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Old 10-05-2009, 12:58 AM   #1
tweed
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Default LIVE: still looking for a REAPER VST change/swap method while playing: 2years now:-)

THIS APPEARS TO BE THE GRAIL ON LIVE PLAYING - (taken from post down the page)
You can VOTE too!

Quote:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=135
you might wanna click on the vote thing on the right where it says: "Users who would use this feature" I think that's how you vote.

--- initial post below ---

[On the fly VST changing WITH CPU savings via FXbypass - via program change or other way / ideas ...yet... ?]

I'm hoping over the last few months there's been a some magic with maybe a new feature that's been useful for LIVE playing.

Don't wanna use FORTE, it doesn't sync really tight to clock. Rather be in REAPER alone without all the extra management issues of running forte as well, and the quirks.

Don't really wanna use KORE live as it doesn't build/change presets well, and a lot of other issues hurt for live playing.

That said they're both great.

For me, I was hoping that there'd be something I missed.

Way back I imaginged that I could:
jump to a marker and have automation and some way of having patches or even VSTs change. Long one I won't go into again here.

SO: is there perhaps a way to have entire FXchains reload via midi commands or something. Anything brilliant and actually creatively manageable without sending me back to the vibe that always reminds me of the logic audio environment multi-song updating mindless-hell of the 90's.

I'm having to admit a bit of mental exhaustion finding something that WORKS for playing live and changing VSTs (with processor savings - ie. FXbypass) yet doesn't feel similar to the, 'lost way under the hood' and hence not manageable musically vibe/workflow.

Thanks for thinking.

Last edited by tweed; 11-02-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:21 AM   #2
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You can try saving your VST configurations as projects. Then load as many projects as you can in project tabs. You can assign previous/next tab actions to MIDI program change.

Pros: no gap while changing sounds!

Cons: more RAM consumption.
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:24 AM   #3
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You could also use SWS extensions and snapshots to recall different channel settings then assign each snapshot to a midi command.Put each chain on it's own track and take a snapshot of chain/track one with all the others muted,then another snapshot of chain two w/ other tracks muted,then three etc....The muted tracks shouldn't use any CPU depending on your preference settings (Preferences-Audio-"Do not process muted tracks").
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:26 AM   #4
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sws's marker actions are pretty usefull also, when playback hits a marker, any action/macro can happen. good for live use i think.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:01 PM   #5
tweed
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@EvilDragon: previous/next tab actions via midi prg change's cool to know about. Can't use for plan A though wow, nice, thanks.

@emanresuym / @BenK-msx: yes, never got far enough with SWS extensions and snapshots, and I think in the past 6 months some new plug (ReaControlMidi?) that schwa told me/us-all about might help allow VST states to change via midi...

Kinda burnt out on it... though after attempting to use KORE which'll drive one nuts anything deep going on for live playing. (with it's current limitation as a VST) I'm back trying to go deep with JUST REAPER.

I figure the SWS and snapshots would be musical enough and not way psyco trying to remember everything.

The problem might be HOW do I change out VSTs when they won't respond to program changes.

I 'think' I'd like to try a midi command that basically loaded a different FXchain.

I think FXchains hold ALL the info of the plugins used? Like, the FULL state of the ENTIRE chain? I believe YES?


Anyone got any ideas for swapping out FXchains or similar?

thanks... great comments to motivate. cool!

Last edited by tweed; 10-05-2009 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:53 PM   #6
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there is a xenakios extension command 'load track template 1' 2,3,4 etc.
but can't for the life of me find how to assign a template to one of these numbered slots - v. little info i could find...


so - anyone know how to store a track template as #1 #2 #3 etc. so this action can work? would be pretty handy pandy.

anyone!?
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
there is a xenakios extension command 'load track template 1' 2,3,4 etc.
but can't for the life of me find how to assign a template to one of these numbered slots - v. little info i could find...


so - anyone know how to store a track template as #1 #2 #3 etc. so this action can work? would be pretty handy pandy.

anyone!?
You need to save them as 01 - Track Template, 02 - Track Template, etc.

and they need to be placed in the Track Templates Folder.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
You need to save them as 01 - Track Template, 02 - Track Template, etc.

and they need to be placed in the Track Templates Folder.
ahaa! Gracias Mercado

cheers
--

in that case Tweed, you can save (upto 10) fx chains as track templates labelled as described, then with the xenakios extension 'load track template x' command you can recall them via midi.

that combined with marker actions means you could automagically load an instrument setup at a certain point in a track, whether thats good for playback reliability i don't know.

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Old 10-05-2009, 04:41 PM   #9
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[wondering] IS the: 'load track template x' command practical for LIVE playing? Sorta like a forte vibe where the vsts are replaced, in this case hypothetically the temple invoked by simply going to a marker'd position in the song.



I'm really trying to gather together the brian-power to figure out:

- xenakios extension
- ReaScript (new? useful?)
- ReaControl Midi
- markers
etc.

All with muted/fxbypass (essential CPU savings)happening easily ON the main page - so viewable.

right? what'd I miss... and THANK YOU !!!!!!

Hoping to stumble up and find the most LIVE playing worthy way of getting it all together.

I'm sure not lazy, just puzzled over the extension WITH ReaControl Midi WITH marker ....etc..

Tips/Flow wearily WELCOMED!!!!

still thinking...

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Old 10-06-2009, 12:58 AM   #10
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If you are not in shortage of learning time or money, perhaps Usine would be a better choice for live:
http://www.sensomusic.com/usine/

Maybe it's even possible for you to use the free version - the limitation is not being able to edit sub-patches/scripts and the lack of dual core optimization.

Even use both - Usine as a VST in Reaper.
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:10 AM   #11
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@carbon: usine as a VST would be worth considering if it's light on CPU and really has some ability. Like most of us I've glanced at it and even had a think a few time about it. Ha, spending tons of time to make a decision is really logical so the forums are fantastic.
best to all.
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:47 PM   #12
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You might wanna give this a shot. I stumbled across it looking through KVR a couple of weeks ago and it's dedicated to just running Vst's in a Live performance mode. No stuff you don't need.

http://www.ifoundasound.com/liveprofessor/index.php

It's currently in Beta but is looking like it will be a great app for live performance using various Vst's. I've been playing around with it and works pretty damn good. Takes a little getting used to to get things set up but it definitely allows you to switch effects or effects chains on the fly. It also has a routing system very similar to Reaper's. I've been running it with a Behringer FCB1010 foot controller. Works great.

I highly recommend downloading the manual to go with the program.

The author seems really into it too. He's quick to accept and correct bugs and I've talked him into trying to add a feature that automates internal plugin settings when a "cue" is fired so you can do pans, fades, EQ or filter tricks, etc. That's probably a ways off though.

Check it out. It may be just what you're after. And hey, it's free and it appears that the author intends to keep it that way.
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:58 PM   #13
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very thoughtful.

wow, great that the number of related progs is increasing. um, was I too quick or does this ONLY work standalone? Have to check again...

Forte would be the first one to try to use IF it worked as a VST itself. appreciated. and hey, yeah, very cool. Gotta use REAPER though as there's other magic for LIVE playing with REAPER. JUST need to get a few features pumped up.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...102#post384102

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...926#post372926

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...481#post315481

etc. etc. etc.

It's SO close...

Last edited by tweed; 10-06-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:05 PM   #14
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If you have a 2+ core cpu, and a multiclient asio driver, use 2 instances of reaper.
Set all plugs to offline (uses no ram / no cpu).
On one instance make a track that is able to send the midi to the second instance so you can switch from one to the other.
Then use a control to somehow prepare the vsti(s) you need on the second instance and another to switch instance (using/not using that special midi track).

I use something similar, and while I play on one instance I can load a huge project on the other one without a single glitch.

It's a bit tricky to setup + you need the hardware, but then it's much better than anything I tried before (kore, forte, ..).
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:09 PM   #15
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>>> but then it's much better than anything I tried before (kore, forte <<<

@mbncp reading with interest, interesting... :--)
So, hmmm, trying to figure out how this can be more useful than one instance. I have 2 core CPU and multiclient asio driver...

SOoooooo.... more info please !?! What can you do this way?

plugins offline? as in FXbypass?
Just a basic idea IF you have time of course.

um, do you have any blank song you could upload here as attachment maybe?

oh, you mean play one instance then switch to the other?
confused a bit. though intriqued!

Last edited by tweed; 10-08-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 10-08-2009, 02:20 AM   #16
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They are many ways to do this kind of stuff, depends really on what kind of live setup you want/use.
In my case I use 2 instances so one handles all my synth that I use to play in realtime, while the other instance holds my bact track.

If you work on a song basis, using a pre-defined set of plugs, then you can use 2 instances, preload the song in one while you play the other. You need to see if your 2 core can handle it.

Another trick is to set one or more tracks offline/online (do a search in action, set all selected tracks to online / offline). When a plug is offline it is actually unloaded, saving ram (and cpu) where a plug that is simply bypassed still uses ram. The downside is that it takes some time to re-load them, that's why you have to set them back online a bit before. Could be a little tricky to setup but then you could have access to 2000+ instruments in a single project, using minimal ram and cpu.
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Old 10-08-2009, 01:31 PM   #17
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TOPLINE: for me, for one kind of gig I would just really need to have a ton of sounds available. I love the thought that I can have huge amounts of sounds available (even if in different tabs) that are either offline (cpu/ram saving) or bypassed (cpu saving)

The possibility that we may have an action to load a complete reaper FX chain is cool, yet, there's still gonna be that delay.
delay where the fxchain is loading. maybe your idea helps there?
===
@mbncp: i think a lot of us here would really be helped by some of these live-guru-tips ... like I mentioned, I'm struggling to find the best practices. Most of us know from experience it takes just as long to do the wrong stuff, obviously.

So, how does 'instances' differ from tabbed versions? Why don't you use tabs may I ask?

That's a big question that one... multiclient is needed because?
Because you HAVE to use instances rather than having tab already loaded though in offline mode for every song.

I mean, can't you load a new tab for every song and have full ram/CPU saving I thought maybe. Sorry to not be studied here on certain features. Crazed to get this going for LIVE.

Is it the sending of midi and or audio more powerful/manageable with instances? CPU better with tabs though? dunno myself.

I need to have the VST's sync to the tempo of the song IF (as for some songs) there IS sequenced parts playing.

Mainly though, REALLY hoping to start assembling with something that's 100 percent REAPER.

So, you would NOT use the offline tracks thing WITH the 2nd instance loading in back-ground would you?

I still haven't figured out the finer points of how you actually do the playing as far as different instruments/tracks goes.... is that all another subject entirely?

DO use some kind of 'markers' FXbypass/mutung etc. as WELL as the instances/offline-tracks technique..

I'm getting lost though will get it, hopefully before xmas! :--)

P.S. how would you use the action : set all selected tracks to online / offline in LIVE playing usage? Would I have to manually select tracks each load of the song, or have a midi to keypress (midi translator) do something clever?

Last edited by tweed; 10-08-2009 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 10-08-2009, 02:40 PM   #18
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lot of q's there tweed!

ones that got my eye:
think with tabs, as long as the RAM and cpu are ok when all the tabs are loaded, the non-active tabs take no extra load and should* (not checked) switch prettty quickly/smoothly from one to the other (whatever is stored in ram is helping there i believe)

as for online/offline of fx - as mentioned if you know where in a piece you want the effect to come online you can use the sws macro/action markers for that, so they can unarm one track/mute it unmute etc. and bring effects online, by just placing it a bar or two before time and should be fine. no buttons to press just place the marker.

the markers could also load the track fx templates - or bring fx online offline or of course both. as they can do any action, they could also switch tabs automatically too- so i reckon a combination of macro markers and templates/fx online/offline/tabs should be your ticket.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:07 PM   #19
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UPDATE 2: Having a great time with templates and sws/xenakios So: does anyone think the loading templates (with marks embeded and various tracks set certain ways) IS the most powerful way to build a live set??
===
UPDATE COMMENT: ooo.... markers can load FXchains...oh, er, that's track templates? ok, gonna have ta get going here on all this. So, template switching would be big glitches as not instantaneous etc. I guess.

===

yeah, it's showing a bit of my struggle back from a bit of 'get me-self LIVE' burn-out I figure. The old (and hopefully the new) ME, woulda dug right in and figured it out... Question-mass' are a bit weak/feeble/whatever, coming from me is what I'm thinkin'...

READ: 100 thanks..!

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Old 10-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #20
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UPDATE COMMENT: um, looks like there can only be 10 track and 10 project templates? I REALLY hope that my inability to create a new action was just my, inability. CAN there be more than 10?

===

Thanks to everyone here there's light appearing.

1) ok, templates loading via the extension(s) rocks. Can there be more than 10 of them? I guess create a custom action, I've just discovered might work. Will try.

2) I found I only had to name them 01 02 03 and they'd load. (project templates) Great pointer... thank you.

3) I'm thinking, have templates with a bunch of markers that fxbypass etc. obviously, and then just load another template when needed. Maybe even go for something like a ton of orchestral in one template, a bunch of pianos in another, etc.

4) Can a key/midi command be set for loading templates? I guess so, I'm thinking midi translator IF it can only be a key command.

5) I'm looking into track templates... any downsides/benefits to them compared to project templates? Glitching less the project templates? More/ess flexible with key/midi command loading?

uhhhh... cool

IF templates generally (with markers) work for LIVE then it's a matter of how visibly obvious can they be and of course more importantly how can they be best loaded from only the keyboard or footpedal?

And yeah, when I get over this and have a REAPER LIVE life finally CockOS will come up with PLAYLISTS or something and it'll go WAY up.

right? right!

Last edited by tweed; 10-08-2009 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:36 PM   #21
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yeh think the current extension supports only 10 templates - but (just guessing as not a coder) am sure SWS who is now looking after xenakios' extension could update it to include more if you ask directly ( i recall he's not always here so an email to his studio mail may be better) at least he can tell you if it's possible.

maybe try keeping it simple and have all instruments loaded in a project ( or a few tabbed) but offline, then online them with an action marker or button etc. just before you need them.

as long as you know whats coming you can work around the few seconds of load time.

getting together a live setup myself shortly, I was just muting unneeded tracks using (the 'do not process muted tracks' option in prefs to save cpu) to arm different effects, using markers, but may end up doing offline/online thing too. can get glitchs with muting/unmuting, devs may work on that, but is a tricky fix it seems.


as long as it works, don't matter if its ugly!
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:50 PM   #22
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@BenK-msx: yes, using the 10 track and 10 project templates max creatively could be good.

Just had a 90 minute go with it all. tons of stuff.

1) Getting a lot of stuck notes using snapshots. Though yes, snapshots are great yet only some VSTs retain their program. Like, take a snapshot, change a few of the program/presets and then hit the recall snapshot. Only certain VSTs will recall the patch. Somewhat logical of course though more to think about.

2) I thought perhaps snapshot made using marker redundant. What do markers do that snapshots don't?

3) Nice that you can inset a track between a bunch of tracks of a snapshot and it doesn't upset the snapshot. logical I guess.

4) track templates: even with a permanently set track one as a midi input track when I save then load in a track template track it forgets that I had the I/O of it set to recive midi from track one. The receive on the track template track is blank EVEN though I did save it with a receive from track one midi setting... ideas? fixes? bug? limitation?

5) track templates are brilliant as they can load and not interupt the playing of current VSTs.

6) Anyone know if there's cool ways to fxbypass currently playing track and unmute another? markers??? Going to the manual now on all this.

I really need to discover ways of calling via midi track templates, project templates or snapshots/markers

So, what do markers do that snapshots don't i wonder?

Last edited by tweed; 10-08-2009 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:17 PM   #23
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info about marker actions:

http://www.standingwaterstudios.com/markeractions.php

also you know you can assign a midi controller to reacontrolmidi program change, that then can cycle through/select presets on vsts/i's that have their own preset.
kind of handy.


marker could recall a snapshot too of course, they just handy for 'automated' actions/macros you want to occur at a certain point.


i would think the templates should remember your io settings, report to the bug squashers perhaps.

you can set a macro to unmute arm/ bypass fx etc. just knock one up in 'actions'
i have one that goes:

track: unarm all tracks
toggle record arm for track 1
unmute all tracks
toggle mute for track 2

and another that does same but other way round.

with 'do not process muted tracks' on, this auto bypasses the fx, so i can swap between two sets of fx for one input (guitar), action markers set to activate those macros are placed in the track so i can auto-switch from rhythym to lead sounds etc. if you don't want to mute (or mute glitches), include the 'bypass fx' action - may help, then mute.

one way to do it.
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:38 PM   #24
tweed
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great. I'm going deep on all this thankfully. much appreciated everyone. The go for it vibe I've had before. I'm gonna try to find out if it really is attainable for like, a LOT of keyboard sounds being available, without issues.

There's kore and forte though really, one app to do it all with one human interfacing is gonna be better than accepting that forte doesn't sync real tight as it's not a VST, [edit: together WITH REAPER] and there's additional processing to run it with REAPER, and that feeling i get that it's always gonna be up for replacement. Sorry to be thinking that as they're a wonderful bunch it sure seems like.

Plus with Native and kore I gotta ask myself if they could get it right with Kore 3 as it does run as a VST already. (which really is the essence of it's brilliance and as well, the still to maybe be improved, limitations) What a nightmare I make all of it. Shudders from the 90's early 2000's still, I think.

sheesh. I mean really. Is it ever gonna rock big-time (with an oh so human mind -mine- creatively) the way it is presently?

markers, templates (program and track) snapshots, extensions, actions, loading fxchains, midi command to invoke this and that etc. etc. options options options and mostly under the hood. Maybe after some sleep I'll feel up to try again.

Not sure if with my brain I'm gonna feel like I've got a handle on what's where and doing what.

Hopefully CockOS will just do a brilliant simplification of it all for LIVE. So that by looking at one screen page it's visually obvious. I heard the phrase or word 'playlist' mode in a thread around here months back.


man, would I love to know the effort was gonna work and wasn't gonna be fiddly and fragile. um, hey, I know fiddly and fragile in many ways quite well! hehesheesh

Last edited by tweed; 10-09-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:42 AM   #25
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tweed,

if you are having problems syncing forte to midi clock, try www.brainspawn.com/forum so you can find out where the problems are. for other people it worked fine, so there must me a particular problem with your configuration.

regarding reaper, to me it sounds a little like you are saying: i don't want a van AND a sports car, so mitsubishi, make my van go 250 km/h please right now (for the same price, of course). what you are asking is not so easy, that's why forte development has taken years of work (and lots of user input, too). just as reaper development for sequencing tasks.

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Old 10-09-2009, 01:51 AM   #26
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this is what works for me:

* build a track for each synth/chain you want
* right click record arm for any track. select "automatic record arm when track selected"

now when you select a track, it's your MIDI input track.
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Old 10-09-2009, 08:41 AM   #27
tweed
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Hey Fab, the Forte King around here I've thought..... thanks.

Yeah, with REAPER and Forte running and doing all the stuff with the clock in reaper, delaying one way then the other, using 2 way midi, to and from REAPER and SO many other things I tried.

There is no way Forte playing WITH REAPER is gonna have the playing of VSTs feel/sound as tight when actually playing them in REAPER alone (sounds like arpeg. and rhythmic ones, or even recording them back into REAPER. (REAPER to Forte and back to REAPER) LFOs and stuff just aren't tight.

That and the querilous unexplained things that cause crackling etc. You has obviously nailed it. Having done my time on this sort of thing I believe that anything I forced upon myself now (and previously, as i have WAY way done on this - to the point of forgetting way way more than I care to recall) will all be laughably 'typically' useless when it gets done simply.

Of course, like it's all done 100's of times, everything could fall into place, later today! hehehe

Yeah, forte haunts me as it's absolutely the best thing to use for live in many respects. Reaper doing .RfxChain switching via program change would be good in REAPER.
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=135

Still thinking.

And thanks for the ....um, tune-up! :--)

Last edited by tweed; 10-31-2009 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:14 AM   #28
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IMPASS: the snapshot load won't happen unless the marker/macro gets past the set mark point of course. Need solution. I've got SWS markers that recall snapshots.


Can I can get a couple of SWS marker macros to do the snapshot triggering with just a program change command?
The two marker macros are
!53213 SWS recall snapshot 1
!53214 SWS recall snapshot 2

Thing is, the snapshot will only kick in if I go PAST the marker obviously. Do I have to do a custom marker macro and nudge to the right a bit? How would I do that IF that's the only way.

I've search the forums, search thru REAPER's prefs, and had a think about 'chasing' event that I thought I'd resolved some ways back.

Anyways, anyone know if marker macros and snapshots play well together. Like, I hit the macro, it jumps to the marker, though the snapshot doesn't get triggered unless I PASS the marker point obviously.


Basically the following bit highlights why this is all silly echos of the 90's and horrors of complexity I numbly went thru like a lot of us.

As it stand it seems the marker macro, track templates, snapshots, etc etc thing is only good enough IF one know what the set's gonna be. For sitting in, jamming, auditioning etc.um, dare I say, almost Forget It.


Being to able to load RfXChains via prg/bnk change seems to be the solution.
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=135

and I' pretty darn excited about it as track templates do load sweet, yeah, all 10 of 'em. I figure RfxChains by loadable/saveable (bank/prg) without limits AND within one single 'setable' track would be worth whatever wait it takes. Check the vote thing below if ya like.

==== what's below was written first ====


Managed to get over my whimpering and get real dirty with SWS and actions etc. and along the way found this FR about being able to change RfxChains via bank/prg. change. One huge step better than the 10 load track template we can now do.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=135
you might wanna click on the vote thing on the right where it says: "Users who would use this feature" I think that's how you vote.

Last edited by tweed; 11-02-2009 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:52 PM   #29
reaperdeeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
this is what works for me:

* build a track for each synth/chain you want
* right click record arm for any track. select "automatic record arm when track selected"

now when you select a track, it's your MIDI input track.
Yeah ,thats how i do it too.
I would never load vsts or even complete chains in a live situation!!!
Too risky and far too long loading time.
My laptop (core 2 duo 2.4) can handle tons of plugins. Never would need to reload vsts.

have u tried cantabile???
http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:26 PM   #30
tweed
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Yeah, different requirements I figure. Thanks for the reminder of course.

I had the best time loading track templates...though like, uhhh... only up to 10 of 'em. No interruption whatsoever. That's track templates not project templates obviously.

Yet, with the track template loading it would load in another track whereas I would hope that being able (someday) to load in RfxChains it would replace the one in the existing track. So, I could have say, 4 tracks and only have to deal with the fxbypass/muting of them for as live track.

[with track template loading as we can currently do]
Having another track loading in as with track templates creates great difficulty I guess as 'already there' tracks just keep doing what they're doing.

Really, it's all about simplifying the creative thing and having a visual that doesn't force a ton of note taking/thinking. This all feels like freaking 1999 a bit. I'm smiling though!

So, yeah... thing is, the whole 'risk' thing would, for me be outweighted because being able to load RfxChains means TONS and TONS of custom sounds are right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yee!!!!!!!!!!

oops, got a bit excited there...

For jamming, try-outs etc. a lotta lotta buncha buncha sounds need to be available, right? It's not like a set that's been pre-determined.

Ok.. hey, I noticed there's now 11 votes instead of 8.... cool!!!! 'course 12 is more than 11.

I've crashed burned live enough that I could laugh when it happened. Crashing/Glitching (the possibility of) is my only macho move perhaps. And hey, that's the way we wanted it right?! hehehe!


IMAGINE if you wish: having say, two midi/vst tracks and, at the ready, 500 RfxChains that can be loaded into either of the tracks with a prg/bnk change command. Yes INTO one of the existing two tracks, for example. (um, and hopefully someday). So, one could be loading some huge RfxChain while you play the other. [with key-splits/transposing, effects, the works!] And all without creating any new tracks which really could mess-up a lotta layout stuff etc. etc. etc.

This can already be sorta emulated with the track template load thing I think. (up to 10 of 'em with an SWS action I think it is) Though it creates a NEW track and doesn't replace the existing one.

Hey, if it could be made to replace the selected track upon track teplate load, and, if there could be more than 10 that would do it for now. macro gurus???


You can VOTE too!

Quote:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=135
you might wanna click on the vote thing on the right where it says: "Users who would use this feature" I think that's how you vote.

Last edited by tweed; 11-02-2009 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:01 AM   #31
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Hey there. I'm note sure I understood what you're looking for, but I use a very nice reaper action (perhaps part of sws/xenakios) which is: "go to track nr (midi cc only)". The action allows you to navigate through tracks using midi cc values.

Using a midi converter utility and virtual midi ports, in my case midi ox and midi yoke, I get this very useful result:

By converting program change messages to this command, I type the number of the program in my controller's numeric pad. This number will be converted to a midi cc nr, which will navigate to the corresponding track.

Since midi cc is 0-127, I have to have 128 tracks active for this to work properly. But it works, so I can change the track using the controller, and consequently change the vsti that I'm using.

And, by using macros, I get cpu savings by deactivating the previous used track, bypassing fx or putting them offline, and activating the current one.

Is this what you´re looking for? Is it useful?
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:46 AM   #32
tweed
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that is very interesting and quite likely something new and useful for many things. great!
Would it be possible to look at what you put together as macros?

Quote:
And, by using macros, I get cpu savings by deactivating the previous used track, bypassing fx or putting them offline, and activating the current one.
I am guessing that the macros you use are effectively different from what I've fumbled together over the weeks.
The macro for cpu saving switching tracks/mute/bypass etc.

cool.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:03 PM   #33
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First of all, let me just say that the "go to track (midi cc only)" action appears to work in reverse. If the given midi CC value is 127, it will go to track 1. If the given CC value is 0, it will go to track 128. Hope I´m explaining clearly. Wish it wasn't like that, but it works anyway.

On with the explanation:
Let´s say I have 128 tracks, each with its own vsti, in an offline state, to save memory. Or instead of offline, they could be just bypassed. One of the tracks has to be selected, only one.

I create a custom action/macro like this:


Set selected track record monitor to off
Disable Master/parent send on selected tracks
Mute selected tracks
Set selected tracks record unarmed
Set all FX offline for selected tracks (or Bypass FX on selected tracks)

Go to track (midi cc only)

Set all FX online for selected tracks (or Unbypass FX on selected tracks)
Set selected tracks record armed
Unmute selected tracks
Enable Master/parent send on selected tracks
Set selected track record monitor to on


Save this custom action and assign it a controller number, midi channel 4 controller 26, for example. Use midi ox to convert the program change message into channel 4 controller 26. If you don´t know how to do this, I can explain. But try it with a knob or slider, slowly, to see how it works, and if it is useful for you.

Then, when you order a program change, it will deactivate the track you´re currently using, and activate the one specified by the program change message.

That´s it.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:51 PM   #34
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really clear, thank you! Will be trying this tonight.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:31 AM   #35
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joao.lnsa,

Could you please explain in more detail how you created the custom action?

I couldn't find

Disable Master/parent send on selected tracks
Set selected tracks record unarmed
Go to track (midi cc only)

listed in the actions dialog.


Better yet, would you be so kind as to share the keymap file you've already created?

Thanks.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:24 PM   #36
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musicman74, those actions are in the list either as part of original reaper or xenakios/sws extensions, try to update reaper and the extensions, they should appear.

as for sharing my keymap file, it would be useless because at the moment that custom action has a lot more complexity than what i've described, so it would be an incomprehensible mess to anyone.

try to update reaper and extensions, and find the actions, you should have no problem. don´t know why you´re not finding them.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:11 AM   #37
ajaym
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How I have successfully done this (i.e being able to switch instantly between VSTs) is to load a project group using the SWS extensions with one project tab per patch. (I have loaded up to 20 tabs with some fairly large VSTs with samples on a 2G machine. I'm not sure how much memory sharing goes on in this situation but there seems to be some, in that two instances of a VST with a several hundred meg piano patch don't seem to double the memory. I'm still investigating exactly how many patches I can load, but I would think quite a bit more than this, particularly using synths like Dimension Pro which are fairly reasonable in their memory requirements.)

Then I use MIDI-OX/MIDI-YOKE to convert the patch change messages from my master keyboard to MIDI CCs. This is because currently Reaper's MIDI action functionality seems to only work with CCs.

I reserve two patches (00 and 55) as unused on my master keyboard (a Korg X5D) and these are then mapped to the actions for previous and next tab. There doesn't at present seem to be any way of selecting tab (n) by sending a MIDI CC (n) which would obviously be nicer.

However this approach lets me randomly choose patches on the master keyboard without changing the computer-based patch, then if I select either 00 or 55 on the master keyboard, I can select prev/next patch on the computer. Since usually you know the set order, this is manageable if not absolutely perfect.

If your master keyboard has no inbuilt sounds (you're braver than me, for live use), or if you're playing guitar, and therefore using Reaper as a switchable FX chain this way, then you could just assign program change up and down through MIDI-OX/MIDI-YOKE to two arbitrary MIDI CCs and then assign those to previous/next tab, of course, rather than my 00/55 trick, because this suits my master keyboard more. (I'll assume, as a guitarist, you're using some kind of external MIDI controller of some sort to do this, of course).

Reaper is rock-solid in this mode and you can even change active project tabs while playing, there are no glitches. It also works for guitar effect chains; I've tried this too. The advantage of this approach is that each tab is a completely separate set of layered VSTs plus FX chains, and you can assign MIDI channels to each track in the project easily. Then you can save modified versions of the individual projects if you tweak just that patch.

Because all the projects are pre-loaded, you really can switch patches about as quickly as a hardware synth does - there's no load time because the project's already in memory. Also you can then assign some of the knobs on your master keyboard to track and master volumes - this will let you control the overall volume for the patch PLUS any individual layer volumes, and because the learn is per-track, your assignments will make sense across project tabs. This is harder to do with the 'all tracks in one project' scenario.

Another advantage is that if - worst case scenario - Reaper crashes, you can always load just one project at a time, e.g, a generic piano patch or something you can use; time is of the essence in recovery. Whereas the giant project approach is an 'all or nothing' situation since you have to reload the whole project. Also you are using just as much memory, if you load a VST on multiple tracks; you may as well use projects instead, IMHO.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:27 AM   #38
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If loading between songs is not an issue for you check out my SetlistManager tool I wrote for KORE 2:

http://mossgrabers.de/Software/Setli...stManager.html

I wrote this to workaround the limitations of KORE. If you are a little bit into programming you could also easily adapt it to Reaper.
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Old 01-22-2010, 02:16 AM   #39
tweed
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There's been SO much great stuff here. Much appreciated I bet I share with many. Myself, having done a lotta this and that (yet to try some of the latest errr, solutions) I had a couple of excited days with the updated SWS snapshots function and the fact that you can creat UNLIMITED amounts of them now dynamically, as in, they appear as you need them (beyond the default visibly/set amount)

Then realized that the mass of info that snapshots hold was causing audio glitches when they were loaded in. (I have a macro that does something like go to next track delete previous one I seem to recall working in conjuction)

Anyways, set that all aside when I realized that track templates, though slower to load did not cause ANY problems with the audio doing weird things. (last vst glitch-looping etc.)

Track templates are supposed to be getting some love at some point and of course you can automate only 10 of them at this point and also there's no 'window' for them like snapshots etc. etc.

I still figure the whole things gonna come together, playlists, live playing nirvana at some point this year.

There's a ton of tidbits and stunningly brilliant idea as post and feature request all over the place here from gurus. (search my name in the right side search box for mad ramblings and links to gurus/devottes)

Thing is, LIVE (the prep and the doing): it's gotta all be musical. From years of sequencer hell trying to literally live through the things I've become kinda beat-up I guess.

yeah, it's gotta be musical as in fast/intuitive.

Gonna have some fun with this page on the weekend though. Like most of us, I ain't never gonna stop trying. *--)))))

thank you!!! great to be here. whew. live with REAPER.

weep
er

P.S. midi translator, though way expensive is a huge step more understandable and powerful from the OX I'd think.
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Old 01-22-2010, 02:44 AM   #40
Sleep opposed
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First of all, im going to say i have not read all of this thread. Ive skimmed through it, so apologies if im repeating anything, but i thought i might share what i have come up with for live switching. This is what i use with my band, and so far seems to be working well.

Initial setup:

1 - Create tracks, Name using song titles

2 - Making each "title" track the parent, i insert other tracks with whatever synths/samplers etc are used in the song. Ie: one track has shortcircuit, another a bass synth etc, naming them appropriately. (note: at this stage, dont worry if there are more tracks than you can play at once. Just group them into what is used at each stage of the song, ie: in the verse there may be a synth played on a keyboard, and right after, samples triggered from a pad.)

3 - Repeat process for each song

4 - Make all tracks "record arm when selected"

5 - In the routing matrix, you take one of the tracks from the ones you need activated in a particular section, for example your "verse synth", and make it the master for Vol, Mute, and solo (track grouping must be enabled by right clicking over a track). You then take the folder parent track, and any other tracks you want activated at the same time, and assign them to be slaves for Vol, M, S.

6 - Step 5 is for one group. You repeat the process for each combination, and it doesnt matter if the folder parent tracks are in multiple groups in thr routing matrix....because they will be.

7 - bypass all FX, mute all tracks, deselect all tracks.

8 - This is the macro to run it all:

- Mute all tracks
- Bypass FX on all tracks
- Select all tracks in group No __
- Toggle FX bypass for selected tracks
- toggle mute for track __

* for some reason i couldnt get "toggle mute for selected tracks" to work.

I hope this is easy to understand. Its simple but it still took me a long time to work out. What weve done for live use, (our synth player has this project on his laptop) is to assign the first of each group/combination of tracks used in the song to a hotkey, for example: "1", then each group after is assigned to a key under neath it, ie: "q" and "a" if there were 3 groups for one song.

Apologies if there are any slight mistakes in the explanation, hopefully it is enough to work it out. So far it has worked flawlessly, with instant switching and fairly minimal CPU use.

Hope this helps!

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