temp tracks and asking for derivative music as it is the fault of unimaginative composers.

But sampled orchestral music definitely sounds flat in comparison to live recordings.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:20 PM   #107
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Real musicians have pretty much disappeared from film and TV music, unfortunately
Hard to argue with that as a general trend in the industry.

Some of the really big budget flagship TV Drama scores use real orchestras not just virtual orchestras.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:43 PM   #108
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Yup, but from what I've heard, that's as much the fault of director's getting attached to their temp tracks and asking for derivative music as it is the fault of unimaginative composers.

But sampled orchestral music definitely sounds flat in comparison to live recordings.
Sounds flat on what .. an iPhone (or cheapie bluetooth speaker)?
That's where the world is today

I use my @#E%!^&*&*() high-end stereo so seldom any more, I turn it on the try to keep the caps alive. Even streaming flac doesn't make a helluva lot of difference when 99% is background ....

Hey, I don't disagree with your post! Just realize the only is goin where society goes. If I remember my physics ..... to bottom of the pyramid ....

Kinda like the good 'old' days .... when you could talk with someone riding on the chairlift with you .... NOT !
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:51 PM   #109
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Sounds flat on what .. an iPhone (or cheapie bluetooth speaker)?
No, even in the bloody cinema!

Actually, one of the nice things about going to see the Force Awakens in the cinema (not too fussed about the film) was hearing the score. Made a nice change from the usual fare.
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:00 PM   #110
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Should go and enjoy as well !
Watched so many BluRays and Netflix using decent 5.1 system and seldom today.

Must get out of this 'negative' mode and start seeking out the 'good stuff'.

Using Tidal & Bluesound Players, but geez finding worthwhile content is a bitch !!!
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:07 PM   #111
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Yup, but from what I've heard, that's as much the fault of director's getting attached to their temp tracks and asking for derivative music as it is the fault of unimaginative composers.

But sampled orchestral music definitely sounds flat in comparison to live recordings.
More like feeling flat, cause you can make it sound quite dynamic with few tricks. But in general, samples are limiting ones expression to the intonation of the sample! That's the biggest gripe I have, next to way to perfect timing.
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:09 PM   #112
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More like feeling flat, cause you can make it sound quite dynamic with few tricks. But in general, samples are limiting ones expression to the intonation of the sample! That's the biggest gripe I have, next to way to perfect timing.
Yeah, that's what I meant, not a lack of dynamics. Totally agree on the perfect timing too
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:18 PM   #113
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Yeah, that's what I meant, not a lack of dynamics. Totally agree on the perfect timing too
And you can't really humanise them, even manually, cause they won't glue well together, unless you have some massive reverbs on. Just had to add this ^^''
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:44 PM   #114
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If you are emulating anything with the computer, youre doing it wrong tbh. It only sounds good when you embrace its computer nature and explore the particular and unique properties it has. These days we have tons of sounds that cant be produced by hardware.

Using samples, "vintage analog emulations" and fx emulating classic hardware consoles etc is just lol.
I tend to agree with this.

My virtual instrument of choice is REAPER. Any virtual instrument plugins I use are just sound sources to be further processed within REAPER. I have no interest in fooling anyone that I can play X or Y acoustic instrument, or that I own any number of sacred vintage analog synths from the past. The sound sources I use, however obtained, are all just fodder for creating the work. It probably depends on your perspective, as to whether you value music simply as the final product you hear, or to what degree you place a value on the level of physical skill required to produce the sounds used in the creation of the musical piece.
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:14 PM   #115
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Well, of course the real (hardware) stuff on one the one side is better,
on the other side it also has some disadvantages like:
you need more space in your flat/studio for instruments, cabs, gear etc.
some need friendly or deaf neighbours because of noise (eg a real sax)
analogue gear has signs of usage, it can be stolen, can become out of order,
hiss noise, you need cables and needs
maintenance service and has bigger electricity consumption and monthly costs
for eg guitar strings etc. and it is a dust catcher, you have to practice pretty much
to play an instrument on a high standard (in a daw one could use eg drum loops) etc.

I regard software, Vst and Vstis as new opportunities and new instruments.

An orchestra library is not a real orchestra, but you can get similar results and
you can get results with Vstis you would never be able to achieve in
the real world - new ways and new interesting results !
And it´s great to be able to combine both worlds !
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:13 PM   #116
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Further to the "Real Vs VST(i)s discussion, I recently visited a friend of mine who is a working Composer and we discussed this topic at some length.

He then gave me an A-B comparison, albeit over his (excellent) Studio Monitors . . . .

An Orchestral Work, he called up the Score in Finale, on his Mac and we listened to it using whatever sample library he was using (I forgot to ask . . )

Then he played me a recording of it's recent performance on the BBC, recorded off-air.

I have to say that I was VERY impressed with the Virtual Instrument result, and fine though it was, the recording, performed with real musicians seemed to me to have an effortlessness about it that left me feeling TOTALLY "comfortable" with it.

The differences - or perhaps I should say "nuances" though somewhat "small" WERE undeniable.

All in all, we ought not to be too "aggrieved" with these minutae.

Obviously, sound libraries will variously please or disappoint us for various reasons, not least, the price we have paid ;-) - But it has to be said, they DO allow us to realise our Music to a realism previously not possible - and as such, we have never been luckier in this - THANKS to the technology we have at our disposal.

Very few of us are privileged to get as far as an Orchestral Performance of our work - so the VSTs DO allow us at least - to hear how it might sound . .

Which is great!

What's not to like? ;-)

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Old 01-15-2016, 03:03 AM   #117
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Zebra, Diva, Sylenth1, ZynAddSubFX
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:09 AM   #118
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Wow, I never thought there'd be such a response to my little post.
Firstly, in the way of instruments, I don't disagree with any of you. I need to point out to anyone who missed it that I was talking about 'Hardware' effects and not real instruments, in response to the comment directly made about hardware console emulations and the like.

The DSP coding I was talking about was specifically regarding hardware effects. When I heard Radiator, I was blown away and when put next to real hardware, for me, its sounds as good as those and I've worked in the industry for over 32 years. It has nothing to do with reading hype or interviews. This is first-hand evaluation. MAAG EQ 4 sounds amazing, again to me, as good as the real thing. Anything from bx, the same. I really do think there have been incredible leaps forward in coding since the early emulations of the 2000's. My advice is to use your own ears, eyes and experience to determine this. I did, and I'm very happy with the results and it works for me.

It's a very good thing to feel secure enough to sell your old analogue gear (which takes up so much space, generates heat and needs maintaining) and to switch to virtual fx, let me tell you. I don't regret it for one moment, I'm secure in what I'm doing and I'm happy.

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Old 01-15-2016, 04:27 AM   #119
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Everything by Eastwest, the Hollywood series in particular.

As to soft synths, I really like Omnisphere 2; and synthmaster is quite something. Plus obviously NI Komplete 10 Ultimate.

For all of these, there is so much going on under the hood that I haven't explored yet ... safe to say that I probably less than 1%.
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:20 AM   #120
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The most awesome of vsts are the symphobia stuff from project SAM.too expensive for you average Joe though.Addictive drums.Outstanding.Spectrasonics make real great vsts.the best.
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