Old 11-11-2007, 12:01 PM   #41
kenn
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When you eat at a popular, well-established but expensive restaurant you expect a damn good meal and no excuses or apologies. Anything less than 100% becomes easily noticeable. That's why I stopped dining at Digi and chose the reasonably-priced new joint in town with great quality, a huge menu and friendly service. The one that's prepared to put a suggestion box out front and let you know that new dishes are being added all the time.

Sorry about the extended food analogy - I'm hungry.
Heh

It seems to me that the "prog X @ $50 = prog Y @ $2500" arguments are usually oversimplified and ignore many features of program Y, and many realities of the professional user. Olzzon has some valid points however, and I agree with the main point that for creating music or audio-only programming, the high $$$programs don't offer that many more features than Reaper.

To torture your food analogy for a minute, Reaper is the new joint in town with great quality, a huge menu and friendly service, but you also have to be aware that one week you will get a fork and a spoon, and the next week they might add a small trebuchet that fires precut food directly into your mouth.

My point above is that the Reaper environment & toolset may be changing too rapidly for a pro user to feel comfortable in making a commitment to it. Especially if you've invested in countless hours becoming the master of the fork and spoon.

Another point that usually gets missed in the comparison is that the bigger $$$ pro systems are often used in post-production, which requires alot more sophisticated hardware, like A/D and D/A converters that are externally clockable, and the pro software has to be able to control these and to manage the synchronization with other video and audio systems. There is also the requirement to exchange audio files and edit lists with video hardware, and some post-production-only features like EDL import/export and auto-conforming to a video edit. Obviously the Digidesign-Avid hookup means ProTools holds a prominent position in this market.

[edit - disclaimer: I'm from the analog tape era, at one time I used to sell a system that competed with ProTools, my main area of specialization was post-production, and I bought a copy of SAW in 1995 to play with because nothing under a few grand could touch it. Oh, and i'm now a basement plunker mainly using Reaper and a mess of free plugins ]

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Old 11-11-2007, 01:00 PM   #42
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It seems to me that the "prog X @ $50 = prog Y @ $2500" arguments are usually oversimplified ...
Definitely. Another issue that rarely gets raised is the overheads of the business creating the software. REAPER is made by two guys doing all the work, so their overheads are very, very low, and it's economically feasible for them to make a profit from a $50 sale. I doubt that any company with the overheads of Digidesign (for example) could cover their costs, let alone make a profit from the same sale price.

The (non-music) software company that I work for employs over 30 developers in two countries, and our software sells for lots, lots more than REAPER. Simple economic reality.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:29 PM   #43
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Blah blah blah
A post full of facts, logic and pleasant discourse. Thank you for your contribution
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:37 PM   #44
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lets not forget something.
and PLEASE, if your a ultra hi end user useing hi buck 2500 dollar or more software dont get your skirts in a flap.
cos this comment doesnt apply to all hi end users.

but its just ive found "some" hi end users just are not aware of
how good some of the v reasonable cost audio software is.
or how far its come along.
in some cases assumptions are made.
or people sometimes dont have the time to "dig into" everything in the market.
in the past ive shown such people "alternatives"...
and in many cases get a "my goodness" as a reply.

heres something also interesting.
in the past ive seen TDM on occasion,
so i thought out of just curiosity i would see how far
alsihad has evolved over the last few years.
so off i go to the digi site.
and i'm amazed to find i cant find a very very detailed feature list like the cockos site offers. just overviews.
but not details like...how one might do specific things.
like midi filtering etc etc. or what does the piano roll look like etc.

(someone i know might be getting into recording, and of course has heard of you know what. but of course i'm suggesting reaper as an alternative. )

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Old 11-11-2007, 02:09 PM   #45
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so off i go to the digi site.
and i'm amazed to find i cant find a very very detailed feature list like the cockos site offers. just overviews.
but not details like...how one might do specific things.
like midi filtering etc etc. or what does the piano roll look like etc.
Their site isn't the easiest to navigate, but if you go to this page

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=54

you can download hundreds of documents covering a huge range of topics in detail.

Sorry to get OT, and this will be the first and last time I'll ever defend Digi, but I've always found their documentation to be excellent.

Cheers,

Malcolm.

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Old 11-11-2007, 02:09 PM   #46
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A post full of facts, logic and pleasant discourse. Thank you for your contribution
6 posts and you're talking to me about contribution? Pah! And you fight like a cow!
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:59 PM   #47
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It ALL depends on what you are doing.

I would never ever ever ever EVER call a piece of software "professional" when it couldn't do something as simple as show the contents of items as you dragged them.

I call it a 30k$ useless piece of crappy no right button paperweight, if I wasn't surrounded by suckers willing to rent it out every day

SO spare me this one is pro this one is not.

If you wanted to zoome in with your mousewheel the "pro " stuff sure couldnt do it for a long time...how pro
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Old 11-11-2007, 04:38 PM   #48
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Ouch! I think Pipe has made his position clear...

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Old 11-11-2007, 04:52 PM   #49
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Love and peace.

Or is that peace and love... I forget.

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Old 11-11-2007, 05:25 PM   #50
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Wow Reaper has some growing up to do, just like some people on this board LMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll let you guys figure out who that is ??????

Later
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:48 PM   #51
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Reaper makes my studio far better. Now I'm not spending money on so called "updates" I can afford good hardware. Reaper has completely changed the quality of my recordings!
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Old 11-11-2007, 07:31 PM   #52
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"Professionalism" is not about money.

Guy I know says "If you can't make a decent recording with a SoundBlaster and a Stick Mic... chances are you won't make one with ProTools and a locker full of mega-buck mics." I feel the same applies to software... it's just a tool.

D

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Old 11-11-2007, 08:39 PM   #53
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To torture your food analogy for a minute, Reaper is the new joint in town with great quality, a huge menu and friendly service, but you also have to be aware that one week you will get a fork and a spoon, and the next week they might add a small trebuchet that fires precut food directly into your mouth.
I will continue the pain of this analogy:

There hasn't been anything that would warrant this analogy. If anything, think of it more like this:

The recipes behind the dishes sometimes change, but they're usually not noticeably different.

There are new things added to the menu, but if you don't ask, you can still order your usual.

And finally, when there is something new (i.e. the 2.x theme vs 1.x), you can switch to the classic once and be done with it.

Ending that analogy, REAPER's fully backwards compatible with all previous projects, and to a large extent forwards compatible (meaning REAPER 1.0 will still load 2.x's projects, though with a reduced featureset).

-Justin
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:03 PM   #54
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I'm with Pipe on this one. PT HD is good if you want to do a big tracking session at 192 and not worry about whether the machine can handle it.
I can't think of anything else I'd prefer it for.
SAW was an admirable effort when I first saw it (no pun intended), a program that wrung a lot of performance out of the computers of the day.
Now? $2300? I would gladly pay extra to use Reaper, not the other way around.
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:31 AM   #55
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unfortunately, at least here in the US, it would go down more like this:

"I have our album that we recorded in PT. You guys have PT right?"

My answer is yes.

My workflow is:

1. Turn on System Restore
2. Install Pro Tools
3. Load PTS
4. Consolidate tracks
5. "Restore my computer to an earlier time"

I try to do as many of the steps before the client is here as possible

I have considered setting up a second machine, or even a virtual machine primarily for this purpose...

But since I make my living running a studio I *HAVE* to have Pro Tools.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:36 AM   #56
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My answer is yes.

My workflow is:

1. Turn on System Restore
2. Install Pro Tools
3. Load PTS
4. Consolidate tracks
5. "Restore my computer to an earlier time"

I try to do as many of the steps before the client is here as possible

I have considered setting up a second machine, or even a virtual machine primarily for this purpose...

But since I make my living running a studio I *HAVE* to have Pro Tools.

Sad but true, until you make a name for yourself and can dictate the terms, a commercially run facility needs to have pro tools.




MC
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:33 AM   #57
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Yes, it's true. If you can't pick your projects and have to be ready for anyone, you either have to have it or be really good at explaining why you don't.
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:38 AM   #58
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My answer is yes.

My workflow is:

1. Turn on System Restore
2. Install Pro Tools
3. Load PTS
4. Consolidate tracks
5. "Restore my computer to an earlier time"

I try to do as many of the steps before the client is here as possible

I have considered setting up a second machine, or even a virtual machine primarily for this purpose...

But since I make my living running a studio I *HAVE* to have Pro Tools.
Why dont you just leave it installed..? Its less than a gb, and would save time.. or do you just not want Pro Tools to exist on your system?!
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenn
To torture your food analogy for a minute, Reaper is the new joint in town with great quality, a huge menu and friendly service, but you also have to be aware that one week you will get a fork and a spoon, and the next week they might add a small trebuchet that fires precut food directly into your mouth.
I will continue the pain of this analogy:

There hasn't been anything that would warrant this analogy. If anything, think of it more like this:

The recipes behind the dishes sometimes change, but they're usually not noticeably different.

There are new things added to the menu, but if you don't ask, you can still order your usual.

And finally, when there is something new (i.e. the 2.x theme vs 1.x), you can switch to the classic once and be done with it.

Ending that analogy, REAPER's fully backwards compatible with all previous projects, and to a large extent forwards compatible (meaning REAPER 1.0 will still load 2.x's projects, though with a reduced featureset).
I appreciate your clarification. So, OK, you know that, and now we know that, but it will take a while yet to convince the wider group of professional users, right? Mainly because Cockos is still an unknown company in the pro world, and Reaper is a young app with just over a year of "released" (v1.0 +) versions. Your practice of frequent incremental releases (which most of us adore, myself included) may unfairly reinforce the impression that the software is in sort of permanent beta status.

By contrast, PT gets improved at a glacial pace, but also remains accessible and familiar to, and trusted by a very large group of users and clients.

Second, most of us know that some users and companies will just never deal with a company doesn't have a dealer network, or full-page ads in MIX, or didn't buy them dinner at the AES.

Finally, in a bigger company, it's just about impossible to buy or licence something in the shareware or download model. It's been my experience that in a big company it's easier to get approval for a PO for a few thousand$$, for a well-known product with a local dealer, than it is to pay a couple hundred via Paypal or credit card for shareware. (we usually have to hide such purchases in our expenses, heh)

Anyways - this thread is unresolvable. The the extreme ends of each position ("big $$$ is necessary for pro work, so those who buy X are naive", vs "app X ($50/200) = app Y ($$$$$), so those who buy Y are fools" ) are both naive, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

But don't let me spoil the fun
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:41 AM   #60
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Hypothetical situation. Phone rings...

Fred: "Hello... Reaper studios... how may I help you?"

Joe: "Hi, I have a large project I need to mix. It's in OMF and AAF formats. The studio I was working in had a fire and went out of business, thank god I had my masters. I need to mix 12 songs for an album in 12 days to meet a deadline. Can you help me?"

Fred: "We can't read and write OMF/AAF but if you can get those converted to flat files we can. We use this great software called Rea... "

(interrupted by Joe who doesn't have time to screw around...)

Joe: "... thanks anyway. Have a nice day." (Click)

Fred: (to business partner John) "Shit. We just lost a ton of money. I told you we shoulda got Nuendo and just paid the goddamn $1650! You and your freaking '..I don't see $1500 worth of difference...'" We still coulda mixed in Reaper!

John: "Bite me dude. Reaper rules! We don't want those corporate stiffs money anyway! It the re-vo-lu-tion man! Digi is shaking in their boots! Besides, don't worry... my kids band is coming in later. I think they got their allowances today..."

Fred: (Sighs and contemplates suicide... or better yet, murdering John...)



I will now run and hide...
Well, possibly, but it wasn't so long ago the conversation would have run

FRED :"Hello Digidesign studios how can I help"
JOE "One of our Studer machines has lost the time sync and we have to get 12 tracks mixed in twelve days, luckily the master tapes are still intact and the time code is good, can I send the two reels over to you ? You'll be able to read the sync tracks ok?"
FRED "Well, if you can get them digitized we have this great new 16bit digital system call Pro.."
Click....

Every system has to start somewhere, right now PT is the Industry "standard", but change has a habit of being permanent :-)

Actually, a depressing number of my conversations with clients tend to run along the lines of "We want to record an album and think we can do it in three days, our budget is about £600..."
Still, that's another thread...

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Old 11-12-2007, 07:49 AM   #61
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As sad as it may seem, I know of a pro mixer or two that has PT around on a second machine for two resaons.

First, if someone sends them a PT project, they export the tracks and then bring it into the DAW they like to use. Second, Beat Detective. Yes as much as the thought of using something like that makes them want to throw up, they have no choice.

If they are hired to mix a session, they can't go back and ask the producer to kick the drummer in the ass and learn how to play. But because other mixers with BT have fixed up a poor drum performance to something that is just alright, a client expects that from now on a mixer will fix the drums.

Can they fix drums without it, sure, but it takes forever and in most cases the client hasn't given them the time needed.

Now don't wory about me. I love Reaper and just use it for small home things. However if you want to take a big bite out of PT, it's not going to be price or support that will do it. What Reaper needs is.

ReaBeat

OK, that's my $0.02.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:19 AM   #62
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...if you want to take a big bite out of PT, it's not going to be price or support that will do it. What Reaper needs is.

ReaBeat

OK, that's my $0.02.

+1

This point is definitely worth more than $0.02.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:27 AM   #63
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Actually, a depressing number of my conversations with clients tend to run along the lines of "We want to record an album and think we can do it in three days, our budget is about £600..."
Yeah!

How dare anybody want to record a record without first attaining backing/funding from a significantly moneyed record company!!

Down with comparatively poor musicians!

All hail money!
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:50 AM   #64
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Pah! And you fight like a cow!
Watch it! Now my cow wants to kik your ass.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:06 AM   #65
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If I had to pay $2500 for recording software,well.....I didn't did I? For now I will still be recording onto my standalone unit but it looks like I will be using Reaper to mix.In the very short time (2 weeks) I've been using Reaper I see the HUGE benefits this type of software brings,but for my broke ass even $50 is a lot of cash.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:18 AM   #66
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ReaBeat
http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php...c_Drum_Editing
http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php...Editing_Update

.t
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:44 AM   #67
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+1

This point is definitely worth more than $0.02.
225.00?

I can't see how a preview for the auto split feature can be so difficult to figure out... sorry for my ignorance.



F.

PS: By the way... did anyone notice you can now freely drag fades in PT ? Does it still render fades to files by default? I think they had to change the whole logic of their fades to achieve this but I have not had the time to dig it out... anyone? Am I too OT?
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:45 AM   #68
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for my broke ass even $50 is a lot of cash.
Nominated for the most honest post of the week.
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:54 AM   #69
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The whole "interchange" and "compatibility " thing is, for 99% of reality in music making, a hillarious suicide

Lets think about this for a second

Reason number 1:

Manager "This guy has this thing in his bedroom, we need to be able to open his stuff."

Engineer "Ahh, so there's a new ADAT? Cool...becuase yeah, the vast majority of professional studios have now gone out of business because of the amazing tracks that people are doing in their bedrooms...or not...We need to be compatible, so we can lower our rates because people THINK they can easily make great albums in their bedrooms...OK where is this new ADAT?"

Like I always say, PT was a bottom up, from bedroom to breakroom phenomenon, not, as the shills and suckers try to say, a pro downward phenonmenon. It moved exactly the same as the adat did...exactly. First convince everyone in their bedroom that its "good enough". Next convince everyone that its the "Industry Standard" (though unlike PT, who DOES claim this, ADAT format IS actually a standard)

So, OK, lets move it, as the ADAT did, into the project studio paradigm...gee look how much better music and music production has gotten since then.......lemme quote Crunch...- !NOT

ok next on the compatibility thing, reason number 2:

Professional TV and film. If you are actually getting paid for professional TV and Film * AND * the client wants it in PT, go get PT.

Note I said "client" if he just wants it done, do it in whatever you feel like.

But again, IF the client wants it in PT, do it in PT

Hold on though, lets look at the majority of studios out there

the VAST majority

"Hey, smokemorecrack studios? This is NBC calling. I know you mostly record local bands and local accordian championships, but can you record the superbowl tomorrow? We need it in PT format"

If this seems likely to you, you better own a PT rig.

Reason number 3:

Because this is what the other engineers know how to use.

Wait, I thought you were running a project studio, like 99.99999999% out there?

YOU are the engineer, other people don't use your stuff. If you are doing "take all comers" then you need to change a LOT more than just your software. You need tax codes, fire escapes, fire extinguishers, building permits, liability, a commercial location, etc etc etc

If you are planning on very often booking out your room to people who use PT, then by all means, but a PT system.

Reason 4:

My clients expect to see a certain color scheme on my computer screen

ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh good reason!

When you go to the heart surgeon you tell the doctor which brand of scalpel to use right?

And music has gotten SO MUCH better with uninformed ignoramuses calling the shots right? Listen to that sweet, musical compression that turns modern albums into white noise

awesome

If your engineering chops are so low that your clients judge you one what pattern of pixels is sitting on your computer screen, you sure as hell aren't good enough to be charging money yet.

Reason 5:

Interchangability with other studios

There are parts of this one that make sense and parts that drive me BONKERS!!!!

First of all there's the assumption that studios arent going to mix the same albums they tracked. This ABSOLUTELY SUCKS

It also may be true. Record companies are frightened at this point of having albums mixed by anyone except the Fungus Brothers or a handful of other guys. Sure all the albums sound equally crappy now but hey...consistency is good

However:

I have NEVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER had a situation where the big name mixer guy was too stupid to drop time stamped wave files into his setup. His interns are savvy, or they get replaced. NEVER a complaint, not once...just the occaisional call " this track says 'rectal dispersion ' wtf is that?"

He does NOT want my version of the mix, except once in a great while as a two - track which will give him an idea of the way the band thought of the song (which will promptly be ignored as it gets cheesed to sound like everything else he's mixed)

He REALLY doesnt want my FX, unless they're already printed or as an alt take
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:41 AM   #70
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[winkie heads] .
*giggle*
You said "winkie heads".
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:40 AM   #71
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Yeah!

How dare anybody want to record a record without first attaining backing/funding from a significantly moneyed record company!!

Down with comparatively poor musicians!

All hail money!
I don't have any problem with poor musicians, I was one for a long time, but being a broke studio doesn't help anyone.
It is the music BUSINESS after all. If I decide to take a road trip across country, I expect to pay for the gas, saying to station owner "well, I only have $30, but I really want to make this trip, can you do me a deal?" isn't going to get me far, yet that's the kind of attitude I'm faced with on a number of occasions.

When I first started out, I used to cut people deals, especially if they were younger bands starting out. The trouble is you get known as the guy that will cut a good deal and then no one expects to pay the going rate and pretty soon you're going out of business.

It's all about finding a balance, having Reaper does mean I save a lot on software costs, but the studio rent only ever goes up :-(

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Rockrooms Studio
www.rockrooms.co.uk
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:51 AM   #72
jimmy v
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When I first started out, I used to cut people deals, especially if they were younger bands starting out. The trouble is you get known as the guy that will cut a good deal and then no one expects to pay the going rate and pretty soon you're going out of business.

It's all about finding a balance, having Reaper does mean I save a lot on software costs, but the studio rent only ever goes up :-(

- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio
www.rockrooms.co.uk
Money=talent? Nope,I don't think so. Although new developments make it easier for anyone to record their stuff and get it out there,it doesn't write good songs for you.Pitch correction doesn't make a good singer any more than a haloween mask makes me Ronald Reagan. I think(hope?) that all this just makes the real talent STAND OUT in the crowd. From a business perspective I would say if you are going to discount your service,then you should,in exchange,take some ownership of the product.If you don't feel the product will be profitable then make them pay the whole nut.
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:08 AM   #73
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Nominated for the most honest post of the week.
Did I mention I have 3 little kids to feed? (I'm gunnin for the first charity license.)
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:00 AM   #74
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If you´re in the music buisness and wan´t to make money.
Buy Reaper, and do some recording.
OR:
Buy ProTools and have someone else to use it for you, while you get a real job on a restaurant, to pay the hardware. Don´t ever expect Protools to pay for itself, unless you do Postproduction and comercials.
Musicians never has any money.

Back to the food anology. In my experience, the more you pay for the food, the less you get.
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:10 AM   #75
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Musicians never has any money.
absolutely!

when i was young and playing all over the midwest we never had a cent, never. booze-etc., girls, guitars, and sometimes food.......but not even an extra $20 in the bank!
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:20 AM   #76
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when i was young and playing all over the midwest we never had a cent, never. booze-etc., girls, guitars, and sometimes food.......but not even an extra $20 in the bank!
Some of us without musical ability would have gladly exchanged money for the "booze-etc., girls, guitars" (and just a drop of the talent)
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:53 AM   #77
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Some of us without musical ability would have gladly exchanged money for the "booze-etc., girls, guitars" (and just a drop of the talent)
thanks ken but i don't want to come across as too talented.....mostly broke back then, but you are right....it was damn fun!!!
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