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Old 04-22-2019, 07:47 AM   #1
Ricky Reject
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Default What happened to PCI/e audio cards?

Been out of the loop for several years - tried and failed at running a business. Upside to this is: time for music again

I run an older computer with Win7 and an EMU 0404 PCI-card. I was thinking about upgrading to a new audio card on my newer Win10 computer, but to my surprise there are hardly any PCI/e cards out there!

What happened while I was away? "Back in the day" USB was kinda OK-ish, but everyone always recommended to get an pci-card instead due to latency issues with most USB-cards.

Are those days passed? Looking at the music stores it would seem they are...
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:00 AM   #2
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People started buying laptops more than desktops, so manufacturers hedged their bets.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:00 AM   #3
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I've got a 1212m PCI card on my Win10 machine, works as well as I need it to. If you're building your own PC it's possible to find a motherboard with a PCI slot.

Last time i looked for a possible replacement, should I need it, this was about the only thing in my price range:
https://www.esi-audio.com/products/maya44ex/
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:07 AM   #4
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Yes, those days are passed... There are lots of advantages to USB. With a USB interface you have plenty of room for multiple XLR connectors, knobs, switches meters, etc.


You can also plug it into a laptop and you don't have to open-up the computer to install it.


I'm not sure if latency is necessarily better with an internal card... Latency is mostly caused (indirectly) by "other stuff" multitasking. You need input/output buffers with a multitasking operating system and a buffer is a delay. If the "other stuff" gets processed faster you can use a smaller buffer (for less delay).

You can get USB interfaces with zero-latency hardware monitoring (where the monitoring path doesn't go through the computer).


There are also Firewire and Thunderbolt interfaces, but USB still dominates.

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Old 04-22-2019, 08:22 AM   #5
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Right, cheers for the update! Upgrading to a new computer just to run my old 0404 is perhaps a wee bit overkill.

Guess I just shouldnt shy away at USB-cards then. I can clearly see the benefits with having some of the inputs and knobs directly on the box; right now I'm using a stand-alone hardware mixer and there's physical space too to be saved there I guess.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:39 AM   #6
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Be careful about trying to use an older PCI card in a newer computer. I used to use a PCI card and interface from Echo, my all-time favorite interface. There were changes made to the PCI spec after it was built, which rendered it unusable.

USB has come a long way, baby. I use a Firewire PCIe card in my computer with a Focusrite Sapphire interface. Pretty stable, but I think next time I'll go USB/USB3+ if I can.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:00 AM   #7
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A full desktop tower with pci slots is more of an investment for a raw HD video editing rig nowadays. The modern "desktop" machine is either the iMac form or the Mac Mini form. And of course laptops are popular.

The thunderbolt port is the "pci port in a wire".
If you need low latency performance for live sound work or live performance work, look to the thunderbolt audio interfaces. Firewire more or less evolved to thunderbolt.

If you aren't literally doing live sound or live performance, you don't need low latency. Then many of the USB interfaces would be just fine and no compromise at all. (You may even find that they equal the performance of your older pci card interface depending on what its performance ability was.)

The choices range from cheap to pro for all the connection types.
There are pro USB 2 using interfaces with low latency and high stability.
There were and are ratty cheap pci card interfaces that are as poor as they come. (remember Soundblasticator?)
And of course opposite examples of both.

The thunderbolt interfaces tend to be the higher end models nowadays. But you only really need this for live sound or live performance with extreme low latency needs.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:15 AM   #8
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That's why I'm still on my 2012 PC. Last motherboard year with a legacy PCI slot. I refuse to give up my perfectly working Delta 1010LT PCI sound card.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:16 AM   #9
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I turned my former main machine (powerful 8-core Acer laptop, Win7) into the secondary/slave machine and purchased a small desktop tower just to be able to use a Yamaha Dante accelerator PCIe card which provides 128 audio channels in and out via Dante audio-over-IP (single cat 6 network cable). Coolest thing ever! Something I have dreamed of my entire life! No more restrictive point-to-point routing (like with USB, Thunderbolt, ADAT, etc.), great low-latency performance and - obviously - very high channel count. Well worth investing into a small new computer that provides a PCIe slot. Laptop is also part of the audio network contributing 64 in/outs over its internal NIC port running Dante Virtual Soundcard.

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Old 04-22-2019, 09:51 AM   #10
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Are you talking about sound cards like these:

https://www.newegg.com/Sound-Cards/S...-57?Tid=161258
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:07 AM   #11
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Are you talking about sound cards like these:

https://www.newegg.com/Sound-Cards/S...-57?Tid=161258
Those are the very ratty cheap Soundblasticator cards I'd avoid.
Gamer stuff...
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:30 AM   #12
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Those are the very ratty cheap Soundblasticator cards I'd avoid.
Gamer stuff...
How 'bout these?

https://www.sweetwater.com/c703--PCI_Audio_Interfaces

I keep looking at the RME Hammerfall HDSP 9632 as a possible upgrade from my pair of M-Audio Delta 2496 cards, but more than likely I'll end up going with a rack mountable USB interface with 8 or more inputs. I can record four simultaneous inputs now, but eight would be great!
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:01 AM   #13
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That's why I'm still on my 2012 PC. Last motherboard year with a legacy PCI slot. I refuse to give up my perfectly working Delta 1010LT PCI sound card.
I've never been a fan of the change to USB audio interfaces either. I liked my old Delta card, and had to give it up because it didn't work with the "bridged" PCI on my last build. But I've never trusted or wanted USB, so I found a used FW MR816X, and subsequently got a great deal on an RME HDSPe AIO PCI-E card to which I have the Steinberg unit hooked up via ADAT. Works great.

Maybe USB with good drivers is fine, even for large ITB track counts of VIs and effects. I wouldn't know. I've heard good things about the Babyface et al. But I'm prejudice against the idea, as I want ultra-low latency, which the RME card provides.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:19 AM   #14
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[...]

If you aren't literally doing live sound or live performance, you don't need low latency. [...] you only really need this for live sound or live performance with extreme low latency needs.
I'd argue that anyone playing (as opposed to piano roll programming) software synths or using guitar ampsims needs low latency.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:29 AM   #15
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I'd argue that anyone playing (as opposed to piano roll programming) software synths or using guitar ampsims needs low latency.
I use a few software synths like Kontakt, but no amp sims. That said, I DO monitor EVERYTHING through REAPER, so even though I use a real guitar amp/speaker/mic when recording guitar, what I monitor while rehearsing/recording is through my studio monitors AFTER it's been through a Sennheiser 421, hardware mixer, A/D converters on my Deltas, through REAPER likely with some FX added, out the D/A converters and into the speakers I'm monitoring through.

64 samples is a real happy place on my two Delta 2496 cards, but 128 is livable too. Any more and things begins to feel noticeably late.
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Old 04-22-2019, 01:35 PM   #16
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Motu 828 USB 2.0 interface here, 64 samples is 3.3ms round trip. The other day I had a client who insisted on having auto tune, hpf, and reverb while tracking. Ended up with over 30 tracks with those 3 fx (reverb was a send for all tracks, others were all instances) as well as 4 busses with some processing and a few others for the headphone and talkback mix. RT CPU went up to 60% and still going strong but I decided to freeze some tracks at that point before things start getting buggy. This was all monitoring through Reaper.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:01 PM   #17
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If using a desktop computer workstation nothing stops you from buying an RME HDSPe series PCIe card. Still rocks most other products.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:27 PM   #18
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If using a desktop computer workstation nothing stops you from buying an RME HDSPe series PCIe card. Still rocks most other products.
Hell yeah. I've had an RME HDSPe AES for a few years now in a Sonnet Thunerbolt Chassis. It's so rock solid and while I mastering and am not so concerted with latency, it's my understanding that PCIe is still one of the best options for latency.

You can even use these with a laptop, and there are some smaller Thunerbolt Chassis options out there too.

After trying a few USB options for my home setup, I ended up with ANOTHER RME HDSPe card for at home because they are so stable, and now my I/O config matches between when moving between my two setups.

The Lynx AES card is a bit more affordable, but I also found it to be less stable and more of a headache.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:31 PM   #19
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If using a desktop computer workstation nothing stops you from buying an RME HDSPe series PCIe card. Still rocks most other products.
THIS!
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:44 PM   #20
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If using a desktop computer workstation nothing stops you from buying an RME HDSPe series PCIe card. Still rocks most other products.
Yes, definitely this. Probably the best drivers in the business. Also, even though they only have one midi input, I've found it to be much more accurate than midi over usb.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:55 PM   #21
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How 'bout these?

https://www.sweetwater.com/c703--PCI_Audio_Interfaces

I keep looking at the RME Hammerfall HDSP 9632 as a possible upgrade from my pair of M-Audio Delta 2496 cards, but more than likely I'll end up going with a rack mountable USB interface with 8 or more inputs. I can record four simultaneous inputs now, but eight would be great!
Glen - I bought my HDSP9652 pci card used donkey years ago & it still functions perfectly, plus I am running currently-updated drivers. RME are great at supporting their older stuff.

As far as I am aare there are still MOBOs out there that support PCI so I am not looking to change my pci card any time soon.
FWIW I also have a BabyFace USB interface on my laptop which, while its pretty good latency-wise, still doesnt come close to the bus based cards I have used.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:57 PM   #22
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I'd argue that anyone playing (as opposed to piano roll programming) software synths or using guitar ampsims needs low latency.
That's what I meant by live performance. Playing live.
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Old 04-22-2019, 03:36 PM   #23
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Yep, you can still find the occasional motherboard with a PCI slot (usually *just* one slot) but they will most likely be lower-end boards and there is a chance your card may not work with them (being bridged and all). I'm about to start a new build this summer and i'm going to try the PCI-e to PCI adaptor so that i can keep on using my old reliable RME 9632 card. From what i've researched there has been mostly success doing it this way with the RME PCI cards - not so much with some of the other cards.
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Old 04-22-2019, 04:06 PM   #24
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I just upgraded to a new Ryzen 7 build with old PCI slots and picked up a mint 9652 for cheap. PCIe should have at least a couple decades before it's completely obsolete. RME apparently still manufactures both. Board is relatively new: https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...pecifications/

From what I gather, going AMD/ASUS is the best bet for getting around the "PCI bridge" issues. PCIe is still the fastest way to go if you don't mind using a desktop. To get close on a laptop you need thunderbolt and who knows if that will stick around or get replaced. PCIe is really well established and still the best way to go, even if it's slim pickings.

Just because there are only a few vacuum tube manufactures left in the world doesn't mean that tech is about to disappear. It's just not mainstream anymore. Similar case with PCI, I'd say.

I was using E-Mu 1212m before but the latency improvement with RME is outstanding. 1212m caused random bluescreens in Win7 for me as well. I'm thinking about keeping it running in an XP machine as backup or side processing rig.
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:21 PM   #25
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Glen - I bought my HDSP9652 pci card used donkey years ago & it still functions perfectly, plus I am running currently-updated drivers. RME are great at supporting their older stuff.

As far as I am aare there are still MOBOs out there that support PCI so I am not looking to change my pci card any time soon.
FWIW I also have a BabyFace USB interface on my laptop which, while its pretty good latency-wise, still doesnt come close to the bus based cards I have used.
I've looked at this Asus mobo more than a couple of times since it has two PCI slots, and supports LGA1151 300 series CPUs.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16813119085
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:37 PM   #26
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Don't Fear The REAPER, I mean USB.

For the longest time I held on for dear life to my Delta 1010 (I had 4 of them)well a couple of them started to get scratchy inputs and buttons, so I recently (4 months ago)took the plunge and got a couple of Forcusrite's, 2 Clarett 8Pre USB's for my 2 main machines, and a little Scarlett 2i2 for being mobile with. Absolutely no issues with Latency or anything else, I wish instead of holding on to PCI and the Delta 1010's for so long that I had made the switch years ago, simply better in every way, no looking back.
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:19 PM   #27
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RME has a lot of current PCI-E cards that work with any motherboard, not just ones with PCI slots.

Here's a list:

HDSPe AIO - Analog, ADAT, AES, SPDIF and MIDI I/O
HDSPe AES - AES and MIDI I/O
HDSPe RayDat - ADAT, AES, SPDIF and MIDI I/O
HDSPe MADI - MADI, Analog Out and MIDI I/O
HDSPe MADI FX - MADI, AES, Analog Out and MIDI I/O

I've used the MADI FX for quite some time and it's probably the best audio card I've ever purchased (going back a long, long time).
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:01 PM   #28
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I built up an ultra-quiet tower computer about five years ago with 1394 (Firewire) and a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40...I can run 18 channels with a SP/DIF optical and an 8-channel ADAT-compatible unit. I'm very happy with latency, preamp quality, etc...and it's very stable. I also run lots of external stuff with USB...3 2-port MIDI hubs (on USB) and it's all OK

Used to use cards inside, but this is better performance than the old PCI boxes and much more convenient as I can plug the external rig into my laptop as well.

Have lots of hard drives (SSD and rotating) for storage and backup
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:43 PM   #29
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Don't Fear The REAPER, I mean USB.

For the longest time I held on for dear life to my Delta 1010 (I had 4 of them)well a couple of them started to get scratchy inputs and buttons, so I recently (4 months ago)took the plunge and got a couple of Forcusrite's, 2 Clarett 8Pre USB's for my 2 main machines, and a little Scarlett 2i2 for being mobile with. Absolutely no issues with Latency or anything else, I wish instead of holding on to PCI and the Delta 1010's for so long that I had made the switch years ago, simply better in every way, no looking back.
In what way better? If you are talking about the physical condition of your Delta 1010 or maybe the lack of up to date drivers I see your point, but my experience with Focusrite drivers has been little short of disasterous. I arrived at the conclusion somwe time back that they (or perhaps the people they sub their software out to) just arent in the same league as people like RME in terms of software driver authoring or maintenance. And this is after a considerable involvement with their support team a few years back trying (unsuccessfully) to resolve issues with exactly this sort of problem.

Sorry if this comes over as unforgiving and biased but I expended a lot of time and money to discover that they really didnt seem to know what they were doing. Hnce my suspicion that they ahve third party companies doing their driver software & possibly firmware.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:47 PM   #30
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I've looked at this Asus mobo more than a couple of times since it has two PCI slots, and supports LGA1151 300 series CPUs.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16813119085
.
Thanks for the tip. My current MOBO is an asus and has worked really well for years. Adding this one to the shopping list.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:53 AM   #31
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Well, no noticeable difference in latency, going to USB from PCI wasn't a step backwards as I had assumed it would be. and I can actually go lower than I could with the 1010's if I desire, sound is better (Pre's etc) and of course the added advantage of up to date drivers etc. From what I have experienced with the Clarett 8Pre USB's, the drivers are rock solid, and latency is excellent, perhaps not quite there with RME, but ...

From what I have read, the 1st generation Scarlett's had less than stellar performance and drivers, this seems to be well known and acknowledged by Focusrite. However as I have also read, and now experienced first hand, the drivers for my Clarett 8Pre's and the Scarlett 2i2(2nd Gen)are rock solid, they all perform very well, of course the Clarett's are a step above the Scarlett, better Pre's better converters etc etc, but for use on the move I have found the Scarlett to be more than capable.

My long held fear of going from PCI based AI, to a USB based AI, turned out to be totally unfounded, I wish I had done it earlier.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:22 AM   #32
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USB much cheaper and better audio quality nowdays.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:53 AM   #33
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Part of the reason I'm still grunting along with XP; I've tried my ESI MAYA 4ch PCI-e card in 3 different PCI-e slotted machines with all versions of Windows and only XP doesn't complain, fail or lag. And the MAYA 'just works'.

Yes, I could splurge on a spanking new USB IF, a new PC, WindowsX, but that would eat up my annual CDBaby royalties.
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:23 AM   #34
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Yes, those days are passed... There are lots of advantages to USB. With a USB interface you have plenty of room for multiple XLR connectors, knobs, switches meters, etc.


You can also plug it into a laptop and you don't have to open-up the computer to install it.


I'm not sure if latency is necessarily better with an internal card... Latency is mostly caused (indirectly) by "other stuff" multitasking. You need input/output buffers with a multitasking operating system and a buffer is a delay. If the "other stuff" gets processed faster you can use a smaller buffer (for less delay).

You can get USB interfaces with zero-latency hardware monitoring (where the monitoring path doesn't go through the computer).


There are also Firewire and Thunderbolt interfaces, but USB still dominates.
hmmmm...here is another story about reliability.

I currently have only midi interfaces over usb - but they have to be restarted every time I lit a lamp with a transformer and lighting tube.

Various brands, and just about every time.

No way I would use usb for audio - not ever. Clutter that bus with audio so midi is delayed - is my thinking.

It's simply not designed for that amount of constant activity - it can work a good while - and just freeze. Very convenient when having laptop - but reliable?
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:30 AM   #35
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@Nip: you're having an electrical problem.

That's one way PCI and PCIe usually are much more reliable than USB. The card is inside the box, so it usually doesn't show groundloop problems.

With USB, YMMV. But it's pretty reliable these days.

IMHO the transport medium doesn't matter. You can go up to 54 channels with USB2. If you need more, you'd better look at MADI or Dante/AVB.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:40 AM   #36
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Thanks for the tip. My current MOBO is an asus and has worked really well for years. Adding this one to the shopping list.
I've built about thirty machines over the last twenty or so years and always have used Asus mobos with Intel chipsets and Intel CPUs. I still have eight of them up and running in my house.

That said, I have also been looking at Ryzen CPUs with Asus mobo as a possible next machine to build since "Spoiler" has been brought to light, and there is no fix in sight for it. AMD and ARM processors are not affected by Spoiler. Like Meltdown it is an Intel exclusive.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:54 AM   #37
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That's what I meant by live performance. Playing live.
Ah, that makes sense. For some reason I assumed that you only meant in front of people in a club.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
If using a desktop computer workstation nothing stops you from buying an RME HDSPe series PCIe card. Still rocks most other products.
Still using an RME Multiface with PCI-E HDSP interface card on Windows 10 x64. RME updated drivers earlier this year so still supported! Stupid low latency, great processing, and I can use the RME DigiCheck and TotalMix applications.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:43 PM   #39
Nip
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With USB, YMMV. But it's pretty reliable these days.

IMHO the transport medium doesn't matter. You can go up to 54 channels with USB2. If you need more, you'd better look at MADI or Dante/AVB.
again...hmmmm... I wonder what jitter is at 96k?
I read that usb does not do that well even on two channels 96k.

I even at one point had an issue that my standalone DVD player playing CD had noticably more jitter than my RME card running the same data out. This turned out to be too long time constant in my external DAC PLL circuit I use that is now modified and nice. So changing that time constant from about 40ms to 4 ms as manufacturer had in their typical suggested circuit - it was fine. also upgraded all capacitors to high grade ones and result was magnificant.

I did this guys modifications
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMP...ampizator.html

I have another computer, the one I am writing this on - with a headphone amp when I turn that off - sometimes mouse freezes. So induced currents like that - not good for usb anywhere. So curcial how cables are drawn.

USB - I'd use it for anything but daw audio.

So RME PCIe stuff - that is the way to go on desktop computers, I think - as many already said.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:31 PM   #40
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again...hmmmm... I wonder what jitter is at 96k?
I read that usb does not do that well even on two channels 96k.
If that is something you worry about, buy a decent interface. Most good stuff has some sort of re-clocking, eliminating jitter problems. Besides, jitter was a bit of a problem in USB 1.1 times and still is a source of discussion for audio phools.

Quote:
I even at one point had an issue that my standalone DVD player playing CD had noticably more jitter than my RME card running the same data out. This turned out to be too long time constant in my external DAC PLL circuit I use that is now modified and nice. So changing that time constant from about 40ms to 4 ms as manufacturer had in their typical suggested circuit - it was fine. also upgraded all capacitors to high grade ones and result was magnificant.
I'll gladly believe that. There is some gear out there that isn't very well designed. But those don't have RME's, MOTU's or Presonus' logos on them. To name just a few...

Quote:
I did this guys modifications
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMP...ampizator.html
Oh, my dear. The lampizator. One for believers, I believe

The TDA1541 is a hype. It's certainly not a bad DA, but we've got better these days. It has a bug, for instance. And that bug is showing in the Sound Devices USB Pre. It produces a tick once every ten minutes or so. Hardly noticeable, unless you're listening carefully. And that same tick is in a lot of CD players. Not in the ones from Philips, as they used the workaround. But some manufacturers were too lazy, or too much of a cheapskate to add the few components to avoid it. Like Sound Devices...

Quote:
I have another computer, the one I am writing this on - with a headphone amp when I turn that off - sometimes mouse freezes. So induced currents like that - not good for usb anywhere. So curcial how cables are drawn.
That computer probably has very thin traces on the PCB for USB. And a mediocre PSU...

Quote:
USB - I'd use it for anything but daw audio.
Why? It's the same as any other connection, provided the rest is up to spec. People were having issues with Firewire in the past. And they are having issues with Thunderbolt. Doesn't mean these are worthless.

Any system has to be set up right. Use decent cables. Not too long. Don't work near an arc welder, or on an electrical system with a dodgy ground. The last one might be bad for your health too.

And you might wonder why there are hardly any USB3 audio interfaces. USB3 uses the same frequency band as Wifi. Lots of possibilities for interference. And the manufacturers could see the support problems coming with mediocre computers, so they decided not to do USB3, but invest in Dante, or Thunderbolt.

Quote:
So RME PCIe stuff - that is the way to go on desktop computers, I think - as many already said.
PCI can be a pita too. I sometimes need RAID cards, for data recoup. And these are finicky too. Not because of PCI an sich, but because the latest generation mobo's doesn't implement PCI very well. Bridges and so. You can't risk losing a disk because of degraded performance. And that's because lots of people never use PCI, so the industry can get away with it.

I still own a number of USB 1.1 interfaces. And these still work fine, within the limits of USB 1.1. 8 channels at 48 kHz, 24 bit, or 4@96. No jitter problems, despite these things being 20 years old. Of course, these were made by eMagic, not by Creative.

Did you know, for instance, that quartz crystals, used for the clock, get more stable by aging? For some applications (not audio interfaces) only old crystals are used. Companies specialising in this area stock these for up to 5 years. And some crystals are pre-aged by heating them in an oven.
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