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Old 02-10-2018, 10:16 AM   #1
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Default v5.71rc1 - February 10 2018

+ Audio Units: use variable I/O for plug-ins which do not support kAudioUnitProperty_SupportedNumChannels
+ Automation items: don't automatically extend automation items that match the time selection (to enable time selection autopunch behavior) [p=1936848]
+ Automation items: fix automation items being left behind when key modifiers change during media item edit [t=200768]
+ Batch converter: avoid glitches at end of conversion for items with Take FX
+ Batch converter: fix incorrect samplerate used when processing item with take FX
+ Control surfaces: do not auto-close http/OSC control surfaces
+ Envelopes: when using "preserve edge points" mouse modifer, prevent unnecessary left edge point if previous point shape is square
+ Extensions: do not load project template after successfully importing a project via extension [t=202610]
+ FX: ensure no feedback loop created when building multichannel routing on a folder [t=201177]
+ FX: fix channel behavior when loading FX chain via SWS resources [p=1951546]
+ FX: fix looping PDC automation issues near loop point [t=200899]
+ FX: fix wet/dry automation issue with PDC [t=201087]
+ Grid: add option to divide arrange view vertically every N measures
+ Grid: display arrange view grid lines and ruler markings more consistently
+ Groups: allow theming of colors for groups 33-64
+ JSFX: super8 edge trimming improvements
+ MIDI editor: fix CC lane drawing issues with looped items
+ MIDI: add preference to display multiple CC lanes in the arrange view, and/or combine all CC data into a single lane
+ MIDI: improve item peaks display
+ MIDI: improve pixel accuracy for MIDI peaks in the arrange view [t=201105]
+ MIDI: treat type 0 files with meta-events as multichannel files on import; if configured, prompt to import meta-events and channel MIDI as separate tracks [t=201510]
+ Mouse modifiers: add modifier to add a range of media items or MIDI notes to selection, and set time selection to selected items or notes
+ Mouse modifiers: add modifier to toggle MIDI note selection and set time selection to selected notes
+ Mouse modifiers: add modifier to toggle media item selection and set time selection to selected items
+ MusicXML: fix manual quantizing after import [t=202244]
+ OSC: allow setting /track/monitor mode directly (rather than just cycling) [p=1914163]
+ ReaControlMIDI: support sample-accurate automation playback
+ ReaScript: TrackFX_GetNamedConfigParm() can query pdc, input/output pin names
+ ReaScript: allow very small sizes for custom UIs
+ ReaScript: fix incorrect samplerate used when processing take FX via audio accessors
+ Recording: latency-compensate input-FX delay [t=200916]
+ Regions: copy regions without splitting the original media items [p=1902899]
+ Regions: fix some envelope issues that arise when copying/moving regions [p=1947748]
+ Ruler: draw ticks more consistently with linear tempo changes [1924259]
+ Ruler: optionally divide arrange view vertically by measures
+ Ruler: optionally highlight ruler markings in the arrange view
+ Solo: improve behavior with routing and folders [t=199396]
+ Subprojects: add action to save project and render RPP-PROX for non-subprojects
+ Subprojects: add option to prevent automatic subproject rendering
+ Subprojects: add option to prompt on background subproject rendering
+ Subprojects: move track to subproject copies markers/regions
+ Subprojects: move tracks/items to subproject copies grid/framerate settings
+ Take FX: fix issues rendering take FX as new take [p=1937158]
+ Take pan: produce stereo output when rendering mono items with pan/pan envelopes
+ Tempo envelope: add action to insert tempo marker at cursor, without opening the tempo edit dialog
+ Undo: avoid over-compaction of undo history [p=1936784]
+ VST3: do not update preset list in response to parameter names changing [p=1924970]
+ VST3: inform plugins of multichannel context even if the plugin does not adjust its I/O configuration in response
+ VST3: prevent multichannel plugins from running in mono on stereo tracks [p=1945285]
+ VST: avoid incorrect offline-processing notifications on plug-in load
+ VST: improve multichannel detection for some VST2 plug-ins (e.g. FabFilter)
+ VST: list newly scanned plugins in the "new" category for 24 hours
+ Windows: fix topmost pin state remembering when using non-latin pathnames [p=1926485]
+ Windows: show top-level expand/collapse button in Add FX dialog
+ macOS: preserve track I/O window position when auto-resizing
# Arrange view: fix red/blue theme color channel swap in vertical shading mode [p=1939856]
# Envelopes: consider envelope points at the right edge of a project region to be within the region [p=1937919]
# FX: fix PDC automation precision near loop point with 1-block latency
# FX: list newly scanned plugins in FX quick-add menu
# Grid: color arrange view gridlines for custom-colored project markers and regions [p=1932926]
# Grid: dynamic grid shading follows beat-based ruler markings even below one measure [p=1935890]
# Grid: fix disappearing gridlines/hang bug [p=1933010]
# Grid: fix track divider lines in certain themes [p=1938081]
# Grid: move/reword option to use odd/even track colors to divide arrange view by measures
# Grid: support dividing vertically when using frame grid
# Grid: when dividing vertically by measures and the ruler is in measures.beats, generally follow ruler markings
# Grid: when dividing vertically by measures, respect custom project measure start
# Install: avoid updating modified timestamp on non-changed InstallData files (such as JSFX)
# JS: categorize JS edited within the last 24 hours as new
# Linux: VST3 IRunLoop support
# MIDI peaks: do not chase PC/SYX
# MIDI peaks: do not chase velocities, use max(vel1,vel2) rather than vel1|vel2
# MIDI peaks: draw PC/SYX even when no CC lanes visible
# MIDI peaks: fix chased CC peak display
# MIDI peaks: initialize centered lanes properly
# MIDI: always draw at least one lane of CC data in arrange view
# MIDI: display either 14-bit or associated MSB lane in arrange view, not both
# MIDI: don't display combined CC lane in arrange view if the media item contains zero or one distinct type of CC data
# MIDI: ensure both peaks and peaks edges colors (if enabled) are used for all MIDI notes [p=1939526]
# MIDI: fix crash when splitting MIDI item with inline editor open [p=1937408]
# MIDI: fix peaks drawing when theme supports different colored edges on peaks [p=1937141]
# MIDI: fix peaks view when automatic scaling is disabled [p=1934859]
# MIDI: minor tweaks when drawing peaks edges [p=1938984]
# MIDI: remove option to scale MIDI peaks to fit (peaks are always scaled now)
# MIDI: smoother combined CC data lane in peaks drawing
# ReaControlMIDI: fix MIDI learn [p=1938515]
# Regions: fix crash when copying regions with overlapping media items [p=1937388]
# Regions: include envelope points very close to start of region when copying region [p=1950427]
# Regions: prevent extra points when moving or copying project regions [p=1948787]
# Ruler: EvilDragon appeasement [p=1933948]
# Ruler: avoid drawing highlights over media items when time selection is active [p=1932347]
# Ruler: fix lag in loop point drawing [p=1936526]
# Ruler: fix tickmarks in time-based display modes [p=1932941]
# Ruler: recalculate grid immediately when changing grid settings [p=1932912]
# Ruler: the full Chamberlain [p=1935874]
# VST3: minor change to how plugins are notified of multichannel track counts
# VST: use file creation time rather than last modified time to determine whether to categorize plugin as new
# Video: add undocumented refresh_ms= ini file tweak
# linux: fix JACK initialization race condition
# linux: trash support for directory cleanup
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:01 AM   #2
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RC1, and the eventual release version, does not include the many of the prerelease changes that were related to VST plugin threading. Those changes will be reintroduced for more testing in the next prerelease build after 5.71 is officially released.

Not included in RC1:

+ VST: send plugin reset messages on the main thread whenever possible
+ VSTi: prevent hanging notes when resetting plug-ins on loop [p=1932726]
- ReaPlugs: fix reset on playback start
- VST3: handle VST3 offline processing state changes from main thread
- FX: fix rendering-related hang [p=1933560]
- FX: avoid possible deadlock on preset load
- VST: fix sample rate/buffer size error on render
- FX: fix take FX [p=1934499]
- Sends: fix channel count increasing on sending track instead of receiving track [p=1935792]
- VST: fix VST3 output issues [p=1937585]
+ VST3: add compatibility setting to flush buffers with hard vs soft reset [p=1946500]
- VST: enable soft reset option for vst2 as well as vst3
- FX: simplify I/O initialization of media item FX on multichannel tracks [p=1945506]
- VST: fix setting hard reset compatibility option from Add FX context menu [p=1946919]
- VST: respect compatibility setting to (not) inform plug-ins of track channel count change [p=1950292]
- VST3: inform plugin of track channel count only when it changes [p=1950595]
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
+ ReaScript: allow very small sizes for custom UIs
Thanks Justin! Looks way better:

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Old 02-10-2018, 11:27 AM   #4
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Also not included in RC1 are the live FX multiprocessing improvements re: sends, and PDC and folders
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Also not included in RC1 are the live FX multiprocessing improvements re: sends, and PDC and folders
Hi Justin, talking about multithreading.

Recently got a I9 which has total of 20 cores (inc hyper cores) but reaper only detects 16.

Do I simply need to untick the box and set it to 20? Thanks.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:56 PM   #6
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You could try, but have a read through this article, which might be related:

https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/e...ore-CPU-setups

From what I understand, there's no way around this issue until the limit for MMCSS threads per process is raised.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:37 PM   #7
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But actually the limit in Windows 10 is 14 logical cores. So, I wonder, why 16 have been detected. AFAIK there are no plans to support more than 14 logical cores in Windows 10. If we want to use all cores, we either have to go for Windows 8 or Windows 10 for Workstations.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:44 PM   #8
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That all's gonna change when 16, 24 and 32 core CPUs become the norm for everyone. With AMD being agressive with pricing, MS will eventually have to react and bump up the limit
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:45 PM   #9
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I really hope so! I'm still on Windows 8.1 exactly for that reason.
Come on Microsoft!
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
Hi Justin, talking about multithreading.

Recently got a I9 which has total of 20 cores (inc hyper cores) but reaper only detects 16.

Do I simply need to untick the box and set it to 20? Thanks.
You can, if you want, though not sure if I'd bother.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I really hope so! I'm still on Windows 8.1 exactly for that reason.
Come on Microsoft!
Also, did MS anywhere state formally that W10FW supports more than 14 logical cores? They said there's support for Xeon and Opteron and having more than 2 physical CPUs (up to 4), but that doesn't exactly say how many cores are supported. It also doesn't say anything about MMCSS threading limitations...
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:36 PM   #12
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This will be a great update!

A few issues that were mentioned previously:

Quote:
+ Ruler: control+alt+drag on tempo markers adjusts tempo on both sides of marker
In the "Project tempo/time signature marker" context, Ctrl+Alt+Leftclick appears to be hardcoded to delete the marker. I think this may be a bit dangerous since, by default, Ctrl-Alt-Leftdrag is now assigned to the "Move tempo marker, adjusting previous and current" function. Alt-Leftclick is sufficient (and more consistent) for deleting markers.


Quote:
+ MIDI: treat type 0 files with meta-events as multichannel files on import; if configured, prompt to import meta-events and channel MIDI as separate tracks[p=1935792
Notation events for specific notes carry channel information, and I think they should be assigned to the same track as their notes (when exploding channels into separate tracks), otherwise the notes lose their notation.


Quote:
# MIDI: smoother combined CC data lane in peaks drawing / #MIDI peaks: fix chased CC peak display
The CC shadows in MIDI items are very prominent and opaque (particularly compared to CC shadows in the MIDI editor), almost giving the impression of a separate take or item, rather than something shadowy *inside* the take. I suggest that CC shadows can be drawn more faintly.


Quote:
+ Ruler:
At present, the tempo/timesig lane is narrower than the marker and region lanes. This is understandable, since the marker and region lanes have to fit icons that are larger than plain text. However, it does look a bit oddly unsymmetrical. I suggest that:
* When the user widens the ruler by dragging down the bottom, only the tempo/timesig lane should expand at first, until it is exactly as wide as the other lanes. Thereafter, all lanes can expand together.
* As soon as the ruler is wide enough that an extra lane can fit (and one or more of the "Show regions/markers/tempos in lanes" options are enabled) the tempo/timesig lane can snap back to its minimal height.
* Repeat previous steps until all three lanes are doubled to show regions, markers and tempos/timesigs in equally sized lanes.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
But actually the limit in Windows 10 is 14 logical cores. So, I wonder, why 16 have been detected. AFAIK there are no plans to support more than 14 logical cores in Windows 10. If we want to use all cores, we either have to go for Windows 8 or Windows 10 for Workstations.
What on earth do you mean? I have never heard about this. And further more, my Win10 Pro sees all my 16 logical cores perfectly fine.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:23 PM   #14
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It's not about whether Windows see cores or not, it's how many threads are available to MMCSS - which is what gives you your low latency audio.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
You can, if you want, though not sure if I'd bother.
crap so I've only just found out about this..

So are you saying that if I have 10 actual cores (and 10 hyperthread thingys) then I can't use all of them because of a windows issue?

Can I just double check then what the maximum is and what number is best to set it to in reaper for now then?

16?

I'm confused now. How many of the 20 "logical processors" on my 10 core machine should i use in reaper to keep low latency working well.

Also, are we talking just for the "live multiprocessing" box or for the "audio reading/processing threads" box as well?


Super confused now!
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It's not about whether Windows see cores or not, it's how many threads are available to MMCSS - which is what gives you your low latency audio.
So have to wait for microsoft to "see the light" and update this then or can I to the server version mentioned?

It seems a shame to waste 2/4 cores?
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:41 PM   #17
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Well, you can try it and see what happens. This all just means that if your process using MMCSS (Reaper does) goes above 14 utilized cores, threads overflowing that number are shifting to non-realtime and are much slower to execute... With Reaper's anticipative processing this might not mean much in the long run, but it might make sense to hear Justin's thoughts about it, he should know more. I just know about the issue from Steinberg's knowledgebase article...

(BTW this is only a W10 issue, doesn't happen on W7/8).
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:43 PM   #18
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For purposes of high core counts, lack of MMCSS for worker and anticipative fx processing isn’t a big deal...
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Well, you can try it and see what happens. This all just means that if your process using MMCSS (Reaper does) goes above 14 utilized cores, threads overflowing that number are shifting to non-realtime and are much slower to execute...
Thanks.

I'm going to read up on it properly in a sec but my 2 questions are:

1: when you say "14 cores" are we talking real cores or logical processors? I've got 10 real but 20 overall

2: There are two settings in the buffering options. One at the top for "audio reading threads" and the bottom one for "allow live FX multiprocessing on:" What should I have those 2 boxes set to with a 10 core I9?
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:47 PM   #20
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"Logical cores" are the number of physical cores times the number of threads that can run on each core through the use of hyperthreading. for example, my 4-core processor runs two threads per core, so I have 8 logical processors.

(Literally googled "logical core" )

Issue starts showing at 14 logical cores, so if you have more than 7 hyperthreaded cores, you're in for a W10 treat.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
For purposes of high core counts, lack of MMCSS for worker and anticipative fx processing isn’t a big deal...
cool. So maybe set the top (anticipative) setting to 20 and the bottom (Live fx) to much lower like 8?

Is there an advantage to trying to split them at all so say 16 for anticipative and 4 for live FX?

sorry.. "kinda" new to me this stuff as been on 4 core for a very long time till now
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:48 PM   #22
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Video: add undocumented refresh_ms= ini file tweak
What is this ?
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
For purposes of high core counts, lack of MMCSS for worker and anticipative fx processing isn’t a big deal...
Good to know (also this sounds like a polite way of saying "Cubase has shit code so Steinberg has to have a knowledgebase article about this issue and we don't, haha!" ). I do wonder what happens once you have a ton of tracks in the project, though...
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
What is this ?
Search for svijayrathinam's threads with video issues.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Good to know (also this sounds like a polite way of saying "Cubase has shit code so Steinberg has to have a knowledgebase article about this issue and we don't, haha!" ). I do wonder what happens once you have a ton of tracks in the project, though...
Hope so.. Will try setting 20 for main and say 4 for live but I'm worried that on heavy projects having 20 set for main will "break" the 4 live ones..

Will need to get some of the DAWbench tests on here at some point then and see what it all means and report back.

Thanks for the info guys!
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
2: There are two settings in the buffering options. One at the top for "audio reading threads" and the bottom one for "allow live FX multiprocessing on:" What should I have those 2 boxes set to with a 10 core I9?
I think the live FX one determines how many high priority threads you dedicate to rec armed (live) tracks. So if you don't record with live fx monitoring then leave that off, if you record max one track with live monitoring set it to one, etc.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:05 PM   #27
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For purposes of high core counts, lack of MMCSS for worker and anticipative fx processing isn’t a big deal...
Ok, but "isn't a big deal" is good enough? For us with more than 14 logical cores, should we manually set it to 14 in reaper prefs just to be sure?
Just to clarify, I have not noticed anything weird with my value of 16...
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Ok, but "isn't a big deal" is good enough? For us with more than 14 logical cores, should we manually set it to 14 in reaper prefs just to be sure?
Just to clarify, I have not noticed anything weird with my value of 16...
I'm not totally convinced that MMCSS offers significant advantages, but in any case the benefits of it only really apply to the audio thread + live FX multiprocessing FX. Anticipative FX rendering and media reading/rendering definitely do not require MMCSS (simple raised thread priority is plenty).
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
I think the live FX one determines how many high priority threads you dedicate to rec armed (live) tracks. So if you don't record with live fx monitoring then leave that off, if you record max one track with live monitoring set it to one, etc.
Indeed. If I remember right, it was actual limited so that all the FX on a record enabled track had to be assigned to just one core so I'm guessing the more the better if you record whole bands through live monitoring but..

.. Maximum before it all breaks down is "14" if I understand it correctly..
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:55 PM   #30
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I'm not totally convinced that MMCSS offers significant advantages, but in any case the benefits of it only really apply to the audio thread + live FX multiprocessing FX. Anticipative FX rendering and media reading/rendering definitely do not require MMCSS (simple raised thread priority is plenty).
Thanks Justin.

When my new studio is fully set up I'll do some proper tests and see if I can offer any useful info.

I guess we want to set Live fx to max 14 logical processors right though?

My worry was if having too many anticipative processors active could "break" or lower the thread priority on the cores currently being used for live fx?

That's why I was thinking of trying to "separate" the 20 logical cores to say maybe:

16 Anticipative
4 Live fx

Will see how that works.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:57 PM   #31
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My worry was if having too many anticipative processors active could "break" or lower the thread priority on the cores currently being used for live fx?
Nope, because aFX threads are not created with MMCSS priority, so they don't interfere with RT audio or live FX threads.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:59 PM   #32
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Also: to be clear.

1) Enable MMCSS by setting it in Preferences/Audio Device. If you're using ASIO, there's an option to defer to the driver's choice.

2) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Highest or Time Critical, then MMCSS will be used for any "live FX multiprocessing" threads.

3) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Time Critical, then MMCSS will also be used for anticipative FX/media worker threads. This is not recommended in general!

There is a limit on the number of MMCSS threads (14, was it?), but as long as you don't set the buffering priority to Time Critical, and don't set the Live FX multiprocessing amount above 14, you will be fine. The worker thread count (reading/processing threads) can go higher, though by default it won't go above 16 without manual override.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:35 PM   #33
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Thanks Justin/EvilDragon!

That's great info to know. I'll paste it on my original general question thread about this in case anyone else asks the same thing
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:46 PM   #34
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2) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Highest or Time Critical, then MMCSS will be used for any "live FX multiprocessing" threads.
Detected a bug here (in red), otherwise number 3) doesn't make sense, I think:
2) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Highest or Time Critical, then MMCSS will be used for any "live FX multiprocessing" threads.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:31 AM   #35
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3) does make sense.

Basically if you set to Highest, only live FX threads get MMCSS, but if you set to Time Critical, both live FX threads AND anticipative worker threads get MMCSS.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:53 AM   #36
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3) does make sense.

Basically if you set to Highest, only live FX threads get MMCSS, but if you set to Time Critical, both live FX threads AND anticipative worker threads get MMCSS.
I mean 2) and 3) can't coexist. It's not important. I understand how it works
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:22 AM   #37
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Sure, they can't coexist, perhaps this would be a better wording:

2) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Highest, then MMCSS will be used for any "live FX multiprocessing" threads.

3) If MMCSS is enabled for the audio device and prefs/buffering/Thread Priority is set to Time Critical, then MMCSS will be used for any "live FX multiprocessing" threads and also for anticipative FX/media worker threads. This is not recommended in general!
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:53 AM   #38
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Yeah, my original #2 does not say "only live FX ..." ... but ED's latest wording is clearer.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:04 AM   #39
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Ok so basically, set your thread prioiry in prefs/buffer to Highest, and dont worry about it.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:19 AM   #40
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Ok so basically, set your thread prioiry in prefs/buffer to Highest, and dont worry about it.
...and if you have more than 16 cores/threads, feel free to set the max worker thread higher manually (but don't set the live FX above 14, usually).
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