Routing: Frustrating

[Lawrence]

I just spent the last 1/2 hour trying to route Kontakt ouputs to Reaper channels with no luck. Very frustrating. All I want to do is map a simple midi file.

Moving to another host for this but if someone could make a video of how to do that, load a type 1 midi file and manually route the Kontakt outs back to the originating channel where the midi data is. Not working here.

[pbk]

I feel your pain. We need better track, track folders and MIDI management capabilities. It has been asked before.

Did you close and reopen Kontakt after adding channels in it?

[Lawrence]

Yes, the issue is sending audio back to the track whee the midi is coming from. When I do that it doesn't play. It's all very confusing coming from that angle manually.

Anyway, I'm printing the Kontakt stems in Studio One as FLAC (was dead easy to set all that up there) and bring them back into Reaper for my continued exploration.

[Tod]

just spent the last 1/2 hour trying to route Kontakt ouputs to Reaper channels with no luck. Very frustrating. All I want to do is map a simple midi file.

Moving to another host for this but if someone could make a video of how to do that, load a type 1 midi file and manually route the Kontakt outs back to the originating channel where the midi data is. Not working here.

Hi Lawrence, wow heh heh, 8,031 posts.

I think your going about this in a backwards way. You don't want to route the Kontakt outputs anywhere except the main mixer or maybe another subbus. What you want to route is the midi track. Just click on the I/O of the midi track your importing and and add a send. Send it to Kontakt and then set the routeing (Audio: Non; Midi: All => 1). Actually set "All =>" to what ever channel(s) you want that midi track to go to.

[Lokasenna]

1. Throw Kontakt on a track.

2. Open that track's FX window.

3. Right-click on Kontakt, and choose "build multichannel routing".

4. If Kontakt itself is set up properly for multiple outputs, Reaper will throw the tracks you need together and set up the routing.

5. Reaper won't play anything if you route the audio back to the Kontakt track because you're created a feedback loop, which is generally not a good thing. What you want is to throw all of those tracks, including Kontakt, in a folder, and use the folder track as your main bus.

[br1252]

One of the things you need to do to use a single track to handle both the MIDI to Kontakt and Kontakt audio to the track is to turn on "File/Project Settting/Project Setting tab/Allow feedback in routing".



..Bob

[Lawrence]

Ok, I'll try some of that next time.

@ED: Keep in mind that I want to build my routing one track at a time as I go so I don't want to use the "build routing" thing necessarily.

Thanks. I'm generally confirming my previous decision to pretty much just avoid doing this kinda thing, standard midi files, in Reaper.

As to the 8k posts... ... yeah... I probably need a long break from here. I do like the people here though and 5k of those posts are probably in the FR forum and the lounge.

[Lokasenna]

Standard MIDI files work perfectly in Reaper - I've never had a single problem. Even setting up Kontakt's outputs when I got the Steven Slate drums was fairly straightforward.

You're not letting Reaper do it automatically, and insisting on a method that's contrary to how Reaper works.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

You're not letting Reaper do it automatically, and insisting on a method that's contrary to how Reaper works.

Maybe. The thing is, I don't want to build 16 channels of Kontakt midi routing if I only want to use 4. I may use other instrument sources for other sounds, I don't know yet. Then you're talking (I think) midi routing and I'm talking midi and audio routing.

But I'll try it again with the same file, with feedback routing on, and report back. Thanks.

[brainwreck]

It takes a little time to wrap your head around it, but it's not hard after you get over the little hump. Still, I think that a more visual routing alternative would be nice in Reaper (not a matrix!).

[Tod]

Actually Lawence you don't have to have Reaper build all the outputs for you but you do need to select the right Kontakt configuration so that you will end up with enough outputs. Depending on which version of Kontakt you have, there are basically 3 choices. I know that for both K2 and K4 I have 4, 8, or 16 outputs.

As long as you pick the right one you can add outputs as you go.

Conserning the midi tracks I personally keep them separate from the outputs and I don't particularly like useing folders. Check my previous post, it should get you what you want. I think heh heh.

[Lokasenna]

You can also let Reaper build the outputs and either not use them, mute them, or delete the tracks entirely.

[Lawrence]

Ok, I tried it with another midi file. My first instance is Kontakt just for the drums. All is well there. I have another instance of Kontakt for the rest of the instruments, so I made that track a folder parent to get all of the midi going there but I still have to do the audio routing manually with sends to get those audio feeds back to their partner tracks.



If I "build multichannel routing" with the function from the FX window it creates all new tracks so I'd have to move all of my midi clips to those new tracks, delete the original tracks, then manually rename all of the new tracks to match the midi part names from the old tracks and then also delete any new tracks I don't need.

Wouldn't that function (or a new function) make more sense - for this - as "Build Multichannel Routing TO Selected Tracks" adding the routing from 3/4 down the line in succession to already existing tracks and stopping at the last selected track? This is just not - for this thing - nearly as easy as it is elsewhere.

Anyway, feedback routing allows the audio to get back to the source tracks so at least it works. Thanks.

[Lawrence]

Let me demonstrate how easy and logical this is, the same thing, in Studio One.

• Drop Kontakt on the drum track and load a drum module. No midi channels to route or set there because Kontakt sets it's midi channels in numerical order starting with channel 1 and the Studio One track defaults to midi channel 1. Done. Nothing else to do to hear the drums play.

• Drop the second instance on my bass track and load a bass module. Again, it defaults to midi channel 1 in Kontakt and on the track. Again, done. No midi routing to do, no audio routing to do.

• When I get to that third track later, after I get a basic drum/bass mix, I add a guitar module to Kontakt instance 2, it defaults to midi channel 2, I switch the AcGTR track output to Kontakt, select ch 2 there on the TCP and turn on multi out 2. Done. I do them one at a time like that as I build up the midi project.

Or I can just multiselect all of the rest of the midi tracks after the drums, change them all at once to output to Kontakt instance 2 and mute them all until I need them... until I assign each one a successive midi channel later as I add more sounds to Kontakt, switch on another output one at a time as I go.

I never change any midi channels on any instruments in Kontakt. My Kontakt modules midi channels are always 1,2,3,4... in the order they're added and the midi channels always match up with the output pairs.



P.S. When I imported that type 1 midi file in Reaper to test it, it created more tracks than are actually in the file, splitting some up and duplicating others.



The import dialog says "Expand 6 tracks..." since there are only 6 tracks there in the file, but the import actually creates 11 tracks...

[Lokasenna]

Reaper certainly isn't as automatic as other DAWs, but it's still pretty straightforward to set this up. Once you've got something set up, a track template will keep it that way for the next time. The following three-instrument setup took me five minutes:

1. Create seven tracks (eight if you want a folder for it all):

Flute
Flute MIDI
Oboe
Oboe MIDI
Cello
Cello MIDI
Kontakt

2. Throw Kontakt on the Kontakt track, and load a Flute, Oboe, and Cello module. Mine automatically set them to each use a different MIDI channel, and I just had to tell Reaper how many channels of output I needed. Not sure why it didn't pick that up automatically, since it does if you choose to have it build the routing for you, but I don't personally care since it took five seconds to fix.

3. Click-and-drag the I/O button on each MIDI track to the Kontakt track to create sends for your input.

4. Click-and-drag the I/O button on the Kontakt track to the three instrument tracks for your output sends.

5. Click the I/O button on the Kontakt track to open the Input/Output settings.

6. The three Receives from your MIDI tracks should be set "Audio: None --> 1/2, MIDI: All --> 1/2/3", corresponding to the channels Kontakt has each instrument set to.

7. If you toss a MIDI item on one of those tracks, or play a keyboard through one, the appropriate instrument should play.

8. Back in the Kontakt track's Input/Output, set the three Sends for your output tracks to "Audio: 1/2 --> 1/2", "3/4 --> 1/2", "5/6 --> 1/2" so that they match the outputs each instrument is set to in Kontakt.

9. Turn down the volume on the Kontakt track, as it will still be playing the output for channels 1/2.

10. The individual MIDI tracks should now control their instruments in Kontakt, and output to the corresponding tracks.

Is it as simple as Studio One? No. Is it still pretty easy? I'd say so.

Incidentally, if you make a Kontakt track and then use the "build multichannel routing" and "build MIDI input" commands, all of the created input and output tracks are set up properly. All you have to do is delete the ones you don't want.

[pbk]

As it has been suggested, the best way to achieve this in Reaper is to use different tracks for audio and MIDI. Enabling feedback causes several quirks, many times difficult to track down. If you want to organize your stuff better, then you can use folder tracks; however you will need to provide even further routing info since Reaper folders work as a submix by default.

All other DAWs I've used can reuse the same track for audio and MIDI so they don't exhibit these "issues". Reaper makes things more versatile at added complexity. The problem is that 99% of the time you just need the basic usage of multi-output VSTs and you want to organize your audio and MIDI in the same lane.

Perhaps there could be an option to "collapse" or link contiguously two tracks, for audio and MIDI, into one, associated with the respective I/O pair of a VST?

[nofish]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Yes, the issue is sending audio back to the track whee the midi is coming from. When I do that it doesn't play. It's all very confusing coming from that angle manually.

If I got that right, you're doing "feedback routing" there (even if it's Audio and Midi stream) and won't work by default unless you enable feedback routing in project settings, which breaks latency compensation.

FR:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2722

[pbk]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Is it as simple as Studio One? No. Is it still pretty easy? I'd say so.

Sure, then you start moving things around... then revisit your project after a year only to get a big WTF in your face. Messy, messy, messy. Trouble is entropy is always increasing in the universe, so this is bound to happen. A good tool should completely prevent this. All other DAWs I am aware of implement this right. Why not us?

We also need "track" folders and separators only for organization purposes.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Is it as simple as Studio One? No. Is it still pretty easy? I'd say so.

I wouldn't call it difficult at all. I wouldn't call it easy either. It's somewhere in the middle, for me.

Easy is very subjective. I'm sure there are some things that can be done in say, Cubase 4, that take about as long as this takes in Reaper, various clicks and things here and there to get it going (ducking?), that might annoy you now because you're accustomed to a better method in Reaper. So you wouldn't call that thing in C4 easy by comparison... even though it only ever took 15-30 seconds to setup.

That's all it is. It's just a little more troublesome compared to what I'm used to in Cubase and Studio One, with Cubase falling in the middle of those three on the easy scale... for that particular thing.

Anyway... thanks for all of you various help. I love Reaper and I will keep pushing forward.

[DBMusic]

Here's a very simple way:

Use a track hosting your VSTi with all Kontakt instruments routed to a single output (st1) and all MIDI inputs set on Omni. Make your VSTi track a parent folder. Make your MIDI tracks child tracks. Now all MIDI tracks should play fine. When you're ready to render just drag a copy of the MIDI items to the VSTi track, render the FX, then drag the render to a new track.

DB

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by DBMusic

Here's a very simple way:

Use a track hosting your VSTi with all Kontakt instruments routed to a single output (st1) and all MIDI inputs set on Omni. Make your VSTi track a parent folder. Make your MIDI tracks child tracks. Now all MIDI tracks should play fine. When you're ready to render just drag a copy of the MIDI items to the VSTi track, render the FX, then drag the render to a new track. DB

Thanks. Not the sequence (working sequence) I wanted to take but I'll take a look at that method on my laptop later I guess. It's pretty irrelevant for me in the studio though. The more I import random SMF's into Reaper to try some of these things the more BSOD's I get. The last 2 before I even loaded Kontakt. The last one in V3 directly after a fresh boot.

4 total crashes today in Reaper. 1 system Freeze and 3 BSOD's.

I appreciate you trying to help though. Thanks a lot.

[DBMusic]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Thanks. Not the sequence (working sequence) I wanted to take but I'll take a look at that method on my laptop later I guess. It's pretty irrelevant for me in the studio though. The more I import random SMF's into Reaper to try some of these things the more BSOD's I get. The last 2 before I even loaded Kontakt. The last one in V3 directly after a fresh boot.

4 total crashes today in Reaper. 1 system Freeze and 3 BSOD's.

I appreciate you trying to help though. Thanks a lot.

Yeah, I've tried other ways using output sends from the VSTi track. It works but I always end up coming back to the method I mentioned. For me, just simpler.

The BSOD's suck man! Knock on wood...I've had a crash once every blue moon but never had a single BSOD with Reaper. I hope you get that worked out.

DB

[Evan]

If....


... Reaper could show multiple 'lanes' of VUs for multi-out instruments, all on a single TCP track... we wouldn't need to create separate tracks below just for the audio outputs of VSTi

if...

... Reaper could send audio one way, and MIDI the other way, between two tracks, and this wasn't considered as 'feedback routing'... we could use a single track both for firing the MIDI to the VSTi, as well as acting as the audio output.

etc...

The situation is not too bad, but there is room for improvement.

I agree with Lawrence in that more simplicity is needed.

[Solar]

Originally Posted by Evan

If....


... Reaper could show multiple 'lanes' of VUs for multi-out instruments, all on a single TCP track... we wouldn't need to create separate tracks below just for the audio outputs of VSTi

if...

... Reaper could send audio one way, and MIDI the other way, between two tracks, and this wasn't considered as 'feedback routing'... we could use a single track both for firing the MIDI to the VSTi, as well as acting as the audio output.

etc...

The situation is not too bad, but there is room for improvement.

I agree with Lawrence in that more simplicity is needed.

Simply CAN NOT Agree more then this statement and totally feel Lawrence OP (pain) if I may say. Once again, this has been asked over and over and over and over and I just don't understand WHY Devs haven't since those many requests show or add a little spike of a light of these Requests. Still positive .... & I think now would be the right time with V4 being in Alphas

Cheers!!!

[Lawrence]

I'm gonna give this another look today on my laptop.

As to the BSOD's I have to assume they're somehow related to graphic rendering of midi data since I don't see that issue with audio projects. In the studio I have two wide screen monitors as one big extended desktop. I've never had that issue (crashing so much) with Reaper on single monitor systems. Even the same system when I only used one monitor on it.

P.S. Maybe this thread should be moved to the "tips and tricks" forum.

[Kainz]

I use usually this method (check the attached template):

You'll add e.g. a Kontakt to track 1 as an insert effect (labled as VSTi). The template in question is for 8 MIDI channels and for 8 stereo outs VSTi. Tracks 2-9 are for MIDI channels 1-8 (they're also set to record enable when selected and MIDI input: all MIDI devices and all MIDI channels, just select a MIDI track and you're set to record/monitor no matter what MIDI channel your keyboard(s) are using). Tracks 11-18 are used for the VSTi outputs (audio), the folder is just for organizing/muting the whole instrument - a buss. So yes, I'm using different tracks for MIDI and Audio (no feedback routing required).

I don't really like the idea of having the MIDI and the Audio on a same track. When I'm keeping them separated I can use e.g. MIDI fx JS and all kinds of fun MIDI stuff on MIDI tracks and then use whatever VST inserts/sends I want on Audio tracks. I think I'm the only one who actually prefers the Reaper's way of doing this heh? I think I have the most versatility this way. I kind of think it all as a outboard MIDI sequencer feeding into a hardware synth wich is routed to a console. And, IMHO, Reaper's way isn't really a pain in the ass at all if you use templates. Just do them once correctly with maby few variations (e.g. for 4, 8, and 16 MIDI channels and corresponding outputs for audio) and you're set forever.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Evan

if...

... Reaper could send audio one way, and MIDI the other way, between two tracks, and this wasn't considered as 'feedback routing'... we could use a single track both for firing the MIDI to the VSTi, as well as acting as the audio output.

Sorely needed!

[Lawrence]

Ok, I'll have to use "Build Routing" and use new tracks. No other way to do what I want to do. That method is workable, I just have to rename the new tracks as I go and also hide the mixer channels of the original tracks with the track manager, a few more steps but workable.

Thanks guys. I think I can live with this. I do like to keep my midi channels in order so I'll just change those as I go in the midi editor unless there's an action to force a clip to a certain midi channel without going into the midi editor?

[Lawrence]

Observation: As much as I dislike some of Reaper's dialogs with multiple check boxes like the automation thing, it occurs to me that here is one place where something like that might be useful.

If this was a dialog with check boxes (instead of an unnecessary alert box? I mean, you can't really "accidentally" trigger that function so I'm not sure why the alert is even there?) I could just check (drag marquee to check/uncheck in the dialog) the routings I need and it would only do those instead of (like in this case below) creating 64 routings when I only need 18.

[EvilDragon]

Great point there, Lawrence. Adding checkboxes (swipeable for fast de/activation), and perhaps shift+click to rename the tracks, then tabbing to select next track name to rename...


That would be much better!

[DarkStar]

Another plug for this Issue:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=424

I've added the recent suggestions to the Issue.

[Solar]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Another plug for this Issue:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=424

I've added the recent suggestions to the Issue.

Thanx a lot DarkStar!!! Now this would a very great amazing idea to have it built in R4 Alpha's so people can try your great idea while making in perfect till big release of R4. Devs need to take a look at this for sure!!!

Thumbs up!!! Me like

[Lokasenna]

I just wanted to mention that Reaper 4 is adding multichannel meters. I gather that they're still a bit rough right now, but we're also still in the alpha stage. I'll give them a spin with some multi-output work later today.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I just wanted to mention that Reaper 4 is adding multichannel meters. I gather that they're still a bit rough right now, but we're also still in the alpha stage. I'll give them a spin with some multi-output work later today.

Very cool.

Please (I'm literally begging here ) allow contextual mono meters at some point. I can't speak for others but looking at a track in a DAW mixer and just seeing a mono meter display for a mono audio source, and in the other case a stereo meter, and just knowing that that source is mono or stereo, is something that I do miss in Reaper.

Thanks.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

and perhaps shift+click to rename the tracks, then tabbing to select next track name to rename...


That would be much better!

Holy shit ED. I never even thought of that. Having an option there on that dialog or even a direct function with no dialog at all...

"Build Routings And Duplicate Child Tracks"

A function that only would be enabled if you did that for an instrument inserted on a parent folder. It would create an identical number of new routings and tracks as there are child tracks beneath the folder parent, and also name them all the same sequentially and hide the child tracks in the mixer.

That would be pretty nice.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I just wanted to mention that Reaper 4 is adding multichannel meters. I gather that they're still a bit rough right now, but we're also still in the alpha stage. I'll give them a spin with some multi-output work later today.

One of the first things I checked with multichannel meters... The problem is that the instrument outputs still need to be summed somehow, so they can all arrive on channel1/2 on the master. The way to do that is to create a summing track and enough sends from the multichannel instrument track to that summing track.

Quite cool to see the multiout metering on a single track, but I don't think it helps much in terms of mixing and setup ease.

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by gofer

One of the first things I checked with multichannel meters... The problem is that the instrument outputs still need to be summed somehow, so they can all arrive on channel1/2 on the master. The way to do that is to create a summing track and enough sends from the multichannel instrument track to that summing track.

Quite cool to see the multiout metering on a single track, but I don't think it helps much in terms of mixing and setup ease.

JS ChannelMixer mixes them down to 1/2, actually. The only issue I'm having is that I currently have no layouts to make the mixer track wider, so all eight of my drum outputs are stuck on a meter 1cm wide.

[gofer]

Duh! [slaps forehead]

[hopi]

Lawrence... I don't know if you got your issues all sorted, but Johnny Ginesse [sp?] had a fine video tutorial on his site about exactly how to do this with kontakt.

With Kontakt, you MUST first set up it's own outputs the way you want them, then it will ask you to close it and re-open it... IF you don't have the kontakts outputs set up, then you can't assign them to tracks in reaper.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by hopi

Lawrence... I don't know if you got your issues all sorted, but Johnny Ginesse [sp?] had a fine video tutorial on his site about exactly how to do this with kontakt.

With Kontakt, you MUST first set up it's own outputs the way you want them, then it will ask you to close it and re-open it... IF you don't have the kontakts outputs set up, then you can't assign them to tracks in reaper.

Yeah, I'm sorted. Thanks.

My Kontakt discreet outs were already previously setup from using it elsewhere (the Kontakt default internal mixer setup) and in Win 7 and even Vista here I can change I/O configs in Kontakt, add new discreet outs, whatever, and use them immediately without restarting Kontakt despite the dialog warning to the contrary. It worked the very first time I set them up with no restart of Kontakt.

So yeah, all good. Thanks Hopi.