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Old 07-28-2012, 09:51 AM   #1
chap
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Default Ninjam/Reaper Is Working - But I'm Not Quite There In My Head

I've set up my own Ninjam server. My musical partner and myself are connecting via reaper and the ninjam client/plugin in all it's glory is working properly. Loud and clear. We sound like we're sitting in the same room together. Very cool.

What we can't seem to get our heads around is actually playing together. I don't think we quite understand the "interval" and how we should play/work with it. I have set the server to 16 bpi and bpm @ 120.

I'll try to phrase my question correctly .....

If I start playing @ the 1 count of the interval, my partner waits until that interval is back to 1 and starts playing. From his side, everything is in time and sounds great ....but from my side I am indeed hearing him lag.
Likewise, if he starts, I can play in time and sounds perfect but he hears the lag of me behind him. Apparently we haven't figured out yet how both sides get in time with the server ... if I said that correctly.

What are we doing wrong? Or are we just not understanding how the whole interval thing is working? Is there a way to know or see that the server is putting the two signals together correctly?

Appreciate your thoughts, advice and expertise.

Thanks,

Chap

Last edited by chap; 07-28-2012 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:40 PM   #2
pljones
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First, make sure your local signal paths are correct. Neither of you should hear anything other than NINJAM output:
audio source -> NINJAM -> audio output
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=45

That means acoustic instruments are a pain: you need very good headphones so you can only hear the NINJAM sound. Everything else should be DI'd not mic'd.

With that set up, you should be able to tell if you've got local lag: that is, you have latency in your local audio set up. If you've got local latency, this will translate into you being "off click" to anyone listening over NINJAM. This is most commonly caused by (a) not using ASIO drivers or (b) too large a buffer size.
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Old 07-29-2012, 08:46 AM   #3
chap
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Hi PL,

Thank you. The illustration helps. I'm trying to picture how my signal chain is routed. And yes we are acoustic. However, we both run our guitars through preamps into physical mixers and to the sound card. Although, I have other hardware hanging off my mixer such as a compressor, eq and reverb units.

I believe I mistakenly used the word "lag". I should have said my partner appears to be 1 interval behind.

Perhaps I should ask a different question as my partner and I are new to using NinJam.

What should each of us expect to hear?

If our bpi/bpm (interval) is set the same on both sides for the chord progression and I start on the 1 beat(bpi) and my partner comes in on the second 1 beat, we should then be fairly well in time with each other. As long as the chord progression stays the same we're good. But, if the song during the third interval calls for chord changes, will I hear my parter still on the original chord progression while I do the third interval?

OK....lets say...bpi=32 / bpm=130

1st Player .........................2nd Player
Int 1 = G/C/D.......................NO.........
Int 2 = G/C/D.......................Int 1 = G/C/D
Int 3 = Am/C/G......................Int 2 = G/C/D
Int 4 = C/D/G.......................Int 3 = Am/C/G
Int 5 = G/C/D.......................Int 4 = C/D/G
Int 6 = G/C/D.......................Int 5 = G/C/D


My partner is 1 interval behind. Should I expect my partner to be where I am in the progression or am I just not getting the big picture?

Hmm ... or perhaps, my partner would skip, Int 2 and go to Int 3 instead?

In any case, I'm sure we'll get it figured out. It might take us a few questions on the forums here, so I hope you all don't mind.

Can the BPI be set to an odd number or does the BPI need to be a multiple of 4?
How is 3/4 time handled?
Does the BMP affect the BPI?
What about vocals/harmonies? Is that a whole other range of issue?

Thanks again!

Chap .....

Last edited by chap; 07-29-2012 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:39 PM   #4
pljones
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The interval is crucial. The only guarantee is that each player will sync to the start of an interval in respect to the sound they hear. There is no guarantee that what you play will be heard exactly one interval later but it will be an exact integer number of intervals, starting from one. Different people in the channel may have to wait differing amounts of time. (Usual is one, rarely two it's been said, I've not heard of more.)

The interval is crucial. You need to set the interval to the correct length for the song. For example, 12-bar blues is 12x4=48 beats, so the interval needs to be set to 48. Setting it 16, for example, will mean clashing chords at some point. No changing the form on the fly, either...

The interval is crucial. To get any time signature, you simply multiply the number of beats per bar by the appropriate number of beats (i.e. phrase/verse/etc size). For example, if you have a 3/4 tune with a chord cycle that repeats every 16 bars, you have 16x3=48 beats (again - but for a different reason than before, of course). A 5/8 tune with a two-bar cycle would be 2x5=10 beats.

There are minima and maxima to both BPI and BPM but within that, no requirements for anything else. So you can go mad if you like and have 27BPI at 219BPM.

Vocals, harmonies, etc fit in with the above, just like any other participant. As I noted in another post, you're creating something new that encompasses the interval. Trying to "play tunes" isn't really the essence of NINJAM and leaves it sounding a bit stale. You have to get to grips with it then start taking risks - and listen to hear what others are doing, understand where the whole piece is going and both support it and help it grow.

The interval can be completely ignored if you're working on something organic that has no form at all. As a drummer, this can be fun because chords aren't such a problem and you're working more with the rise and fall of emotion of a piece than pure rhythm. You also have no idea at all, other than gut feel, how it's going to turn out, for added excitement!
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Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.

Last edited by pljones; 07-29-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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