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05-14-2022, 03:09 AM
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#161
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
But yes, this isn't a complete solution - just for the "selecting what you want to be audible" part of comping.
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I don't see lanes being slower. With sexans awesome script being nativly implemented there easily could be actions for all these things like toggeling lanes and solos. The big advantage with "raw source" lanes and dedicated "comping lanes" is that you are able to listen to you raw material (which is crucial and an absolute mess with the current system)
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05-14-2022, 09:29 AM
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#162
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
This still feels like the best model so far (way to go BirdBird).
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Just to be clear (since my name was mentioned) I sent that gif just as something I stumbled upon while playing around with solo markers, nothing more to it.
I think that an approach with a dedicated lane/track and no obstructions on the raw data would be more fitting with REAPER and easier to manage from the perspective of the user.
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05-14-2022, 12:15 PM
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#163
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird
Just to be clear (since my name was mentioned) I sent that gif just as something I stumbled upon while playing around with solo markers, nothing more to it.
I think that an approach with a dedicated lane/track and no obstructions on the raw data would be more fitting with REAPER and easier to manage from the perspective of the user.
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Exactly what I was trying to communicate BirdBird. You just happened to stumble upon a perfect "swipey" workflow that actually used that Solo Marker stuff in a practical and purposeful way.
This is infinitely better than playing with splits. Completed by an action to move a marker subsection up/down (just like Cycle Take actions work currently), would have all the benefits of the current Takes system, with all the flexibility of lanes, and no downsides. Swipe, cycle, swipe again to promote some other section, cycle, adjust endpoints, fast and easy, and you get all the good from both systems and shed the bad from both.
Last edited by ferropop; 05-14-2022 at 06:09 PM.
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05-14-2022, 06:25 PM
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#164
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
Exactly what I was trying to communicate BirdBird. You just happened to stumble upon a perfect "swipey" workflow that actually used that Solo Marker stuff in a practical and purposeful way.
This is infinitely better than playing with splits. Completed by an action to move a marker subsection up/down (just like Cycle Take actions work currently), would have all the benefits of the current Takes system, with all the flexibility of lanes, and no downsides. Swipe, cycle, swipe again to promote some other section, cycle, adjust endpoints, fast and easy, and you get all the good from both systems and shed the bad from both.
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Lets say you want to hear this entire take (3rd one) in isolation with a system like this, how do you do it? I don't see a way to do it other than having a lane state override data on items temporarily (solo markers in this case), but I think that is an entirely new can of worms to open.
I think there are also issues with moving solo markers up/down with a system like this when you have inconsistent length and empty spaces across "takes" in lanes.
Last edited by BirdBird; 05-14-2022 at 06:49 PM.
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05-14-2022, 07:05 PM
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#165
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird
Lets say you want to hear this entire take (3rd one) in isolation with a system like this, how do you do it? I don't see a way to do it other than having a lane state override data on items temporarily (solo markers in this case), but I think that is an entirely new can of worms to open.
I think there are also issues with moving solo markers up/down with a system like this when you have inconsistent length and empty spaces across "takes" in lanes.
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The current lanes system has a "solo lane", which yes would override the Solo Markers. That'd actually give some functional meaning to soloing lanes. You'd use it when you want to hear a full take/lane in isolation, and then you might then swipe something and unsolo.
And yeah I know you were just hacking around so it's not perfect - but you stumbled upon 90% of how Logic's swipe comping works, which imho is fantastic.
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05-14-2022, 07:27 PM
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#166
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
The current lanes system has a "solo lane", which yes would override the Solo Markers. That'd actually give some functional meaning to soloing lanes. You'd use it when you want to hear a full take/lane in isolation, and then you might then swipe something and unsolo.
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How do you distinguish between solo markers added for "comping" or solo markers added for other purposes in this example when overriding?
What happens to solo markers when you move the items containing them?
What happens if you also want to layer things into the comp?
Just to be clear, I also want things to just work But I think having a rigid structure like this has the ghost of the "splits" looming at the back.
Just as a quick example I think this is how flexible and comfortable things can get with a more freeform design:
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05-14-2022, 08:27 PM
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#167
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird
How do you distinguish between solo markers added for "comping" or solo markers added for other purposes in this example when overriding?
What happens to solo markers when you move the items containing them?
What happens if you also want to layer things into the comp?
Just to be clear, I also want things to just work But I think having a rigid structure like this has the ghost of the "splits" looming at the back.
Just as a quick example I think this is how flexible and comfortable things can get with a more freeform design:
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For the sake of argument and just putting more ideas out there, I'll answer your (totally legit) pushbacks. But just know that the GIF you just posted looks great.
How do you distinguish between solo markers added for "comping" or solo markers added for other purposes in this example when overriding?
-maybe I just struggle to see what other purpose Solo Markers could serve beyond being audible-take borders, and whether those special cases are important enough to warrant having a "Linuxy" workflow vs a more rigid one that produces reliable results.
What happens to solo markers when you move the items containing them?
-first off, you'd need a higher-level container defined by "the left edge of the first item, and the right edge of the last item" in a group of overlapping takes. Solo Markers would live inside that container, and their sole purpose would be to define the boundaries of the active take - just like splits currently do.
---basically, overlapping stuff defines a container, and Solo Markers exist inside that container.
What happens if you also want to layer things into the comp?
-again, maybe in a sound design situation you might want to do this - but for the unbelievably core process of comping vocals/instruments, this just will just never come up. I guess I'm proposing the standard vocal/instrument comping process have its own mode, with a comp-track and container with solo markers etc... and leave Fixed Tracks open for the purpose you describe.
Maybe that's the disconnect here. I'm scared that this opportunity to really hone in the workflow for proper comping of vocals/instruments will fall by the wayside to an open-ended therefore open-to-tremendous-trouble workflow, for the 3% of the time you might want to do that.
The idea of having to hunt down random stray overlapping bits of audio and accidental solo-markers in a complex Fixed Lane vocal track gives me acid reflux haha.
Last edited by ferropop; 05-14-2022 at 08:58 PM.
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05-14-2022, 08:56 PM
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#168
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,117
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...but of course there's a totally legitimate place for having multiple lanes, all playing together, with total freedom...but maybe this should live inside the current Fixed Lanes paradigm, and vocal/instrument comping have its own "rigid" mode as I'm sort of trying to hobble together here.
Just feel pretty strongly that something as utilitarian as vocal/instrument comping is hugely benefitted by having safeguards. No reason you can't have both Fixed Lane and a Vocal/Instrument-Comping focused mode.
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05-15-2022, 04:38 AM
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#169
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eesti
Posts: 2,716
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Would it be possible to move the timing of the audio material in the selections made with the solo markers?
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05-15-2022, 08:02 AM
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#170
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird
Just to be clear, I also want things to just work But I think having a rigid structure like this has the ghost of the "splits" looming at the back.
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But what's wrong with splits if they allow you to edit the comps? The best is to have both options combined, one modifier to comp and another to edit inside the comps.
For example i don't want to edit the final comp on the top lane only but also the comps in lanes, e.g: i want to split an item to smaller parts and then duplicate a part of it inside the selected comp without loosing the comp, or reverse it or do any other edit like moving a part from a comp to another. Or to split an item outside of a comp and move it inside another comp to be audible.
I think for me the key to combine editing and comping, is not to loosing the comps. To act just as a selection which makes the items on lanes audible, but we should also be able to edit the items inside these selections without loosing them.
Also media lanes have the advantage to add new elements from lane add area, which requires a totally different approach to comping.
I want to split an item to the start of a media lane and then move it to the end of the same lane, or another lane, or move it to the lane add area which it will add it to a new lane. This new lane should be combined with the rest by automatically making the item audible no matter the comps at the same time above it, or mute automatically the newly added lane and then swipe it to make it audible.
If i want to layer more than one comps in lanes? Just swipe the items at the same position on lanes and play the sum of them on the final/top comp lane.
Then i would really love to be able and collapse all lanes and see only the main top lane as in a folder, where i can move it or edit without seeing the rest comps for the sake of simplicity and ease of use.
Last edited by Vagelis; 05-15-2022 at 08:38 AM.
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05-15-2022, 08:20 AM
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#171
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,597
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I do not like the solo markers approach, there are too many limitations and require a lot of new implementations to make it work properly (and not sure how will that go). "cut -> paste" approach is simple, functional and not sure why reinventing wheel if this works and needs much much less work overall.
Did anyone tried comping with my script? Whats wrong there exactly?
Also swiping is cool but not in any way slower than "normal" select-promote.
Without this feature that me and Bird implemented its slower than "normal".
Last edited by Sexan; 05-15-2022 at 08:26 AM.
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05-15-2022, 08:52 AM
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#172
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,797
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The "problem" with this script, which i think it's not acting 100% as usual comping (and please don't take it as any offence since you both know that i love and respect your work), is that you can't listen the result to the main comp straight away.
If you don't use the solo track feature then you hear all tracks together, If you use solo track, then we listen only the track that we swipe comp, which doesn't let me listen the result with the rest tracks. And in the end after i have my final comp, i have to mute all tracks i was comping to.
*Please correct me if i'm wrong about the script functionality.
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05-15-2022, 09:53 AM
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#173
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,597
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Can you show me an example which daw does that? Is that how logic does it?
Regarding script You can listen the result right away if you keep the comp active and swipe on other lanes.
Solo lane = take so basically you cant do that with takes also.
Regarding your last point I dont understand, you want to listen to comp with other takes together?
My scripts mimics pro tools system and as I can tell its almost 1:1
I would love to fix/improve that issues you have but I have hard time understanding the problem (gif would be lovely)
Last edited by Sexan; 05-15-2022 at 10:16 AM.
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05-15-2022, 10:43 AM
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#174
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,797
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Sexan your script at least for me is closer to usual comping because it's the main lane that's being soloed and since it doesn't solo the track it makes it possible to listen the main lane with the rest tracks too.
In Birdbird's script with comping and at least how i 've found that it works, is that you can listen only to the track you comp on, since it's not based on lanes you can't listen it with the rest tracks. (Again correct me if i'm wrong)
In Cubase what i like is that i can edit a comp on lane and while i'm editing it, it will show up automatically on main lane, or i move an item or comp horizontally and it automatically shows up too, actually i have posted a couple of gifs some pages before.
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=106
Then for those who do not want to touch the raw/initial comps, there is the track versions as your script, where you can save it and then use another version to edit them as in my gif.
For me Cubase has a pretty powerful combination of comping and editing.
Last edited by Vagelis; 05-15-2022 at 10:51 AM.
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05-15-2022, 11:01 AM
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#175
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,597
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Sorry I have really trouble understanding the issue and how that issue resolved in BirdBirds script (its basically the same?)
and this?
Code:
If you use solo track, then we listen only the track that we swipe comp, which doesn't let me listen the result with the rest tracks
and this??
Code:
And in the end after i have my final comp, i have to mute all tracks i was comping to
Last edited by Sexan; 05-15-2022 at 11:15 AM.
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05-15-2022, 11:28 AM
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#176
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,797
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Sorry for the confusion, I meant that your script works better, because i can listen the top lane while comping together with the rest tracks, since it's the lane that's being soloed and not the track as in bird's script. (at least the way i used his script)
In his script it soloed the track while comping and i couldn't listen the rest tracks together.
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05-17-2022, 10:49 AM
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#177
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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Sexans script is exactly how I'd loved it to be natively. It's super powerful and straight forward. Ideally lanes would be subtracks and could be folded and unfolded without having to zoom in and out but that's a reaper limitation.
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05-17-2022, 12:47 PM
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#178
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,117
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Curious how this can all work with ARA? Currently every single piece of audio on every lane is sent to Melodyne.
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05-17-2022, 12:55 PM
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#179
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,597
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Looks to me as bug or not implemented properly yet. Better report that to prerelease thread
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05-26-2022, 05:37 AM
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#180
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
Curious how this can all work with ARA? Currently every single piece of audio on every lane is sent to Melodyne.
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yeah that's how it is here, it might just work in a way that melodyne doesn't recognize -
we are looking at an awesome new feature imo but ofc its gonna need some consideration over time
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05-27-2022, 07:21 AM
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#181
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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05-27-2022, 07:22 AM
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#182
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
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This makes my eyes twitch. The existing solution is pretty usable.
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05-27-2022, 08:21 AM
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#183
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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"This makes my eyes twitch."
Why? It's only a rough. On/Off buttons can be little or without colors.
"The existing solution is pretty usable."
You have to use mouse modifier to unable or disable a section. You haven't to do this with my solution. You have to click on the on/off button to toggle between disabled or enabled section.
With my proposition, items are bigger and there are less parasites elements like yellow stripes or dark track sections. Items are better separated with a distinct yellow bar.
Last edited by ovnis; 05-27-2022 at 09:08 AM.
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05-27-2022, 09:27 AM
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#184
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 80
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I don't get all this swipe obsession or the play marker system. I was hoping for a more PT style playlist system. I would love to record into a specific (target) lane. And if there are a item that are overwritten that item would move down to an available lane. To hide lanes would be sweet too.
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05-27-2022, 09:36 AM
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#185
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
Why? It's only a rough. On/Off buttons can be little or without colors.
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I feel those would be a bit "harder" to quickly select between them since its a smaller target and in the middle of the items rather than the bottom lanes we currently have, which by it's own width is a bigger target and therefore easier to click faster from any point of the item at any zoom level. If possible (but apparently not) the best would probably be how the current takes system works, just click on any part and it'll be the active part, but meh, just my 2c, no one but devs know how it'll end up working considering multi-track editing, playlists, versions, etc. maybe it is better how it is now considering it all, maybe not.
Last edited by tonalstates; 05-27-2022 at 10:56 AM.
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05-27-2022, 10:51 AM
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#186
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonalstates
I feel those would be a bit "harder" to quickly select between them since its a smaller target and in the middle rather than the bottom lanes we currently have, which by it's own width is a bigger target and therefore easier to click faster from any point of the item at any zoom level. If possible (but apparently not) the best would probably be how the current takes system works, just click on any part and it'll be the active part, but meh, just my 2c, no one but devs know how it'll end up working considering multi-track editing, playlists, versions, etc. maybe it is better how it is now considering it all, maybe not.
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I agree with the target size issue. I also think this exchanges one high-information UI for another, more distracting one, which is worse in that the waveform display is interrupted.
In any case, we all know that design suggestions (UI or otherwise) are received, at best, with disdain, so it doesn't really matter. I think the current draft is useable and reasonably clear without being a distraction or getting in the way. No doubt it will improve further as the feature develops.
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05-28-2022, 12:12 AM
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#187
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svein
I don't get all this swipe obsession or the play marker system. I was hoping for a more PT style playlist system. I would love to record into a specific (target) lane. And if there are a item that are overwritten that item would move down to an available lane. To hide lanes would be sweet too.
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Yes...
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05-28-2022, 08:07 AM
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#188
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
You have to use mouse modifier to unable or disable a section
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You can just click on the hashed area under the region.
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05-28-2022, 08:09 AM
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#189
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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thx. It's noticed!
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06-07-2022, 08:07 AM
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#190
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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is there any way we can get dynamic split and crossfades to work with media item lanes?
I like being able to split at points to chop things up, and crossfades can work great with vocal takes, but if you collapse them im not sure if the fades get taken into account
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06-08-2022, 01:14 PM
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#191
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svein
I don't get all this swipe obsession or the play marker system. I was hoping for a more PT style playlist system. I would love to record into a specific (target) lane. And if there are a item that are overwritten that item would move down to an available lane. To hide lanes would be sweet too.
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Overwriting audio in a lane when recording should be optional. A user should be able to select which lane is to be recorded and not select based on where there is space (to prevent overlaps).
Here's an example for how I use that in PT:
I would sometimes punch in a word or a part, overwriting the audio in the same playlist (=lane), because I know I won't be needing it anymore. Then, when I feel satisfied with that playlist, I create a new one and record the next take on to it.
That way I control when I want a new lane to be created, rather than having it auto created just because of an overlap.
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06-08-2022, 01:45 PM
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#192
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odedd
I would sometimes punch in a word or a part, overwriting the audio in the same playlist (=lane), because I know I won't be needing it anymore. Then, when I feel satisfied with that playlist, I create a new one and record the next take on to it.
That way I control when I want a new lane to be created, rather than having it auto created just because of an overlap.
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Absolutely!!
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06-09-2022, 10:54 AM
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#193
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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The best shouldn't this?
If we click on the fixed lane button (when they are play markers + all fixed track enabled):
-copy output of lane play markers to new lane at top of track + only show this new lane.
If we click again on the button:
-back to previous fixed lanes + all the play areas of the previous created track are "not played" (like that we don't lost our previous comp and we can compare with solo fixed lane/unsolo).
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06-12-2022, 09:56 AM
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#194
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: ASU`ogacihC
Posts: 3,913
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Insert Play Marker ?
Is there a way to insert play marker at edit cursor?
For example, I use action to move cursor to zero crossing on item in fixed lane, I then want to add a play marker there, but don't see any action, is it buried in sub-menu or just not an option yet?
Thanks!
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06-12-2022, 11:34 AM
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#195
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my arse in Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 2,033
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New takes in existing lanes
If you loop record in a FIL track, each take creates a new lane. Great.
If you want to do the same further along the track, the new lanes are created in addition to your existing ones - first new take goes on the last lane. Not so great if you ask me.
A simple custom action moves all the new takes to the existing lanes (in creation order) like so:
Custom action:
Hope this helps somebody.
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06-12-2022, 12:16 PM
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#196
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 193
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This is all really pretty great.
However, it seems that as long as we are only using the height of the track, dividing it further with each new lane, we are bound to hit a wall where it stops being usable. 30 vocal takes aren't unusual.
Regardless of the visual aspect, I think this approach forces Reaper to reinvent a lot of things which already exist - crossfading lanes to name just one. They are, at least currently, much less flexible than existing crossfades. However, the current fade-between-lanes approach shouldn't be an issue at all in a top-track situation, since it could be edited just like any other track - no need for special crossfades.
The current system also requires a "currently playing lane" to be clearly visible, instead of having a top track which is independent of the rest. Again - Pro Tools is the one that got it just right IMHO.
Going back to the visual issue -
Every other DAW shows lanes as separate "tracks" that are indented or somehow otherwise clearly descendants of the main track.
Cubase actually started out with dividing the track into lanes, just like Reaper, but eventually stopped and is now showing the lanes under the main track, just like everybody else.
Cubase - Abandoned old Style just like Reaper's way:
Cubase - New Style (since 2011):
Ableton:
Logic:
Pro Tools:
Studio One:
I realize that the feature is already deep into development, but I really think there's a lesson to be learned from the fact that literally everybody else chose that way to do it.
As they say - make it nice, don't make it twice
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06-12-2022, 02:32 PM
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#197
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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I like the actual Reaper behavior. Of course, there are lots of thing to improve, but it is going to the good path (for me).
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06-12-2022, 05:24 PM
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#198
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Ukraine, Kyiv
Posts: 173
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I found it convenient to work in fixed lanes with midi. And I would really like to have the action "Explode MIDI note rows (pitch) to new items on new item lanes".
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06-12-2022, 05:37 PM
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#199
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Is it possible that one can only edit one MIDI item when two more MIDI items are overlapped on each other?
Currently, this can be very difficult to edit because the notes of other items appear in the item we want to edit, which does not make sense!
So we have to waste time making the item invisible...
Thx you!
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06-12-2022, 11:22 PM
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#200
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTsonts
I found it convenient to work in fixed lanes with midi. And I would really like to have the action "Explode MIDI note rows (pitch) to new items on new item lanes".
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This would be very nice!
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