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04-17-2022, 11:01 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 69
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Need Help Trouble-Shooting a Computer-audio Problem
A am hearing an audible whine coming from my new studio computer.
I decided to retire my older Win 7 studio computer, and build a new computer to run Win 10.
The new computer is built around an Intel i7 processor (i7 – 10700K), using an Asus Prime Z590-P mobo, 32 GB ram, a 480 GB SSD (Corsair Force MP510 M.2 – 2280) (system drive), and a 2TB Seagate Barracuda HDD (for storage). The peripherals installed on this computer include an Asus DVD drive, and a Star-Tech PCI 2-port firewire interface. There is no graphics card; the graphics are handled by the CPU
As with the older retired computer, the new computer plays thru my Mackie 1604 mixer with Firewire Card interface via firewire 400 (the Firewire Card does the AD/DA conversion).
After getting the new computer built and got the software installed (OS = Win 10), I connected it in my studio and discovered that there is an audible high-pitched whine coming thru the studio audio system.
1. The whining sound is constant and high-pitched; you could say the “floor-noise” of the audio system now includes a high-pitched tone to it.
2. I hear the whining sound anytime I am using one of three different audio software programs I have on my computer: Reaper, Cakewalk by BandLad, and Audacity. I do not hear the whining sound when the computer is on but not running Reaper, CwbBL, or Audacity.
3. The volume of the whining sound is increased and decreased as I raise and lower the computer input pot on the Mackie. The volume of the whining sound does not change if I increase or decrease the volume controls in Reaper, CwbBL, or Audacity
4. The whining sound is not present when connecting my older Win 7 studio computer to the audio system. From this I conclude that the whining sound originates in the newer Win 10 computer, and is not caused by the Mackie mixer or the Mackie Firewire Card audio converter
I need some help diagnosing and fixing the audible artifact.
What trouble-shooting steps should I take? On my to-do list is to borrow another audio interface (or bring the computer to another studio) to see if I hear the same artifact when playing thru a different AD/DA converter. While I am not hearing the whining sound when using my older Win 7 computer thru my studio audio system, it may be that the Win 10 OS is not playing nice with the Mackie Firewire Card drivers.
What else should I be doing to track this gremlin down?
Thanks for reading.
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04-17-2022, 11:44 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,690
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Is this a mobo with a legacy pci slot and you're using an old f/w adapter?
If the adapter is actually pcie then I'd be tempted to try a different slot but if the above is correct you probably don't have that option.
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04-17-2022, 02:52 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 69
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Hello. Thank you Stella for your reply.
I confess I am not exactly sure what you are asking.
From the Asus Z590-P spec web-page, this mobo has 1 PCIe 4.0/3.0 x16 slot, 1 PCIe 3.0 x16 slot, and 2 PCIe 3.0 x1 slots. I believe the firewire adapter is plugged into one of the PCIe 3.0 x1 slots.
So I can try moving the firewire adapter into the other the other PCIe 3.0 x1 slot.
The firewire adapter I purchased new this year. Obviously, firewire is an older technology so there is little that is "new" about it.
I appreciate the suggestion. I'm going to try and collect a little more data, and try this out if other things are not helping.
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04-18-2022, 01:38 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,690
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Yes if it's PCI it might be worth trying other slots. Also it's a pain to do but you could also transfer this fw adapter to the old pc to see if it does it there. It's just about ruling out everything you can.
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04-19-2022, 08:47 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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This is almost certainly ground loop induced noise.
I'll bet that both the mackie mixer and the computer have three pin power connectors with a safety ground.
It's probably just random luck due to (insert electrical engineering reason here) that the new setup has a noticeable problem that you didn't notice with the old computer.
Ground loops can be broken, but if it's a ground loop problem, things like driver versions, or which slot you use, or what operating system, won't make the tiniest bit of difference, because this is an electrical engineering problem, not an IT problem.
Last edited by drumphil; 04-19-2022 at 08:58 AM.
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04-19-2022, 09:12 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Polandia
Posts: 3,583
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Mainboard coil noise? Disabling C-states kills it in daily operation but indeed they still whine while Reaper is running. Can't quite remember where I've seen that, but there's a registry hack that completely disables "idle state" in windows (somehow more than offing all-C states in BIOS) and there's a chance it helps, but seems a bit too intrusive for my taste.
Some interfaces seem to filter this noise more than others (Tascam 2x2 that I otherwise don't like much has DEAD silent headphone out, speakers still catch the noise tho, even on balanced cables).
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04-19-2022, 09:16 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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Usually it's that the audio interface is disabled until you run some software that activates it, and the you hear the noise from the underlying problem, the ground loop.
Any time someone says there is a noise when the DAW is running, but goes away when you close it, it's because you only hear the ground loop noise problem when the audio device is activated.
Some devices, or combinations of devices, cause more or less ground loop noise, but the underlying problem is almost always a ground loop. Break the loop, and most combinations of devices can be used without such noise.
The answer is pretty much always to use balanced IO, with the shield disconnected if necessary to prevent two ground paths (which is usually called ground lift, but probably should be called shield lift, even if at some point they have to be connected somehow), and failing all other solutions, transformer isolation.
The electrical engineering answer to why some setups with a ground loop problem have more ground loop noise than others is beyond me, but the solutions are pretty much always the same. Break the loop.
Last edited by drumphil; 04-19-2022 at 09:29 AM.
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04-19-2022, 12:09 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 69
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Thank you drumphil for your reply.
Much of the audio equipment and cabling I used in my older (silent) Win 7 computer is also being used with the newer (noisier) Win 10 computer.
Except: the newer computer has no VGA output; only HDMI and DisplayPort. So I had to buy a new HDMI-capable computer display monitor for use with the new computer. The computer and display monitor are connected by an HDMI cable. This new computer display monitor has a "lump-in-the-middle" power supply, with the wall terminal being a 2-pronged plug (ungrounded, right?). The computer display monitor I used with the older Win 7 computer used VGA, had an internal power supply, and the cord terminated in a standard IEC plug.
So I'm wondering if the new computer display monitor is a cause of the noise I am hearing. In your experience, can an ungrounded display monitor be a source of a ground-loop hum?
I want to test this possibility out. But I'm pretty sure I don't want to spend money and buy a properly grounded display monitor just for testing purposes.
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04-21-2022, 09:49 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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I doubt the monitor has anything to do with it, but it's easy to test. Just unplug the HDMI cable while listening to the noise.
A good starting point is to reduce the setup to it's most basic configuration. With just the computer and mixer running and connected by the firewire cable, and no other audio connections plugged into the mixer, start reaper, and listen for the noise using the mixers headphone output.
If there is no noise through the headphones, then the noise is induced when you connect other devices. Next connect your studio monitors. Check for the noise. Is the studio monitor output on the mixer balanced? Is the input on your monitors balanced? If not there is a potential source of ground loop noise. If both the output of the mixer and input of the speakers are balanced, a ground loop is still possible due to the shield, so the next thing to try is snipping the shield at one end of the cable.
If the mixer output and speaker input are both balanced, are you using a balanced cable (XLR, or TRS), and not just an unbalanced TS cable?
If the I/O between the mixer and the speakers is unbalanced, then a DI box with a ground lift, or transformer isolation can be used.
If there is no noise, then start connecting other equipment till the noise happens. The trick is being methodical, so you can be sure of exactly what combinations of connections do or don't induce the noise.
Last edited by drumphil; 04-21-2022 at 09:59 PM.
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