Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER for Live Use

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-22-2015, 04:24 PM   #41
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Here: http://reaper.fm/sdk/vst/vst_ext.php#vst_host


They say
"Additional API functions are listed in the REAPER Extension Plug-in SDK. "

So it seems that a VST DLL simply - additionally to the named functions that are necessary to be a VST Plug-in - can optionally provide the named functions necessary to be a REAPER Extension Plug-in.

Hence Reaper's Extension API seems to attach not only to DLLS with the appropriate name and location (as described in the "REAPER Extension Plug-in SDK"), but also scans the existence of all REAPER Extension Plug-in function names in any VST when it's loaded.

Seems great !

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-22-2015 at 11:25 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 06:20 PM   #42
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
This does not seem to be a VST host...

-Michael
Well, there is the [vst~] object...

But Pd (or Max/MSP) doesn't need to be a VST host in order to do most things you described; and it seems that you want to use REAPER for its DAW/hosting/sequencer capabilities anyway, so you would only use it to add specific live performance oriented 'data flow' stuff to what REAPER already does. Pure data (or Max/MSP) would e.g. handle live input from MIDI hardware, apply whatever logic you need, and forward OSC to REAPER via localhost (and vice versa, if you require feedback). I have used such setups quite a lot myself, and they work pretty well.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:33 PM   #43
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
I have used such setups quite a lot myself, and they work pretty well.
Yep.

My intention is to use / provide something the to the user feels "monolithic" and "musician-friendly" configurable, though versatile, working flawlessly.

Even "Forte", a nice and often used dedicated live VST host, lacks several features (that Reaper already does have) and in a discussion in their forum I recommended "Midi Translator" to add them. For me too many $$$ for a non-monolithic solution, so I kept on searching.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2015, 11:10 PM   #44
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Many thanks for the hint.

Of course I will check this out before starting a new development project.

Thanks again,
-Michael (very astonished that I only now find out about an already exiting reaper "live" add-on, even though searching for such since a rather long time)

Last edited by mschnell; 01-26-2015 at 11:39 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2015, 02:42 PM   #45
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Veto,

I installed the Extensions and read the "Live Configs" tutorial PDF.

It seems that the tutorial PDF is a bit outdated, as many things in the "Live Configs" look differently than described.

I now want to assign a midi signal (Program Change) to a "CC-Value" (1st Line) in "Config 1", where I already placed a "Track".

I hit "Learn" and can select "Apply..." or "Preload ..." I don't understand what this selection means.


No matter which I select, I then get a box similar to the one described in the PDF, but the "Midi CC" filed is grayed out and sending Midi messages from my keyboard does not have any effect.

Selecting an already working (with a Midi VSTi) track as "Input Track" does not help.

I suppose I somehow need to select which channel and Midi interface the Life Config is supposed to listen to.

Any Help ?
Did you get this working ?

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-27-2015 at 11:26 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2015, 10:38 AM   #46
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Sorry for pointing to the outdated manual.
No need to apologize. AFAIK, there is no more recent documentation. I did ask Jeffos for more information. If I indeed get it running, I'm willing to help with updating the "Live Configs" manual (additional to some donation ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Concerning your problem, yes i and many others got it working, but using it with CC values not PC's.
I do not really see the functional difference between CC and PC, but I found a posting by Jeffos how to convert PCs to CCs. In fact I did not yet understand the details, but It should work. But in fact I was not able to "Learn" a CCs , either )


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
I dont know if it works with PC's for sure, what you probably would need would be a pc-to-cc-value converter in your chain, easy feasible with a tiny JS plug or a VST (pizmidi?) together with the MidiToReaControlPath plugin.
I already found both "MidiToReaControlPath" and "PCtoCC", as Jeffos mentioned both in the said post. I feel that using all these tools on top of each other is rather clumsy. So maybe one day I might do a more dedicated VST that includes "MidiToReaControlPath", "PCtoCC", and "Life Config", (with admission by Jeffos, as SWS is open source).

Anyway, I'll try "MidiToReaControlPath", "PCtoCC", and "Life Config" inside of Reaper ASAP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Or use some external software (oscIIbot script, Pure Data, Bome midi translator?, ...).
I already tested some of these. But piling such programs on top of each other seems even more clumsy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Or since you are a C++ dev become a member of the SWS team and extend Live Configs that way.
Do you think they are interested in such a project ? In fact IMHO the first viable thing (for me) to do on that behalf would be to update the "Live Config" manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
...
Thanks a lot for the pointers !

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-28-2015 at 10:43 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2015, 11:50 AM   #47
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
in the first place, but it might be the case that you did not configure your MIDI device properly. To register MIDI to actions/parameters you need to tick "Enable input for control messages" in the Reaper prefs in MIDI device section (dbl-click your device).
If you figured that out already please ignore my post.
The midi device does work, as a VSIi in a track can nicely be played from the masterkeyboard. I'll check the "Enable input for control messages".

EDIT:
=====

After activating "Enable input for control messages" the Midi Learn seems to work (at least the Window closes when I move a controller and the next "Learn" request asks whether to remove the previous assignment.

AND IN FACT: This also happens with program change !!! (and with key-press)

Lets see where this gets me.....



EDIT:
=====

I seem to understand.
- A CC is assigned to a config table and any value of the controller (0..127) will trigger the event that is described in the appropriate row of table.
- A certain PC value is assigned to a complete "config#" - table and selects this table to be active (there seem to be four of these tables)
That is why I would need to convert PC to CC
And to do that I need to feed the Midi output of the converter plugin back to the "Control Path" to make LiveConfig see it. And this is only possible with a VST such as MidiToReaControlPath.

BTW when feeding the Midi Events via MidiToReaControlPath I supposedly don't need to activate "Enable input for control messages" for any hardware device. Correct ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Of course i cant speak for SWS but afaik they are always happy about new contributions, just as the reaper user base would be.
Not least taking into consideration that many users are shying away taking that step from Reascript to full extension coding, myself included
I found "Juce-VST", which claims to make it easy to create a VST. I am really interested in trying that... But Doing something to be included in SWS seems a good idea as well.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-28-2015 at 12:18 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2015, 01:00 PM   #48
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Update:

I was able to create a new track and add "MidiToReaControlPath" in it, and (after deactivating "Enable input for control messages"), I could "Learn" CCs in "Life-Config".

So I do have a starting point to play with.

Just another question:

I do have PCtoCC. When d/lding it I assumed it is a JS plugin, but it seems to be just a text file. How to "install" it ?

Thanks for your help,
-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2015, 02:47 PM   #49
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

(Funny that JSFX files don't have a dedicated File extension....)

Works !!!!

After "Learning", the controller (I used channel 16, CC 60) is mapped to PC messages from my masterkeyboard and the little dot moves correctly through the rows in the "Live Config" table.

Great !!!
Thanks !!!

BTW.: If it is possible for me to become part of the SWS developer team, the really simple idea I would suggest is to add a configuration setting that the PC messages (that already do arrive at "Live Configs", and right now seem to switch the active Table #), optionally can be used to fire the Action in the appropriate Row corresponding to the PC number sent with the message.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-29-2015 at 05:20 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2015, 06:25 AM   #50
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

As I did not get an answer by Jeffos, I started to rewrite the "Live Configs" manual on my own. I'd like to come back with a PDF ASAP, but I don't know how to handle copyright issues,as of course most of the text is taken from the outdated version

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 03:43 PM   #51
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Veto,

Now that I can route PCs as CCs to LiveConfig, changing rows as desired, I am trying to set up multiple tracks with VSTis.

The goal is to use the PC buttons as "Sound change", hence the value is not a "Program #" that any VSTs is suppose to digest, but just a "row #" for Live config.

The Idea is that Live Config will enable the appropriate track with the desired VSTi and send a "PC #" that is configured in that row and of course independent of the row # itself.

Now in track 1, "MidiToReaControlPath" is configured to route channel 16 (which is created by PCtoCC) to ReaControl and other channels to the Midi path (of the track)

The VSTis live in several different tracks and I now would like to route the (remaining) midi stream from track 1 to those tracks.

By default seemingly every track gets the midi input directly from an external device.

How to route the midi stream from one track to another (similar to routing the audio stream) so that plugins in a central track can modify the midi signals before they reach any of the VSTIs ?

In fact I found that I seemingly can set the trackl to receive from a "Midi Bus" (e.g. B1) but I don't find out what exactly is meant by that or how I can send Midi data from an FX chain to the bus.

Thanks for any pointers
-Michael (trying to setup something decent from the beginning and not use multiple workarounds)

Last edited by mschnell; 02-01-2015 at 03:58 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 06:09 AM   #52
Klinke
Human being with feelings
 
Klinke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Berlin / Germany
Posts: 758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
That of course would make things a lot easier.

In fact a DLL is just a set of named functions that can be called by the host. Hence "in principle" the same DLL file could be as well a Reaper Extension and a VST, by providing both sets of named functions. (This might be such a "special means".)
I think there is a better solution, it seems that a VST instance can access the Reaper API directly (without the need to write an extension and some communication between both worlds), see the section Host in the following page:

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/sdk/vst/vst_ext.php

But I havn't ever tried this by myself. If this works, I think everything you need would be possible to write as a VST plugin.
Klinke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 03:57 PM   #53
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klinke View Post
it seems that a VST instance can access the Reaper API directly
Yep. I got this impression, as well, and there obviously are several VSTs - including "MidiToReaControlPath" that work that way.

I understand that in a VST, you just provide as well the VST-related named functions and the Reaper API related named functions and Reaper will attach to all of them.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2015, 04:01 PM   #54
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
i did not understand what you're trying to set up...
This issue itself is not directly related to the "Program Change" stuff. I want to implement a central Midi Modifier and use it's output as input for all other tracks (rather than the midi in devices Reaper attaches to).

In the Reaper docs I found a (very short) section about Midi Routing between tracks using the buses "B1", "B2", ..., I did some testing but was not yet able to really understand how to make use of that, I'll do some more tests ...

Thanks,
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-02-2015 at 11:22 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2015, 03:52 PM   #55
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Hi Veto and Xenakios,

(Back from some experimenting...)

In fact I don't really know what the "input track" select does. I left it on "none" and this does not seem to matter.

In fact I was able to solve the Midi Bus routing issue (I will include this in the upgraded Live-Configs description I am doing right now).

Now, I can forward all midi events, but the program changes, to the multiple tracks that contain my audio VSTs.

But this leads to the next question.

With any row that gets selected in Live Config, I not only need to activate exactly one associated track (this does work now), but also send a dedicated Program Change message (plus in future several more midi messages) to the VSTs in that track, to have them switch to the desired sound.

I don't yet understand the meaning of any of the rightmost five fields in the Grid LiveConfig provides. Is it somehow possible to configure midi messages to be sent on activation ?

If not, I suppose I should modify the PCtoCC JFSX script to additionally send out translated program change messages. Or is it viable to use a kind of "Configuration" (including all parameters) for each "sound" of each VST ? Where and how are those stored ?

If so: Is it possible / viable to have a JSFX read a (ASCII) file from disk that holds a list "PC-Number -> Midi Messages to be sent" ? Or will I need to do such a list right within the JSFX script. This seems rather inflexible when providing the stuff to others.

What do you think ?
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-05-2015 at 11:12 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 05:09 PM   #56
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
I'm sorry i'm in a hurry right now so here's just the short version (edit: at least i thought so ):
I'm very happy that you bother to write down all this !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
The "input track" auto-routes incoming midi from your performing device (f.e. midi keyboard) to the track you configured a Live Config row to.
row 1 active: midi device --> input track --> track 454
row 2 active: midi device --> input track --> track 342
Does that mean that using this, I should not configure the input device, not a Midi Bus with the tracks themselves ?

A problem would be that the program change messages are not allowed to reach the tracks, as they are meant to control "Live Configs" and not the VSTs in the tracks (that would switch to the wrong programs)

Moreover I have three Midi input devices that send signals to Reaper, Wich would "input track" select as a source ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
if you do not know yet what the last 5 columns do, then you probably missed about 80% about Live Configs awesome feature set
I am aware of this. In fact I am still not "using" it but trying to understand Live Config and Reaper itself on that behalf.

In fact I think I don't understand what the settings in the last 5 columns do in Reaper and how I create the settings, files and actions that are to be accessed by Live Config. (I never decently used Reaper as a DAW yet, my primary purpose with it right now is a live tool.)

So I have no idea yet what a "track template", an "fx chain" or an "fx preset" exactly is or what exactly an "action" is and what it can do. Of course I'll try to find the Reaper docs, but I hoped you could provide a hint, what of all these complex concepts might be best fitting for what I need firstly.

In fact, a Life Config row activation should unmute a track and here we have one or more VSTs. The VSTs usually would expect PC messages and with those switch to a certain "sound". So one way would be "activate track and send some Midi messages". This looks like the straight-forward way for non Reaper users, accustomed to hardware boxes.

I feel that a more "Reaper-like" might be to save the current "configuration" of the appropriate VSTs (or the track ?) that will include all VST parameters including the current Program/sound. I understand that a Live Config row can "upload" such a "configuration". But I still don't know which files (or whatever) those are stored in and how I create these files (or whatever).

Of course, being a programmer, "actions" that fire up a script look familiar to me.
But while I do understand that JSFX plugins are done in EEL and that they are "located" in a track's fx chain, I did not yet understand the concept of "Reaper scripts". Moreover I understand that additionally to this also Python user-scripts can be fired by Reaper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
2) save a reaper preset for every sound (done with the "+" button in the fx window)
Ahhhh, I see. You suggest it's better to use saved configs instead of generating midi messages to the VSTs.

I need to check what happens with the "+" stuff before going on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
You now need to make sure to setup the midi control path obviously, to change the rows by your midi controller....
That does work perfectly, including filtering out the incoming PC messages (that are converted and sent to Live Config as CC messages) from the Midi stream and using a Midi Bus to route the filtered Stream to the Track and hence to the VSTs. (With "Input Track" in Live Config disabled .)

Thanks a million,
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-07-2015 at 06:25 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2015, 11:46 AM   #57
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
I see, so you would like to perform on all 3 devices simultaneously while 1 row is activated.
That way you could use a reaper folder track as "input track",
kind of like that:

-input track (folder track)
----midi keyboard 1 (sending on MIDI channel x)
----midi keyboard 2 (sending on MIDI channel x+1)
----midi keyboard 3 (sending on MIDI channel x+2)
Great !
I'm going to experiment with that. In fact I already did some tests with folder tracks, but (other than the nice graphical layout), I did not find out how the folder hierarchy influences the routing (midi and audio) (even though I tried to understand the Reaper documentation on that behalf).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Is one of these also the control device (the PC messages sender)? Or is there a fourth device?
Yep. In the end it's even going to be more complicated (but I will first try to get a simpler version running):
- masterkeyboard 1: sending PCs (and keys and CCs) to one Midi interface on two different channels. Supposedly only the PCs should be distiguished regarding the channels, keys and CCs will simply be merged for both channels resulting in the same actions.
- Masterkeyboard 2: sending PCs (and keys and CCs) to another Midi interface on a single channels (it only sends channel "1").
- Wind controller: sending keys and CCs to a third Midi interface
- Breath controller: sending just CCs to a forth Midi interface. This data stream needs to be merged with the data stream from keyboard 2 when an appropriate "row" is activated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Sorry i'm not completely following (anybody?), a rough signal flow chart with
A) your devices you would like to perform on,
see above
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
B) your plugins you'd like to play
Right now I want to use:
- NI Kontakt VSTi with multiple sample Instruments (right now I use it in a mode that selects instruments via PCs, but maybe this is not the best way withing Reaper )
- SWAM "Flutes" VSTi by Sample Modeling
- DEXED (free DX7 emulation VSTi)
- effects (such as Convolution Reverb and Delay by Reaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
C) your device you would like to trigger Live Config with would be an immense help trying to figure out the routing. That would be awesome!
see above (In fact I feel this is a typical kyboarder setup.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Something to examine: i can imagine that the chance of getting hanging notes when switching Live Config rows would be much smaller (zero?) than changing sounds directly per program change (depends of vst of course).
Thanks a lot for the pointer. I'll be carefully following it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Also you then maybe missing other stuff because i think thats the whole idea of "Live Config". Configure your live set off stage and then play away with what you configured beforehand.

...
That is what I am tying to research right now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
... It can currently be written in Python and EEL with the same basic functionality but each with pros and cons. Perl was also supported until not so long and Lua will be in near future.
Seems really versatile and complex.... Is it also able to modify midi streams ? (Don't answer here. I opend an additional thread with this question.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
JSFX (written in EEL) is meant as a realtime effects processor (audio and MIDI).
That is what I already did understand

-Michael (Thanks for the great discussion !!!)

Last edited by mschnell; 02-07-2015 at 11:53 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 01:21 AM   #58
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
- if you need to filter out PC messages (used for controlling Live Config) only for that keyboard you would need to set "Pass through source PC" to "No" in the PC-to-CC-value plugin and MidiToReaControlPath to only route CC's to control path on that channel. That way PC's are filtered out of the stream and the remaining MIDI can be used for performing.
I already do this.

I unsuccessfully tried to described that in a previous message, where I asked why this did not work (using a "Midi Bus"). It now works fine. The bug I introduced was activating the "Midi bus transfer" from one track to the other and forgetting to deactivate the input from the midi device in the target track. Happily the "ReaControlMidi" Log nicely showed the duplicate messages to me )

I understand that with this (routing a Midi Bus from the "midi input" track to the "audio VST" tracks, is an strict alternative to using the "input track" feature of "Live Config".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
- also dont be fooled of thinking that in one Live Config row you can't set multiple presets for all FX in that track , like i was, it can
I did find that feature .

Keeping this in mind, I will stop using a Kontakt "Multi" (that allows to select a sound in Kontakt by sending a PC message, but save single Kontakt sounds with "+" -> Save Preset.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-09-2015 at 01:59 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 01:13 AM   #59
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default Success !

Hi Veto:
Just to let you know.

With your help, I got a first installation up and running.

I did
- [1] a dedicated "Midi Input Track" that holds PCtoCC and MidiToReaControlPath
- [2] a Track for Standard Sample Sounds with NI Kontakt Not (!) using a Multi, but having LiveControl switch the sounds via "load FX config"
- [3] a track for DX7Piano with two instances of DEXED (slightly detuned) and one instance of ReaVerbate (also ReaControlMidi is necessary to map DEXED's Volume knob to the Volume CC)
- a set of tracks for Pipe Organ consiting of
- - [4] a folder track that holds ReaDelay with two "taps" creating different echoes left and right for enhanced stereo room feeling, and one instance of ReaEQ
- - [5] and [6] two child folders that each hold one instance of DEXED (with different PIPE sounds, together creating a single sound consisting of a set of stops) and one instant of ReaVerb (each with a different impulse file loaded for the different position of the stops in the room) (plus ReaControlMidi)

With LiveConfig I use three "Config"-Pages, the first activating the tracks [2], [3] and [4] alternatively, and loading FX setups for the plugins in these tracks, and two additional "Configs" loading FX setups for the plugins in tracks [5] and [6].

I don't use the "Input Track" feature in Live Config, but do the midi Routing via a midi "Bus" from Track [1] to all others.

Happily without me tweaking anything, the child tracks of track [4] get deactivated (getting no midi input) as soon as the folder track is muted.

Great !!!

Right now only one controller keyboard and only one input midi channel is active. I am sure that I will succeed in adding the others once the current setup is completely done and verified.

BTW:
What files do I need to save for a complete backup of such a setup ?

BTW2:
I am going to continue to try to update the updated "Live Control" documentation, and come back with a PDF ASAP.

Thanks again !
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-09-2015 at 04:36 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 04:32 AM   #60
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
great, you got it working
It was astonishingly hard, even though the nice SWS plugin could be used.

It would be great, if someone (me) could do a dedicated "Live Config" plugin, that provides only this part of SWS, but enhanced by the stuff I found necessary to make it usable e.g. by keyboarders, and maybe a GUI optionally restricted to the stuff needed in that environment which supposedly is not much more than "select Track" and "load FX config", but perhaps making the use of multiple config "Pages" for child-tracks more easy.

(But I would do a concept not before I am ready enhancing my setup for multiple controllers and multiple midi channels...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
I would probably just save the project, live configs should be saved to that too.
... including all VST ("FX") configurations ?!?!?

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-09-2015 at 05:41 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 10:52 PM   #61
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Hi
Veto and Xenakios:

I did a draft for an update to the Live Config Documentation:

http://www.bschnell.de/LiveConfigs_1.pdf

I would appreciate if you could take a look at it and maybe detect errors, fill gaps or provide any additional comments.

Thanks,
-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2015, 10:41 AM   #62
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Veto,

I of course did start a private communication with Jeffos, and in a first message he did approve my intention to update the docs.

Later I sent him the link to the PDF with the same request for revising, but unfortunately he did not seem to have any spare time right now for this.

So I would be really happy if you could take a deeper look and tell me your thoughts.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2015, 05:33 AM   #63
Jeffos
Mortal
 
Jeffos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,969
Default

Yes, sorry about that, kinda busy these days...
Anyway, THANKS A LOT for the update Michael! I'll have a look and report back as soon as I can!
Jeffos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 04:56 PM   #64
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Hi Jeffos and Vento,

As well for updating the Live Configs "Manual", as for completing my own live setup, I urgently need answers to some questions regarding "Live Configs", that I can't find out myself.

"CC-Delay"

In the "MIDI Controller & Learn" section there is a footnote talking about the Delay "Live Config" imposes to reactions on a controller change, which is very useful with e.g. sliders, but in a setup using buttons for controlling the configs the standard delay is not appropriate and should be reduced.

That is why the footnote introduces the "CC_DELAY" parameter. Unfortunately, it seems not to exist in my S&M.ini file. Just inserting such a line there does not seem to have any effect. Moreover I am not sure if I really work on the correct S&M.ini file, as the "Main Menu > Options > Open Resource Path" (described in the footnote) does not seem to exist either.

Maybe CC-Delay is not viable any more, as Live Config now features the "Smoothing" and "Tiny Fades" wheels, the meaning of which I don't exactly understand but maybe are used to replace "CC_DELAY" altogether.


Controlling FX parameters of multiple tracks simultaneously

For more complex Sounds (such as Church Organ) we need multiple tracks to work together to create a single "instrument". Here multiple tracks - each featuring a VST instrument - are active at the same time, and the output of these tracks is mixed together in a master track that might hold additional line effects and the midi input of the VSTI tracks might be necessary to be preprocessed in a track that hold pure Midi Effects and distributes the Midi output.

Obviously it's not possible to use a single line of a Config page to set effect parameters of multiple tracks.

I tried to accomplish this by using multiple Config tables (aka "Configs" aka pages).

Astonishingly it does not seem to be possible to use the same CC to control multiple Config tables by having them "learn" the same CC (and channel). I don't understand why this is blocked. Did I do something wrong ?

I want to avoid forcing a potential reader of the "Manual" do any EEL scripts to accomplish such a rather "standard" - even if not uncomplex - thingy. I think in the end I will provide some useful scrips but this should not be necessary in this early stage.

BTW.: The old Manual somewhere states tha there should be "up to 8 Configs", but in the new version I seem to be able to select one of only 4 config tables. For the said purpose it in fact might be appropriate to use more than four.

Any help ?

Thanks a lot,
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-01-2015 at 11:18 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2015, 10:21 PM   #65
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Anybody ?!?!?

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 11:19 PM   #66
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Sorry to be a PITA, but I really need help on this.

I found a video that might answer some of my questions, -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPmymNzA78I. But I don't understand enough French.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2015, 10:32 AM   #67
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
CC_Delay == Smoothing-control in newer releases of live config afaik (for up to date specs of live config see also here http://sws.mj-s.com/download/featured/).
I did guess this from the French video...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
To get to resource path alternatively run the action "show resource path" from action list.
OK...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
If multiple tabs (max are 4) dont work for your usecase consider to make use of reapers routing- and/or grouping-features and live configs input track.
The problem with multiple tabs is that - for a reason that I don't understand - you seemingly can't control multiple tabs with the same CC controller. In fact it does not make much sense to create multiple tracks with the same instruments and just different fx parameter sets, so I need to use LifeConfig to set these parameters. And if I run multiple VSTi's in parallel, they need to be placed at the top of the FX chain each in a track and hence LiveConfig needs to set the FX parameters for multiple tracks at the same time. Multiple tabs seems the correct choice here, but they need to run in parallel.

As a workaround I of course could do a JSXF that send multiple controller messages when I press a Program Change button. But before doing a workaround I'd like to make sure if this is really necessary / recommended.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-10-2015 at 02:25 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 10:11 AM   #68
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veto View Post
Please keep in mind that Live Config is able to select presets of multiple Vsts located in *one* track, so packing everything into one track might be an option.
(that would require different Midi Channels for Vsts, or using "Midi Buses")
Up till now I have the impression that I can't use multiple VSTis in a single track, as there is no track-internal routing for their audio outputī, but just a "chain" (that is why it is called that way). But maybe I am wrong.

Thanks a lot. I'll give that idea another try....

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 10:34 AM   #69
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Up till now I have the impression that I can't use multiple VSTis in a single track, as there is no track-internal routing for their audio outputī, but just a "chain" (that is why it is called that way). But maybe I am wrong.
Yes, fortunately for you, you were wrong there.

You *can* use multiple plug-in instruments in a single track. For 'track-internal routing', you can use up to 64 channels per track, use the "plug-in pin connector" to place any plug-in's audio output on other channels than 1-2, and then route the output from those channels to other tracks using sends/receives.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 02:26 PM   #70
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
Yes, fortunately for you, you were wrong there.
Great !

I'll give that a try !

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2015, 02:31 PM   #71
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Banned,

I finally was able to check as well the "Smoothing" as the complex audio routing with in a single track's FX chain.

Both does work as you suggested.

I'm going to update the would-be LiveConfigs manual on that behalf and several more issues and let you know when I uploaded the next version,

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2015, 03:18 PM   #72
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Banned,

I finally was able to check as well the "Smoothing" as the complex audio routing with in a single track's FX chain.

Both does work as you suggested.
Good to hear that it works for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I'm going to update the would-be LiveConfigs manual on that behalf and several more issues and let you know when I uploaded the next version,
Don't bother notifying me about LiveConfigs, as I have absolutely no interest in that feature. In fact, for various reasons I consider REAPER to be absolutely useless for live performances.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2015, 06:39 PM   #73
ELP
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
Default

sign
My opinion: any DAW and any VSTHost program which can not sync externally to vari musical timebase,
vari. live tempo changes is completely unsuitable for live playing/performances.
Unless you like it statically over fixed tempomaps and or static frames per second
like a better music player, as a good/super DAW mixing console, recorder for live,
but for live playing hard/soft synths or whatever you and I need the possibility to change the tempo(beats per second) during playing.
Timewaster.

Today there are only a few "modern" DAWs
like Ableton or Reason that can sync as slave to mus.timebase via M-Clock or Tempo changes via controller and perhaps only one very good LiveVSTHost named LiveProfessor, that can do the job for live.... and extern sync to musical timebase.
REAPER is a super DAW, no question, but "at the moment, @Devs " unfortunately totally unsuitable for such a thing.
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.

Last edited by ELP; 03-22-2015 at 08:04 PM.
ELP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2015, 11:09 PM   #74
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
My opinion: any DAW and any VSTHost program which can not sync externally to musical timebase,live tempo changes is completely unsuitable for live playing/performances.
For me, live performance just requires that the delay between hitting a key of the masterkeyboard and the sound to be heard is as low as possible, to allow for best sync between the musicians. No electronic "sync" requested at all, as there is no pre-produced material in any form.

I know several musicians who use Reaper for that purpose.

Reaper is perfectly suited for this, only the configuration is not exactly easy And I would be happy to be able to help by improving the LiveConfigs docs according to the experience I get with the kind support from this forum.

-Michael (hating loop-based and similar production which is "half-live" or short "Zombie Music" )

Last edited by mschnell; 03-23-2015 at 01:35 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2015, 02:59 AM   #75
ELP
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
Default

"No electronic "sync" requested at all, as there is no pre-produced material in any form."

the problem begins already, for example, if you play soft/hard synths with arps
or any other things inside that act with a tempo.... and thatīs alot.

And yes of course you can use REAPER for live performances, but than playing/the performance is very static, like from a tape or a playback performance^^.. you canīt really vari. the tempo, the feel etc.pp with all the other musicans on stage.


Nevertheless, I think it's obviously good if someone is bothered and cares about
And who knows, possibly the non possibility tempo sync as slave or to a simple live tempo change via controller story in REAPER changes maybe once....
I hope so
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.

Last edited by ELP; 03-23-2015 at 03:15 AM.
ELP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2015, 07:11 AM   #76
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
you canīt really vari. the tempo, the feel etc.pp with all the other musicans on stage.
Obviously my meaning is not yet clear.

When playing "Live" (as I understand it), Reaper does not "run". It's just used in stop mode with tracks armed and "Monitor on". So it does not impose or even know any "tempo". It's just like playing an acoustical Piano.

Regarding machine-generated arpeggios, I in fact don't know how they could be synchronized with a drummer, playing on an acoustical set and being the one who has the job to dictate the tempo.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-23-2015 at 07:16 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2015, 08:42 AM   #77
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
When playing "Live" (as I understand it), Reaper does not "run". It's just used in stop mode with tracks armed and "Monitor on". So it does not impose or even know any "tempo".
Well, that's only *your* use case. Some other users wish to use REAPER not only as a host, but also as a sequencer - unfortunately, REAPER sucks at that task.

(Btw, tempo-synced plug-ins *can* also follow REAPER's tempo while its transport is not playing, afaik.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
[...] I in fact don't know how they could be synchronized with a drummer, playing on an acoustical set and being the one who has the job to dictate the tempo.
It's not very hard to generate a sufficiently accurate MIDI clock with a varying tempo. But that discussion seems moot here, since you don't care about it, and REAPER does not support it.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2015, 03:44 AM   #78
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
But that discussion seems moot here, since you don't care about it, and REAPER does not support it.
In fact I don't need it for my music playing, but as I am a software developer as well, I of course am technically interested such "enhanced" use of reaper (as a sequencer) and will keep watching what might happen on the "external sync" issue (there will be version 5 soon ?!?!?) .

I could e.g. imagine things like a "Sampler" firing the playback of an item or track (and sub-tracks) due to a midi note-on event, converting note value, velocity, aftertouch, CC etc to plaback parameters and Midi output to effect VSTs.

Here external sync for arpeggio is just around the corner.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-24-2015 at 03:53 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2015, 03:59 AM   #79
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
In fact I don't need it for my music playing, but as I am a software developer as well, I of course am technically interested such "enhanced" use of reaper (as a sequencer) and will keep watching what might happen on the "external sync" issue (there will be version 5 soon ?!?!?) .
Oh, good to hear you *do* care, even if you don't need it yourself (I would imagine you *could* have a use for e.g. tempo-synced delay time plug-in parameters, even without need for a sequencer, though).

Still, nothing will happen, probably, given the 'live with it' status of bug reports like this one. REAPER's design as a sequencer simply seems to be flawed from the bottom up.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2015, 09:31 AM   #80
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 7,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Wondering, if LiveConfigs are so useful, why Evangelos Odysseas Papathanassiou does not use it? Is Evangelos stupid?
He obviosly has enough money to use a lot of dedicated hardware devices.

Of course there also are several dedicated software products that are more easy to use for exactly this task than Reaper plus LiveConfigs is.

The sexy thing about LiveConfigs is that you get it for free if you already have Reaper (which itself is a lot cheaper - and of course a lot more versatile - than the said dedicated products are). And if you already use Reaper, LiveConfig does not offer a to steep learning curve.

-> www.bschnell.de/LiveConfigs_1.pdf

(Please do provide comments on the document if possible... )

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 06-10-2015 at 02:02 PM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.