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Old 03-13-2019, 09:56 AM   #1
toleolu
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Default Should I Replace My Firestudio Mobile Interface?

So I've been running this Presonus FireStudio Mobile for about 8 years or so. Very happy with it, no complaints, other than it's no longer in production and I haven't received any firmware or driver updates for it in years.

But, given how technology tends to improve over the years, I'd like to hear your thoughts/opinions on whether the latest generation interfaces and drivers will give me a noticeable improvement in the tonal quality of analog recordings versus my old Presonus?

Put simply, if I plug my guitar into my Presonus FireStudio, play a tune, then plug the guitar into one of the newer generation interfaces, same tune, same guitar, same settings, would there be any noticeable difference in the sound quality?

Strictly a hobbyist here, don't need a lot of bells and whistles. I did notice that some of the new Presonus interfaces do HD audio now, but as a hobbyist, I'm not sure if that would be something I could take full advantage of.

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Old 03-13-2019, 10:30 AM   #2
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As long as you have no driver problems, I really see no reason to change...

An "upgrade" will be costly and will yield more channels, but the rise in quality will be very minor, I think.

Besides, via the ADAT you can expand and look for a different set of preamps, cheaply to very expensive. I've installed a bunch of these Firestudio's and AFAIK, they're all still running. Can't say that for the MOTU's, as I have a pile of repair of these. They all seem to function, until they don't and drop out in the middle of a long session.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:50 AM   #3
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Besides, via the ADAT you can expand and look for a different set of preamps, cheaply to very expensive. I've installed a bunch of these Firestudio's and AFAIK, they're all still running.
Yep, the Presonus has been rock solid, no complaints there.

I'm afraid the ADAT and pre-amp went a little over my head. Could you provide a little more info on that?

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:48 AM   #4
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I think the firestudio has 4 ADAT ports on the back.

You can connect two ADAT boxes like the Behringer ADA8200 that provides 8 inputs, with mic preamps and 8 line outputs for around 150 €. Or a Presonus ADAT box, or an RME one, or... for a total of 16 extra IO.

That is, if you need more channels.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:16 AM   #5
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At the present time, I don't really need more input channels, but the idea of a pre amp was interesting. Is using a pre amp in front of an audio interface fairly common?
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:31 AM   #6
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It's not really "in front of".

The ADAT expands the number of inputs when you attach an ADAT box. The ADAT box contains preamps (usually), AD (always) and DA (usually). From the box it goes into your interface by a digital optical cable.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:42 AM   #7
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"In front of" is an old IT term we used when talking about devices data passes through.

In this case, the signal starts at my mic, goes to the preamp, then goes to the interface. In that case, the preamp is "in front of" the interface. Old habits die hard.

Terminology aside, is it common to find pre-amps plugged into interfaces? Or is that just another one of those, depends on what you're trying to do, things?
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:10 AM   #8
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Mic preamps built onto interfaces, tend to be clean sounding.

If you prefer coloured sound, you need to connect an external preamp to your interface, preferably via a lin input.

I have no idea if that is common. But I've seen it in a lot of places. One of the studio's I used to work with, has a 108 channel Soundcraft mixer with around 40 different external preamps plugged into it.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:54 AM   #9
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The Presonus Mobile has no ADAT, but it does have an S/PDIF input which you can use to add 2 extra digital inputs. Back in the day I used to use random external effects rack gear (that happened to have S/PDIF outs) in 100% dry mode as cheapo extra ADC channels.

I used the Firebox for years, then the Firestudio Mobile for years. I don't miss the firewire hassles (which only get worse as time goes on), but otherwise I have no complaints. There was a little digital noise when the preamp gains were turned way up. But in normal ranges they were fine.

Agreed that you shouldn't worry about the interface; it won't make a significant difference. If it breaks or you need more inputs or some other feature, that's the time to upgrade/change.
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Old 03-17-2019, 04:36 PM   #10
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Good catch, Clepsy. I missed the "mobile part".
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:34 AM   #11
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Thanks for your time Cyrano and clepsydrea.

I like to drive my stuff til it dies (got 100K miles on the truck and it's still going strong.) I'll keep running the Presonus til it kicks the bucket.

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Old 03-18-2019, 09:45 AM   #12
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Kinda in the same boat, i use a focusrite saffire pro (firewire). And it just continues to run and run has sat in my racking for years now. I've even got a spare that i used to use for live too. I recently bought a Win 10 machine as i used to run on Mac, and was expecting it to not work... But no, installed cheap firewire card and worked straight out the box. It refuses to die, but i wish maybe all the apple users that told me firewire doesn't work on windows very well need their heads seeing too, because the latency is even better in my experience!!

I think it's only the pre-amps on a different interface which would give you any difference in regards to sound.

If you record vocals/acoustic and don't have an issue of noise floor when/if you need to raise the gain, then you're all good. That's the biggest difference between some interfaces that i've experienced in the past, and i'm quite happy with Focusrite for the time being.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toleolu View Post
I like to drive my stuff til it dies (got 100K miles on the truck and it's still going strong.) I'll keep running the Presonus til it kicks the bucket.
For me the issue that kept cropping up with the FSM (two different units; this also happened with the Firebox IIRC) was that the gain pots would start to go bad and there would start to be constant noise on a channel, first noticed by the gain indicator flashing intermittently. I replaced the pots a couple times with some success, but it's not a simple procedure. If that starts to happen to you, I think it'd be wise to move on. Otherwise they are great units for the price, IMO.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:02 AM   #14
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but i wish maybe all the apple users that told me firewire doesn't work on windows very well need their heads seeing too, because the latency is even better in my experience!!
The firewire was never an issue for me, just stuck a firewire card in my PC and done. I built this rig a number of years back, and at the time, firewire was still faster than USB.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:37 AM   #15
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Firewire Latency is still better than USB because of how the architecture works (Less software/driver involvement i believe and more direct access via hardware).

I never understand why Apple users have always preferred FW/Thunderbolt whereas windows users are so USB focused. The latency with REAPER on win 10 is absurd on firewire vs even modern USB interfaces, my saffire is over half less latency vs a focusrite 2i4 mk2. I plugged it, it said 3.9ms and i've just left it as is. anything under 6-8ms and i'm happy.

Not tried anything like an RME which are supposedly very well written drivers, but in regards to running within a sensible budget i'd never swap to USB for audio which is why you're good with what you have.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:47 AM   #16
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Firewire Latency is still better than USB because of how the architecture works (Less software/driver involvement i believe and more direct access via hardware).
Totally agree there. I've often commented on this forum regarding system performance related to bits per second as missing the mark. It's not a matter of how many bits, it's what information those bits contain, and how the hardware controllers process those bits. The focus should be throughput, not bits per second.

Take network data. I might have a network controller that runs at 1 Gb per second, but when you consider that a big chunk of those bits have nothing to do with the actual data, bits per second can be very misleading.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:56 AM   #17
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Not tried anything like an RME which are supposedly very well written drivers, but in regards to running within a sensible budget i'd never swap to USB for audio which is why you're good with what you have.
It's not only the driver...

RME went as far as developing their own USB stack in their FPGA because none of the available chips would do what they wanted. They're still the only brand that can do 54 IO reliably on USB2.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:24 PM   #18
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I was fine with firewire until they stopped putting the ports in computers. You can get cards and such, but you have to worry over chipset compatibility and the like.

I personally don't care about latency 99% of the time, so I just want something I can plug in to any computer/laptop/friend's computer/new whatever and not have to worry about cards/adapters/etc.

I was/am a fan of firewire, but it's too much of a hassle nowadays.

The myriad of USB connector types, on the other hand...
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:29 PM   #19
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I was fine with firewire until they stopped putting the ports in computers. You can get cards and such, but you have to worry over chipset compatibility and the like.
You even have to watch out for compatibility issues with USB these days. There's a chipset that you'll typically find in cheap OEM laptops that's unsuitable for audio if you need to process more than 2 IO with low latency...

Quote:
I personally don't care about latency 99% of the time, so I just want something I can plug in to any computer/laptop/friend's computer/new whatever and not have to worry about cards/adapters/etc.
Same here. Latency really doesn't matter for me as I never have to provide monitoring.

Quote:
I was/am a fan of firewire, but it's too much of a hassle nowadays.
Fan or no fan, FW is gone.

Quote:
The myriad of USB connector types, on the other hand...
Thunderbolt is far, far worse when it comes to compatibility. Apple gave it a "one cable for all connections" reputation. Unfortunately, you can't even see what a typical TB port or cable supports. So you need a myriad of cables and dongles and worse, you need to label them, cause you can't tell from looking at the cable.

At least, USB is just a cable. TB cables have a complete computer inside...
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toleolu View Post
At the present time, I don't really need more input channels, but the idea of a pre amp was interesting. Is using a pre amp in front of an audio interface fairly common?
Speaking of which, using a preamp -with an attitude- or a mike in combination with a guitar amp might be just be your weapons of choice.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:43 PM   #21
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This is kind of broken record territory on the audio-themed internet, but I'll say it anyway: IMO, the hierarchy of where to spend money/time/effort to make our music and/or recordings better goes something like:

1) write/compose/arrange/orchestrate better
2) play it better / play with more accurate time
3) improve or change the instrument(s)/pickups/guitar amps/etc.
4) improve your micing technique
5) treat your room / record somewhere else
6) improve your mixing technique
...
15) get better mics
...
25) get better plugins
...
40) get a better interface
...
65) use a better pre-amp
...
97) use a different DAW (unless workflow is holding you back, in which case obviously this ranks much higher)
...
150) use better ADC/resampling/dithering/sample rate/etc.

In the in-between slots are myriad other pieces of good advice. E.g. #7: do some jumping jacks before you play/record/mix, etc. :-)

No doubt others will take exception to some of this ranking, but I think most would agree with the general idea. I know you were asking a specific question about hardware and not trying to state that you thought the interface was a top priority. I just think it's easy for us (all of us) to lose track of the real proportions involved. I need to constantly remind myself of the above to keep myself on track.

*edit -- use of "colored" pre-amps is not covered by item #65. I don't have enough experience with them to rank them specifically, but no doubt it's much higher.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:23 AM   #22
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Depends how bad your pre-amps/interface is of course. I used to own an M-Audio interface and always struggled to get good vocals through it. Was only when i swapped to Focusrite that i realised how noisy those old pre-amps were AND how tempermental the phantom power was. I was in shock of the difference, and totally ignorant to the fact - at the time i would've recommended the interface to friends for example.

In my mind i always think how great focusrite works for me on a budget because of that vast leap... But man, there may be an equal jump from that to another brand. But i'll stay ignorant on it for the sake of my wallet lol.

Sometimes you can be dragged into changing mics/positions/sound proofing/guitar pickups/cables/interference blockers etc when your ADC/Pre-Amp/Interface is the weak link. That's exactly what happened to me, and i was seeking solutions in the wrong places.

So it's worth reviewing those bits of gear lower down your list so you have an idea of what your limits/expectations are, i think that's all the OP is asking here too, and is smart to be doing so.

Otherwise, yeah you'd hope people would go around things in that order, learning or practising your art as a songwriter should be top of everyones list i think. If you're also the musician then learning how to play and timing is of course next.

But that said, i see a ton of people online making EDM music and all they need is a chord helper (Like scaler), an arp, some reasonable synth plugins (Serum etc), modest sample library (808/909/Vocal hook library), laptop and headphones and they can bang out generic trap style beats for their mates ad infinitum. You've only got to look on twitch music section to see the sheer amount of people doing that, and to my ears it sounds great even vs commercial equivalents... But that genre ain't for me, sick of it lol!

Last edited by Skijumptoes; 03-19-2019 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:13 AM   #23
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Many thanks to all.

I was what you might call an audiophile back in the days of vinyl and tape. Had the top of the line receivers, amps, turntables, speakers, reel to reel, all that jazz.

Switching to digital audio, I could tell a bit of difference in the overall depth or feel of the music. I was curious to see if advancements in A/D converter technology had done anything to improve on that.

Thanks again for all the great comments.

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Old 03-24-2019, 10:53 AM   #24
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If you're recording guitar direct instead of using a mic on a guitar amp, it's "putting the cart before the horse" to consider changing your interface to get a better guitar sound. I'd recommend using a guitar amp that you like, and a mic that you like. For what you're asking specifically, that's the best place to start.

If you want playback which sounds better to you (to match what you had for "audiophile" analog gear), then maybe a different interface is something to consider. However it's probably better to consider your monitors (speakers, and amp for the speakers) as possibly being replaced, before you consider replacing the interface.

So I'm in agreement with clepsydrae, but I wanted to be more specific to your guitar sound concerns.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:34 AM   #25
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I think the first thing to consider, even before new monitors, is room treatment...
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:44 AM   #26
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Thanks, I do mic my acoustic guitar, and I run my electric guitars through my tube amp. Playback wise I've got a pretty decent set of Presonus monitor speakers, and on my computer, I'm running a Sound Blaster card into a Logitech surround sound speaker system, so I think I'm pretty good there.

I'm very happy with what I'm getting now, but like most people, I'm always looking for better. I was just curious to see if the analog to digital conversion technology used today had improved over what I have in my old Firestudio. It would appear the answer is not really, so that's great, I can spend my money on something else!

Thanks again to all.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:45 PM   #27
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Nowadays you can get a sound card that costs ~$100 that sounds great, such as the one I use: Asus Xonar DX. It's very clean/clear, and very low noise/distortion. Things have come a long way since the 80s. Your interface is good by most people's standards. If you think the sound isn't quite as good as your old HiFi setup, chances are it's something else about the setup which is lacking.

I guess, depending on what you mean by Sound Blaster and Logitech speakers, you may want to start there. And whatever Presonus monitors you have, maybe they're not as "good" as your old HiFi setup's speakers. I mean, everything's subjective, but you may miss something about your old setup. I just doubt the fact it was analog was the deciding factor, or that you need to be concerned about your interface.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:02 AM   #28
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Once again, I don't think I'm doing a very good job of making my point. Let's try this:

You connect an instrument to an analog recording device, let's say a mag tape device of some type, and record a song. Then you connect that same instrument to a digital recording device of some type, record the same song then render to a file of some type.

You then play both the analog recording and the digital recording through the same audio gear, I would suspect you would notice a difference, that difference being due to what actually happens to the analog signal when it's digitized, or am I wrong?
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:23 AM   #29
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I understood your point at the start, not sure what some of the replies relate to here lol.

And yes, your right but things have moved on so much that even budget A-D converters are great. I don't know for sure, but i imagine most manufacturers use a standard chip (DAC) nowadays, or the sub components are doing a similar job.

The point most people are making is that the difference you may hear/get between A-D's is so insignificant compared to other elements outside of the interface, i believe.

The only differences i've ever noticed (As above) is with the pre-amps which are built in to the interfaces can be cleaner and some interfaces can be more prone to interference than others.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:25 PM   #30
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Once again, I don't think I'm doing a very good job of making my point. Let's try this:

You connect an instrument to an analog recording device, let's say a mag tape device of some type, and record a song. Then you connect that same instrument to a digital recording device of some type, record the same song then render to a file of some type.

You then play both the analog recording and the digital recording through the same audio gear, I would suspect you would notice a difference, that difference being due to what actually happens to the analog signal when it's digitized, or am I wrong?
The difference would be (if all else is equal, including the mic preamp): how the analog device distorts the sound including noise and limiting the frequency bandwidth (which recording to tape does), compared to how the digital audio interface handles the audio up until the point of conversion to digital (whatever noise, distortion and bandwidth limitation it has). Every analog device has the potential to increase noise, add distortion and limit bandwidth; that includes the devices in your interface. The conversion to digital itself however is not a problem.

See this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

So "digitizing" the audio isn't a problem. It's more about how your digital audio interface handles the sound until the point of conversion to digital during recording (and how well it handles the sound as it's being converted again from digital to analog, when playing back). Unless you're using a really low quality audio interface, you're fine. And your interface is fine. Lots of inexpensive audio interfaces these days are quite good.

Do you prefer the sound of recording to tape though? That's for you to answer. If so, would you be as happy using plugins to simulate the noise, distortion and frequency limiting of tape? You have options, and a lot of free ones too (some of the Airwindows plugins for instance). You can try and find out for yourself.

If your hypothetical question was about using a cassette-based multitrack recorder versus your computer's digital audio (and your particular interface)...well...cassette-based multitrackers weren't very good. So I guess if you have a very specific taste for how poorly they recorded--tape saturation/distortion to the point where it really limits what you're capable of doing if you're not careful--you might want to compensate for that a lot by using plugins. But if you're comparing what was considered a good tape recording device (the devices studios used), switching to digital and using plugins to emulate tape (when desired) is fine at least in my opinion. I don't miss tape.

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