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Old 03-23-2020, 02:41 PM   #1
Ral-Clan
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Default Two steps forward, One step back: Jack & Reaper = CRASH!

Hi,

I've had a lot of help recently in this forum with Linux Reaper.
First, I figured out why my MIDI controller keyboard wasn't registering as an input in Reaper. Turns out there is a bug in Reaper so when ALSA is used as the audio driver, the MIDI input on the M-Audio delta cards is buggy (almost doesn't work except for the random note).

Solution was found here. Switch to JACK input and add a special JACK parameter when it starts up in Reaper.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=223015

Great, so I had Reaper working well with MIDI, but there were still terrible clicks and pops and poor latency. We found a solution to that by installing a low latency core and enabling some real-time settings:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=232851

THANK YOU everybody that helped.

So now I'm almost ready to dump Windows Reaper for Linux Reaper, except that I find JACK crashes spectacularly when using Reaper (or vice versa). I mean a total system lockup with a grinding, buzzing sound. The crash is so hard that it takes a total hard shut-down (cut the power) and reboot to fix the issue. It only happens during playback, and seems to be random, but is more common with smaller block settings.

So I could switch back to just using ALSA instead of Jack, which never crashes, but then I lose all ability to record MIDI input from through my M-Audio 192 Delta (which works flawlessly in Ardour and Rosegarden, and in Reaper when Jack is enabled).

As I see it there could be two solutions to this:

1. Miraculously a developer figures out why there is the MIDI-input bug with M-Audio Delta cards and ONLY with Reaper.

2. I fix the Jack crashing issue. Jack shouldn't be crashing - it's well tested with Reaper by many people.

I think solution 1 is off the table as I can't see why the developer would spend a lot of time trying to fix a bug only present in a obsolete *but very good* soundcard when MIDI works well for everyone else.

So perhaps I can find solution 2 by discovering why Jack crashes so hard with my system.

Going by that. Is there any information I can provide about my Jack setup that would help diagnose the cause of the problem?

Sorry about all these questions on the forum - it seems seems like I get two steps ahead then one step back.

Last edited by Ral-Clan; 03-23-2020 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 04:13 PM   #2
JamesPeters
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Did you update your distro yet, as I've mentioned a couple times? It may be important. Perhaps there's a more up-to-date version of Jack in the current Ubuntu repo too (for the current version of Ubuntu); you can probably check this. It's best to start with the most up-to-date OS, kernel and packages, since there have been a number of improvements and bug fixes of the audio system aspects since 18.04 (the Lubuntu version you mentioned you were running).

Also for anyone replying here: it should be mentioned that the CPU in question for this system is a Pentium 4 531 from 2004. That may play a role in this. (I can't comment about a system that old, and if Jack and ALSA will work properly with it or not. But someone else may have info about that.)
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:35 PM   #3
Ral-Clan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Did you update your distro yet, as I've mentioned a couple times? It may be important. Perhaps there's a more up-to-date version of Jack in the current Ubuntu repo too (for the current version of Ubuntu); you can probably check this. It's best to start with the most up-to-date OS, kernel and packages, since there have been a number of improvements and bug fixes of the audio system aspects since 18.04 (the Lubuntu version you mentioned you were running).

Also for anyone replying here: it should be mentioned that the CPU in question for this system is a Pentium 4 531 from 2004. That may play a role in this. (I can't comment about a system that old, and if Jack and ALSA will work properly with it or not. But someone else may have info about that.)
Hi and thanks for posting. No I have not updated my distro (Lubuntu) yet because I just updated to the latest LTS version 18.04, and with this old computer I think I've only got a few more years left in it before even Lubuntu will require a more up to date CPU. So I think 18.04 is the last version of Lubuntu that hardware of this limited spec will run with reasonable responsiveness. So yes, you may be right that the age of the hardware is to blame. I am honestly more productive with this old computer than many people I know who have the latest multi-core computers but only use them for e-mail and web-browsing. In Reaper it's handled sixteen track recording projects with less than 50% CPU load (which is honestly the most tracks I ever use - it probably could handle quite a few more), so still quite useful - as I've mentioned to others - I'm not scoring for an orchestra.

The machine is set up so nicely, after a lot of tweaks that I don't really want to go messing with it too much - I can do really nice audio and video editing on it - I just have to boot into the Windows partition and use Reaper and Sony Vegas there in Windows XP (which I do not go on the internet with - it's strictly to run those two pieces of software). I may be asking too much to do the same in Linux on a motherboard of this age, and might have to wait until my next hardware upgrade this year or next before I can truly expect to get a smooth Linux DAW (and video editing) experience.

In the ALSA MIDI input bug thread linked to above, it was experienced by another user (Glennbo) who was using a much later computer than I am.

I will however look to see if there is a later version of JACK.

Last edited by Ral-Clan; 03-24-2020 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 03-26-2020, 08:11 PM   #4
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Your 192 card should be replaced, it was never properly created,
never well supported on any platform, and works mainly on
luck-of-the-draw hardware configurations.

It may be OK for a strictly listening device, like home-theater speakers,
but it is an unreliable nuisance whenever serious i/o is to be
relied on. To find a rare computer configuration where i/o could be normal
would likely cost you all your creativity hours.

Maybe you can use it as just the output device, with all midi/audio input
done on a quality usb interface, but that might be
needless duplication of serices, if the usb device were also high quality.
A gamer friend might also enjoy
the audio output capabilities, if a good driver is available
for their OS. Maybe cleaning the connector and breakout connections
would help, and the midi connectors could be oxidized.
Cheers
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:33 AM   #5
Ral-Clan
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Figures I would buy the one M-Audio product, out of all their well regarded products, that is the black sheep.

Still, it's served me very well for some high quality work over the years when I used (and continue to use) it under Windows XP.

What do you mean that the Audiophile 192 was "never properly created". I understand there are a lack of proper drivers for Win8 oneward and Linux, but are you meaning that there is some design flaw in the card itself? It got very good reviews when it was released.

And what would you consider a *well supported* Linux USB audio interface? I don't want to make the same mistake again by buying a poorly supported interface. I would need one that would give me at least 2 channels audio input, plus MIDI (four channels would be a bonus).

I guess the era of PCI cards is over? But can any USB interface live up to the low latency of PCI?

Last edited by Ral-Clan; 03-27-2020 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:15 PM   #6
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Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 has very few linux problems
in google, and quite a few people like the Focusrite products,
probably avoiding the cheapest FR model would be lucky.

By extrapolating the history of hardware compatibility issues
and driver woes, one can conclude there are design issues.
The card didn't even support some of the standard OS mixers.
I prefer mixer utilities created by the manufacturer or 3rd parties,
assuming all else is OK. I use an mAudio 24-96, and am happy
with the results, and easy linux support.
With each purchase, we get to find the particular strengths
to take advantage of. High quality output in this case.
Reading mAudio ads for the 192 model
combined with the quality of previous models certainly
made a compelling argument for purchase.
Cheers
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Old 03-27-2020, 06:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ral-Clan View Post
I would need one that would give me at least 2 channels audio input, plus MIDI (four channels would be a bonus).
For less than $175 you can get a four input Behringer with Midas microphone preamps. This is like my unit, but half the inputs. This or other USB units will need at least USB 2.

https://www.amazon.com/BEHRINGER-UMC...5356003&sr=8-7

Quote:
I guess the era of PCI cards is over? But can any USB interface live up to the low latency of PCI?
I decided to bite the bullet and switch to a USB interface from a pair of PCI cards. The difference for me was negligible in that I only increased the number of periods in REAPER from 3 to 4, but still use 64 sample latency for all but the most demanding projects.

Your Delta 192 uses the same VIA Envy24 chip that my Delta 2496 cards had, but your converters are a newer series that can go up to 192, where my cards topped out at 96. The converters are from the same manufacturer, so I wouldn't be surprised if in Linux, the driver your card uses is the same as my 2496 cards used.

IIRC, you are using a really old machine, and with that in mind, a PCI card like you are already using would still likely yield the best results.
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Last edited by Glennbo; 03-27-2020 at 09:31 PM.
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