Reaper Automation timing

[David Carlyon]

Hey everyone, just a couple of question sregarding automation timing.
I have seen so many complaints from other DAWs about automation timing being off when either the plugin being automated has latency, or the plugins before or after in the chain have latency.

Does anyone have any knowledge on how reaper does in this department?

The other question i have - are there any people here who came from pro tools and have extensive knowledge of the differences in automation systems?
Pro tools has some really excellent advanced automation features, i am just wondering if there is anything that Reaper CAN'T do that Pro tools can, when it comes to automation.

Thanks for reading.
David

[airon]

Two little bits Reaper cannot do.

Bypass Latch Preview, although it might hang on to the latched parameters if you jump to Read then back to Latch Preview. Still, that's a hidden feature if it still exists. Being hidden means there's a likelyhood it'll disappear at any time.

Saving latched parameter/value data in a snapshot for later recall.

There is also an incredibly silly restriction, though it is a rather minor one. Say you have the send volume latched in Latch mode and you switch to Latch Preview, that send volume latch is cleared, but plugin parameters if they were latched are preserved. Thanks a lot I say.

But yeah, that's pretty much the overall picture. Protools has lots of console features you won't find in Reaper either but the basics are all there, including Latch Preview(equal to Preview in PT), write back to punch in and even some stuff Protools doesn't have.

A really big plus is you can trigger those functions with almost anything. I could put the automation modes on the trigger buttons of an XBox controller if I wanted to.

[nofish]

I've posted about automation timing here. (someone correct me if I missed something..)

[David Carlyon]

Thanks so much for the speedy replies, i really appreciate it. Yes pro tools does have all the awesome console automation. Latch preview is great, though i was not aware it did that with sends!

Pro tools is lacking in so so so many areas, but the automation features are pretty amazing. I have a slate Raven and i am having one last go at using it with a compatible DAW. I am on the verge of just going 100% Reaper, but the automation modes in Pro tools have kept me from jjumping just yet.

Thanks for the info on timing, will read now

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by nofish

I've posted about automation timing here. (someone correct me if I missed something..)

That is an interesting thread. So overall, it is not recommended to do fast automation at all really? Use synth modulators where possible?
I wonder how the modulators in Melda MXXX frae in this regard.

that is a shame though because automation items are great for doing quicker stuff, from a practicality standpoint.
Looks like i am going to have to start setting my buffer quicker too!

[airon]

If you're recording fader runs, lower the anticipative rendering buffer to something like 50 ms or less to get a decent live feel.

I keep mine at 25 ms because I do a LOT of volume fader runs.

What type of mixing do you do ?

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by airon

If you're recording fader runs, lower the anticipative rendering buffer to something like 50 ms or less to get a decent live feel.

I keep mine at 25 ms because I do a LOT of volume fader runs.

What type of mixing do you do ?

Yes thats definitely a good idea. I work on a range of stuff from electronic dance/pop to guitar driven bluesy rock n roll.
I do have a faderport (and a slate raven which is redundant in the case of reaper, unfortunately)
so i do like to do fader runs, but i also really like getting a mix up and going through section by section with a latch-preview type workflow and then going in and getting my hands dirty with the automation. I love using automation items and go into a lot of depth trying to fit a mix together.


If i am working on my own stuff, i will have all the synths running too, so that can be quite a challenge from a 'daw settings' point of view.
I will get all my parts written, then go through and automate all my synths, create the arrangement. build up the sounds with compression, eq and effects as i go.
Then before mixing i will render all tracks (so i don't have to run all the synths with my heavy mix plugins on top)
Then i start my mix.


What i am trying to be mindful of is loading a bunch of plugs that introduce loads of latency, then getting automation that is not in time

[Judders]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

What i am trying to be mindful of is loading a bunch of plugs that introduce loads of latency, then getting automation that is not in time

If sample accuracy is critical, then you can automate the JS plugin Volume/Pan smoother plugin, which is sample accurate AFAIK.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by Judders

If sample accuracy is critical, then you can automate the JS plugin Volume/Pan smoother plugin, which is sample accurate AFAIK.

Thats great. Do you know if having plugins with latency either side make a difference?

[Judders]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

Thats great. Do you know if having plugins with latency either side make a difference?

I don't think so, but don't quote me on that!

I've never noticed automation latency... my hand can't move the fader fast enough!

[airon]

I haven't noticed anything fishy.

Be sure to set the automation preferences to your liking. I go through this in the video linked in my signature in case you'd like a play by play description.

If you like it all airtight, bring down the Action transition time to 0 ms.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by airon

I haven't noticed anything fishy.

Be sure to set the automation preferences to your liking. I go through this in the video linked in my signature in case you'd like a play by play description.

If you like it all airtight, bring down the Action transition time to 0 ms.

I thought the action transition time was for stuff like snapshots? As in transition time between doing an action and settings changing?

Yes my hands aren't that fast either, but when drawing in quicker changes...or even instantaneous changes.
I.e change eq band frequency and gain on start of chorus - if you have it set to change right on the beat...in some DAWs with certain latency inducing plugins, this can cause timing issues.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

I.e change eq band frequency and gain on start of chorus - if you have it set to change right on the beat...in some DAWs with certain latency inducing plugins, this can cause timing issues.

Just different ways of working. I certainly wouldn't question your need for bang-on automation.

If I'm changing the sound of something throughout a project, such as moving a high pass filter or anything that isn't gain and pan, I will tend to split items and apply item fx rather than automate plugins. Not as CPU efficient as automatic plugins on the track, but it's not something I do a lot of.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by Judders

If sample accuracy is critical, then you can automate the JS plugin Volume/Pan smoother plugin, which is sample accurate AFAIK.

It’s definitely not. Automation is always stair-stepped at sample blocks (per your interface settings). That plugin just interpolates between the last value and the new value for each sample in the block. It’s linear interpretation, not even close to sample-accurate.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

It’s definitely not. Automation is always stair-stepped at sample blocks (per your interface settings). That plugin just interpolates between the last value and the new value for each sample in the block. It’s linear interpretation, not even close to sample-accurate.

Someone must be giving out bum information on this forum then! I don't remember who posted that, pretty sure it's more than one person.

So which JS fx do have sample accurate automation then? Because according to Cockos it does exist:

Originally Posted by Cockos

JSFX scriptable audio/MIDI plugins
64-bit audio processing, sample-accurate MIDI processing, sample-accurate automation.

https://www.reaper.fm/about.php

[nofish]

I'm confused now too because the filename of the Volume/Pan smoother v5 JSFX is volume_pan_sample_accurate_auto which kinda err..suggests sample accurate automation.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by Judders

Because according to Cockos it does exist:

Well they say that but unfortunately it doesn’t mean what we think it means. One of the devs explained it to me one time and I didn’t fully understand the whys, but the gist is that plugin parameters only update from automation (and parameter modulation and things like that) on sample blocks.

If you set your buffers to 1 sample, it technically will be sample accurate, but of course no real world drivers will do that. You can do it for offline renders, though.

You can just look at the code of that plugin and see that it looks at the slider value in @block, figures the difference between the current value and the last time, then divides by the number of samples in the block and then uses that to increment the multiplication factor on each sample.

Now, it is possible to code the plugin to change its parameters based on audio or midi on a sample-by-sample basis, but the only JS plugs I know of that do that are a couple I’ve written and the ReaRack stuff (there may be/probably are others, but none that come stock). That would be completely bypassing the automation system though. If you try to generate the audio/midi signals from envelopes or PM, you’re right back where you started.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Well they say that but unfortunately it doesn’t mean what we think it means. One of the devs explained it to me one time and I didn’t fully understand the whys, but the gist is that plugin parameters only update from automation (and parameter modulation and things like that) on sample blocks.

If you set your buffers to 1 sample, it technically will be sample accurate, but of course no real world drivers will do that. You can do it for offline renders, though.

You can just look at the code of that plugin and see that it looks at the slider value in @block, figures the difference between the current value and the last time, then divides by the number of samples in the block and then uses that to increment the multiplication factor on each sample.

Now, it is possible to code the plugin to change its parameters based on audio or midi on a sample-by-sample basis, but the only JS plugs I know of that do that are a couple I’ve written and the ReaRack stuff (there may be/probably are others, but none that come stock). That would be completely bypassing the automation system though. If you try to generate the audio/midi signals from envelopes or PM, you’re right back where you started.

Ah yes this brings up a good point - does this mean that offline bounces will be sample accurate? Or is there a setting i can change to make it so?
That would be fine for me.
Then there is the question of latency.... i know in studio one, when i offline render something that has a bunch of latency inducing plugins, i get a render that is way out of time. Not good.
I just want to find the most accurate way of doing this so i can build it into my workflow. Offline reneder is no problem for me.

I know the melda plugins have interpolation settings so you can set the smoothing that irons out the blocky automation. I will also ask Vojtech what he recommends

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

Or is there a setting i can change to make it so?

There is a setting, but I’m sorry I can’t remember how. I think you have to use a dummy driver and force it to 1 sample block size.

In my experience, Reaper is really good at PDC as long as all your plugins are reporting the right amount of latency.

In the vast majority of cases you don’t need anywhere near sample-by-sample automation unless you’re trying to do audio rate modulation or like build your own compressor and frankly neither of those are really what automation/PM are for.

From what I can tell most of the actual Reaper plugins (ReaEQ et al) are pretty well smoothed so you don’t hear zipper noise or stair stepping, but the included JS mostly aren’t.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

There is a setting, but I’m sorry I can’t remember how. I think you have to use a dummy driver and force it to 1 sample block size.

In my experience, Reaper is really good at PDC as long as all your plugins are reporting the right amount of latency.

In the vast majority of cases you don’t need anywhere near sample-by-sample automation unless you’re trying to do audio rate modulation or like build your own compressor and frankly neither of those are really what automation/PM are for.

From what I can tell most of the actual Reaper plugins (ReaEQ et al) are pretty well smoothed so you don’t hear zipper noise or stair stepping, but the included JS mostly aren’t.

Yes i def see what your saying - 1 sample block could be overkill.I am not doing audio rate stuff, but yes i have been using automation to do loop/cycle based stuff a la LFO type automation andthe like.
Starting to think that using LFOs is a better approach..which is a shame when you have a program like reaper that can not only do LFO shapes, but has automation items that give you excellent control and visual feedback over your changes.

I suppose one of my quests now becomes - which eq has the best smoothing. I have DMG, FF and slate infinity (as well as melda bundle...and as i said, Melda is one of the few companies that actually gives you some control over the smoothing - which is typical of melda brilliance)


Reaper does seem to have rock solid timing overall. As i mentioned, in S1, if i have a bunch of high latency plugs and i do an offline render, the timing is way off. I don't get that in Reaper (or Pro tools or Bitwig for that matter)
Reaper is generally a very solid DAW

[Judders]

Not sure if this is of any help:

There is a video by Rupert Randolph, but the more important bit is the comment by Justin at the bottom of the page: http://admiralbumblebee.com/music/20...in-Reaper.html

There is also a link comparing automation in different DAWs, and REAPER doesn't come off too badly, even though Rupert apparently borked his test with REAPER.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

Yes i def see what your saying - 1 sample block could be overkill.I am not doing audio rate stuff, but yes i have been using automation to do loop/cycle based stuff a la LFO type automation andthe like.
Starting to think that using LFOs is a better approach..which is a shame when you have a program like reaper that can not only do LFO shapes, but has automation items that give you excellent control and visual feedback over your changes.

I suppose one of my quests now becomes - which eq has the best smoothing. I have DMG, FF and slate infinity (as well as melda bundle...and as i said, Melda is one of the few companies that actually gives you some control over the smoothing - which is typical of melda brilliance)


Reaper does seem to have rock solid timing overall. As i mentioned, in S1, if i have a bunch of high latency plugs and i do an offline render, the timing is way off. I don't get that in Reaper (or Pro tools or Bitwig for that matter)
Reaper is generally a very solid DAW

If you are using such a large audio buffer that automation is noticeably out of time, you can set a separate, smaller buffer for offline rendering in preferences. 32 samples should be sufficient for any automation purposes.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by airon

Two little bits Reaper cannot do.

Bypass Latch Preview, although it might hang on to the latched parameters if you jump to Read then back to Latch Preview. Still, that's a hidden feature if it still exists. Being hidden means there's a likelyhood it'll disappear at any time.

Saving latched parameter/value data in a snapshot for later recall.

There is also an incredibly silly restriction, though it is a rather minor one. Say you have the send volume latched in Latch mode and you switch to Latch Preview, that send volume latch is cleared, but plugin parameters if they were latched are preserved. Thanks a lot I say.

But yeah, that's pretty much the overall picture. Protools has lots of console features you won't find in Reaper either but the basics are all there, including Latch Preview(equal to Preview in PT), write back to punch in and even some stuff Protools doesn't have.

A really big plus is you can trigger those functions with almost anything. I could put the automation modes on the trigger buttons of an XBox controller if I wanted to.

I have been thinking about your comment - reaper not having preview bypass...this could potentially be quite a big deal no?

I will say, i really love the way pro tools has all of those options in one easy to use window. I wish reaper had something like that. It makes for a really nice workflow.
pro tools is missing an insane amount of what we might call 'modern' or 'contemporary' features, but the workflow for automation is pretty damn amazing.

I suppose i could make an automation toolbar to try and simulatw this kind of work flow...

[AJYoung]

I'd like to chime in on this thread, as it has affected me in the past. Since VST Plugin automation's "update rate" is tied to the buffer size, it has caused MANY issues for me.

I write mainly electronic music, so I'm often using LFOs or MSEGs within a synth. I often want to automate the speed of those LFOs (for example, going from 1/4 to 1/8 exactly on the bar). The problem is that, because my buffer size is often larger than, say, an eighth of a beat, the LFO will change speed late. So either the timing will now be off, or (if it is time-synced) a cycle of the previous LFO speed will bleed into the new bar.

It's incredibly annoying for sound design. It also took me forever digging through the forums to figure out that was the cause of the issues. It's such a small thing that you wouldn't even think about until it really matters, and if it's documented, I have no idea where.

That's the only thing I miss from FL Studio. It has a separate "Pulses Per Quarter" setting that defines automation update rate, regardless of the buffer size. For now, whenever I render a project, I have to remember to set the buffer size extremely low or have my automation timing be off (and just ignore it while working in Reaper).

[Judders]

Don't forget that there is a separate block size for rendering in Preferences > Audio > Rendering

Are we talking about somewhere in the region of 3000 sample block sizes at 44.1 kHz?

I guess working at 96 kHz helps me out in that regard...

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by AJYoung

I'd like to chime in on this thread, as it has affected me in the past. Since VST Plugin automation's "update rate" is tied to the buffer size, it has caused MANY issues for me.

I write mainly electronic music, so I'm often using LFOs or MSEGs within a synth. I often want to automate the speed of those LFOs (for example, going from 1/4 to 1/8 exactly on the bar). The problem is that, because my buffer size is often larger than, say, an eighth of a beat, the LFO will change speed late. So either the timing will now be off, or (if it is time-synced) a cycle of the previous LFO speed will bleed into the new bar.

It's incredibly annoying for sound design. It also took me forever digging through the forums to figure out that was the cause of the issues. It's such a small thing that you wouldn't even think about until it really matters, and if it's documented, I have no idea where.

That's the only thing I miss from FL Studio. It has a separate "Pulses Per Quarter" setting that defines automation update rate, regardless of the buffer size. For now, whenever I render a project, I have to remember to set the buffer size extremely low or have my automation timing be off (and just ignore it while working in Reaper).

Your problems are precisely the same as mine. I also mix using lots of plugins that have oversmapling, so when automating eqs and compressors i have the same experience. In studio one its even worse..bounces are just straight outta time. In pro tools same thing.
It seems FL is really well equipped in this area. I have never been all that turned on by FL, but this really does make me think about it.
As you say, it is not something one thinks about straight away, but for people like us making primarily electronic music - it is ESSENTIAL.

Now, as was pointed out - there is a setting in preferences. You can set the render buffer separately - this could work for you?

I am now trying to make music and mix with overall lower buffer/anticipative FX settings and i am keeping an eye on it.

Another thing i am doing...
When i have done all my automation for a synth part - take all FX on the track offline, then render into a new take. Then the synth dfoes not have loads of FX with oversampling in the chain. I will rendr them separetly into another take.
Seems to be about the safest way to me.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by Judders

Don't forget that there is a separate block size for rendering in Preferences > Audio > Rendering

Are we talking about somewhere in the region of 3000 sample block sizes at 44.1 kHz?

I guess working at 96 kHz helps me out in that regard...

Yes this is what i found. I have mine set to 32 samples at the mo. I will see how that works out when i render my current track.

[airon]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

I have been thinking about your comment - reaper not having preview bypass...this could potentially be quite a big deal no?

I will say, i really love the way pro tools has all of those options in one easy to use window. I wish reaper had something like that. It makes for a really nice workflow.
pro tools is missing an insane amount of what we might call 'modern' or 'contemporary' features, but the workflow for automation is pretty damn amazing.

I suppose i could make an automation toolbar to try and simulatw this kind of work flow...

I was reviewing old Lua projects and graphics I’d made just for that purpose, but in the end, all you need are decent toolbar images.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by airon

I was reviewing old Lua projects and graphics I’d made just for that purpose, but in the end, all you need are decent toolbar images.

Yeah your probably right. I need to get good at making icons. I should pick up a program to do it.
Whats the name of that non adobe graphics app? Runs on OSX. I found one that looked pretty good but can't remember for the life of me.

I might mock one up with just text for now and see if i can get it to work smoothly.
This is a key workflow for me - it is the main reason i didn't stay in studio one...it has basic automation features.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

Yeah your probably right. I need to get good at making icons. I should pick up a program to do it.
Whats the name of that non adobe graphics app? Runs on OSX. I found one that looked pretty good but can't remember for the life of me.

I might mock one up with just text for now and see if i can get it to work smoothly.
This is a key workflow for me - it is the main reason i didn't stay in studio one...it has basic automation features.

Affinity Designer? That does both vector and bitmap.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by Judders

Affinity Designer? That does both vector and bitmap.

Thats the one!! Cheers. I must grab a copy of that.

[AJYoung]

Originally Posted by Judders

Don't forget that there is a separate block size for rendering in Preferences > Audio > Rendering

Thank you! This is a great help. Will at least help with renders being consistent

Originally Posted by David Carlyon

It seems FL is really well equipped in this area. I have never been all that turned on by FL, but this really does make me think about it.
As you say, it is not something one thinks about straight away, but for people like us making primarily electronic music - it is ESSENTIAL.

The tradeoff for the longest time was that FL's PDC was not great. They fixed it recently for plugins and audio, but automation is not delay-compensated. So ironically, I had the problem in the opposite direction. Automation will come in early, depending on how delay-compensated your plugin chain is. That honestly wasn't as noticeable, though. I would prefer early as opposed to late, as at least the LFO's started on time.

They're actually working on tackling this Automation PDC issue now, but it's still in the development line.

[David Carlyon]

Originally Posted by AJYoung

Thank you! This is a great help. Will at least help with renders being consistent



The tradeoff for the longest time was that FL's PDC was not great. They fixed it recently for plugins and audio, but automation is not delay-compensated. So ironically, I had the problem in the opposite direction. Automation will come in early, depending on how delay-compensated your plugin chain is. That honestly wasn't as noticeable, though. I would prefer early as opposed to late, as at least the LFO's started on time.

They're actually working on tackling this Automation PDC issue now, but it's still in the development line.

O h i see, yeah that is a big issue.
Considering how important automation is in modern production, it is amazing how many companies havent got this right.
I have been tryig to get back into pro tools all week and for the life of me i cannot get round the latency issue.
When rendering, playing back, automating...it is just a nightmare. This is the industry standard, over 20 year old program. How on earth have they not got it right?
I am keeping a real close eye on this from now on, need ot be confident in my automations.