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Old 05-30-2021, 12:37 AM   #1
Peterk312
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Default Test master [Music removed because of harassment]

*I have removed my music due to lack of moderation of forum and a member harassing me through both posts and private messages.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z8I...ew?usp=sharing
*File now removed

1. Turn down the player to about 80%.

2. If you've got a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones (not older than about 1 year because they lose low frequencies as they age), that's what I'm hearing.


Reference tracks used for comparisons:

Steely Dan, FM, -18. LUFS

Sting, If I ever lose my faith in you, -14.8 LUFS

Constance Amiot, Clash Dans Le Tempo (Putamayo label), -11.2 LUFS

My track: Average Guy, LUFS just under -14 LUFS. Can't get better dynamic range than 11 on TT dynamic range meter. That number is acceptable for jazz, though a higher number is often desireable.



My FX chain includes TDR Kotelnikov compressor and Ozone Elements 9 for EQ and Limiter.
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Old 05-30-2021, 03:06 AM   #2
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The basics are all there, and they are brilliant, honestly! Now what I hear, is that you shy away from more, or rather: enough, low end content. So in the end you EQ "against" your room.
One thing you might try is a completely different pair of (good) headphones and e. g. a demo of Realphones or Sienna. Might help getting back objectivity.

EDIT: And probably not only EQ, it's all (transients, reverbs) pretty upfront – an indication of your room being muddy/boxy/reverberant.
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Old 05-30-2021, 04:56 AM   #3
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Sounds great on my speakers (even while having a lot of years and standing in a wrong place).

Great performances too, is the percussion real? Thinking about finding some Latin like percussion VST coz why not.
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Old 05-30-2021, 06:26 AM   #4
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I was - back in the studio - pretty much able to find (and kind of cure within 15 minutes) the problem areas of the mix/master. The issue is obviously that the initial recording wasn't that great, but it is still more than workable.

As suspected, I was able to dial in a lot (!) more low end which already fixed the general mid buildup. Now I think the main issue is that you use short, small reverbs/rooms which aren't (properly?) EQ'd. So any sibilance (4.2k) or tubbiness (300Hz) in the vocals will be doubled, could also be that you used a stereo reverb with phase issues when the width is altered (which you did?), I don't know. Also tape (Otari 30ips, which still is too trebly, but this was a 15 min test) helped a lot to tame those mids.

The funny thing is: at the first glance, as zeekat pointed out, the mix/master is really good, but once you start to A/B and to listen more analytically, things start to pop out. The more I tried to concentrate on those flaws, the more I understand which problems you had with the master and getting it competitively (in jazz standards) loud and dense.

So:
1) rooms/predelay/reverb EQ
2) sibilance*
3) tubbiness*
4) some mid sweetening

* I'm talking about -1.5dB max!

The song and the playing (and also the vocals) are great, I hope you get it sorted!!

EDIT: Oh, and what sounded really good for my ears, was a tiny bit of a big wide reverb dialed in! Room or plate, both amazing, just a matter of taste.

EDIT 2: Just listen to the side signal only and you know what I mean by the vocal reverb being the main offender.

EDIT 3: Replacing the Otari by a Revox A77 sounds fantastic now.

EDIT 4: Listening again after a short break. I was wrong with my "upfront" comment. On the contrary, you sent most tracks into a reverb, BUT to my ears, it's the wrong reverb. It does nothing in terms of openness or depth, rather blurs the signals and yields an artificial space which doesn't suit the style IMO. Reverb is essential of course, but choosing a believable one (or two or three) is key.
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Old 05-30-2021, 07:57 AM   #5
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It sounds pretty nice to me, I would expect a bit stronger drums and more transitions/fills using toms or something but I am just a listener, not mastering engineer . In general it sounds good, I would listen it few times and make some notes and try to improve it even more but I would think more about arrangement (those fills and transitions) than mix/master. Good job, I like it
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Old 05-30-2021, 09:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
You're getting great advice, so I'll leave the technical stuff to the others.

I just want to say that, after reading your other thread about mastering, etc...I expected this to sound horrendous. It actually sounds WAY, and I mean, WAY better than I expected, and WAY better than you give yourself credit for.
This!
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:49 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
You're getting great advice, so I'll leave the technical stuff to the others.

I just want to say that, after reading your other thread about mastering, etc...I expected this to sound horrendous. It actually sounds WAY, and I mean, WAY better than I expected, and WAY better than you give yourself credit for.
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This!
yep .
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Old 05-30-2021, 12:49 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
I was - back in the studio - pretty much able to find (and kind of cure within 15 minutes) the problem areas of the mix/master...

1) rooms/predelay/reverb EQ
2) sibilance*
3) tubbiness*
4) some mid sweetening

* I'm talking about -1.5dB max!

...Oh, and what sounded really good for my ears, was a tiny bit of a big wide reverb dialed in! Room or plate, both amazing, just a matter of taste.

Just listen to the side signal only and you know what I mean by the vocal reverb being the main offender...

...to my ears, it's the wrong reverb. It does nothing in terms of openness or depth, rather blurs the signals and yields an artificial space which doesn't suit the style IMO. Reverb is essential of course, but choosing a believable one (or two or three) is key.
Thank you for the time to review it. You said a lot here.

The room I did most of this mix/mastering in is not reverberant. It's quite dead with a wall-to-wall carpet and a big bed taking up space in the middle (photo was posted in this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=254106 ). It is however 12 x 12 so no doubt there's some standing waves in it. When I listen to the mix in the adjacent larger room the bass sounds much leaner, but I just though it was "enough" given it sounded okay also in the Sony MDR-7506 headphones.

(1) Question about low frequencies: From about what frequency is it too lean? Do you mean like 60 Hz and below? To give you more background, the upright bass you hear is from the Garriton JABB series (MIDI sampled instrument). It has a LOT of low end, so much that I used TDR NOVA dynamic EQ to tame the frequencies below about 120 Hz, which sounded better to my ears than just a compressor, but I'm using both so that low notes don't suddenly stick out with lots of bass (and NOVA is taming as much as -9 db on some low notes, too much?). Also, I read that it's better to give upper low frequencies (about 220 Hz) to the bass and the lowest frequencies to the kick. When I did that I noticed the kick was not getting blurred as much.

But you see I had another consideration with the low frequencies and the upright bass: The bass part starts to get fatiguing to me in headphones when it has a fuller bass sound, as if too pumping. In fact, that's one reason I dropped the bass out in certain parts of the song (It's a 5 minute song so there needs to be changes to keep the listener interested). I even though it might be that the song should have an electric fretless instead (not MIDI I'd have to play it), but that would make the bass sound even leaner compared to the full upright bass sound, which I like better because it's more jazzy.

(2) Question about reverb: You know how jazz recordings don't have instruments swimming in long reverb and they're recorded close-mic? That sounds the clearest to me, so I was going for that sound except for the vocal, which needed more depth behind it, and the guitar is using a panned delay that's in sync with the tempo. Everything else has the more no-frills sound, but there's enough ambience there to not sound dry and flat.

On the multi-track I have most tracks going to one of two available impulse response type reverb busses: (1) a short ambient reverb (Bricasti M7 stereo reverb called "Clear Ambience" which I actually shortened the tail of t0 be about .2 seconds) or (2) a bigger studio sounding space (Bricasti M7 stereo reverb called "Red Room," length is about 2 seconds). Both have EQ applied including high pass filter around 120 Hz (to prevent muddy build up). The vocal is sent through the Red Room, and that EQ does have a +1.7 high shelf boost at 3500 Hz (but never thought it might be the cause of vocal sibliance). Do you have or know a reverb in the Bricasti M7 IRs you think is better?

If there isn't enough reverb, one thing I noticed I can do with Ozone 9 Elements is use their "Imager" module. When you slide the width control a little it enhances the reverb. But I don't want the instruments swimming in reverb, especially in something like this song that has a lot of instruments in some parts.


(3) And when you mention sibilance, you mean you hear too much still on the vocal? I can tame that in the mutli-track using VOLA compressor, which has a HF de-emphasis. I though compared to the reference tracks I noted that the vocal did not sound bright enough. Vocal EQ also has a +1 db high shelf at about 4000 Hz. It's still too bright and causing too much sibilance?

(4) And you're saying "tubbiness" at about 300 Hz mostly in the vocal or in the whole master?

(5) And what exactly is "Otari" ?
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Old 05-30-2021, 01:44 PM   #9
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@Peterk312: I'll get back in more detail tomorrow, thanks for the really helpful replies! One question though: when you say "fatiguing in the headphones", how loud are you listening? No numbers, just "low" or "medium" or "above medium" level?
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Old 05-30-2021, 02:37 PM   #10
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Sonarworks really helped me with that fatiguing headphone thing, and my headphones are well reviewed and I generally mix at low volumes.

Made a real difference to the length of time I can spend in headphones before my ears a screaming to be freed
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterk312 View Post
The room I did most of this mix/mastering in is not reverberant. [...] given it sounded okay also in the Sony MDR-7506 headphones.
It is. I already can see it in the picture, haha. A square (!) room with low ceilings and no treatment is extremely reverberant. You mention "standing waves", these are reverb.

The brain tends to translate smaller spaces automatically to something useful. You instinctively know (or rather: feel) how big or small a room is, but you take its characteristics as granted. Even more so, when you are in that room every day. It's become so familiar you don't even notice it anymore, yet those issues are there!

The same applies to headphones: even if your brain doesn't consciously perceive that harsh spike in the 5k area (I invented that number, I only know that the Sonys hurt my ears) anymore, doesn't mean it's not there. And they don't have much low end, so the comparison between "not much low end" and "also not much low end" becomes difficult.

On top of all that it's impossible to judge reverb in headphones without the use of dedicated software. Google "HRTF" and "Harman curve". The latter is also the reason why correction software like Sonarworks is a double-edged sword. Rather get the best* headphones you can find/afford and use some HRTF processor on top.

* "best" as in "perceived flat", "comfortable", "just the right amount of bass for my taste"

Quote:
(1) Question about low frequencies: From about what frequency is it too lean? Do you mean like 60 Hz and below? To give you more background, the upright bass you hear is from the Garriton JABB series (MIDI sampled instrument). It has a LOT of low end, so much that I used TDR NOVA dynamic EQ to tame the frequencies below about 120 Hz, which sounded better to my ears than just a compressor, but I'm using both so that low notes don't suddenly stick out with lots of bass (and NOVA is taming as much as -9 db on some low notes, too much?).
Likely about 60 Hz and below (especially below), yes.

Now one of my favourite pet-peeves: heavily processing already heavily processed software instruments! If you need to tweak the sound so much, from an instrument which is probably meant to be used as-is, you should start to wonder. Unfortunately I can't submit any useful experience here - my JV-1080 phase is too long ago, and I was the worst engineer in the world back then. What I can imagine though: leave the low end alone (+/- 1.5dB) and simply add what has to be added in the mids in order to make the bass sit in the mix/arrangement.

The other possibility is that it is indeed sampled and processed that badly!?

Quote:
Also, I read that it's better to give upper low frequencies (about 220 Hz) to the bass and the lowest frequencies to the kick. When I did that I noticed the kick was not getting blurred as much.
There is no rule at all, neither for a "hierarchy" nor for numbers. Please just listen, there's no way around! Often enough the spectral picture might overlap a lot, but (!) by separating them dynamically, you create a subtle distinction.

Dynamic EQ comes into mind which only emphasizes the attack of the kick drum for the fraction of a second. Or some transformer saturation on the bass, which kind of blurs the signal, but at the same time exposes the overtones differently from the kick drum, while also softening the string attack.

Quote:
The bass part starts to get fatiguing to me in headphones when it has a fuller bass sound, as if too pumping.
Then the bass is simply too loud. An experiment: bypass all the Nova and whatnot plugins. Turn the track level down 5dB and instead boost 5dB starting at around 800Hz. How does it sound as you increase the frequency (up to 5k is still an option btw)? Is it too much of a boost/too little?

Quote:
(2) Question about reverb: You know how jazz recordings don't have instruments swimming in long reverb and they're recorded close-mic? That sounds the clearest to me, so I was going for that sound except for the vocal, which needed more depth behind it, and the guitar is using a panned delay that's in sync with the tempo. Everything else has the more no-frills sound, but there's enough ambience there to not sound dry and flat.
Yes I know. My jazz record collection is huge and I listen to jazz 50% of the time.

Another experiment: try to focus on that big reverb (plate, chamber or even the room itself) on most recordings which is barely audible. And which unfortunately you can't mute separately to hear how different it feels without? Just like your mixing room: the brain is not aware of it, but it is there, louder than you think it is.*

When you say "enough ambience", which level are you referring to? I just loaded the "Clear Ambience" IR in ReaVerb (level setting "Normal") and I find it sounds natural at around -36dB. Also: why did you shorten it? Why do you want your song to sound small and claustrophobic? "Red Room" is very small and dampened, too!

Another experiment: substitute by "Studio B Close" and "Studio B Far" (unaltered) - how does that sound for you? Then add another really big reverb, e. g. "A&M chamber" with a 12dB low cut at 250Hz, and send little doses of vocals, guitar and organ to that track. Attenuate another 1dB.

* amazing: I somehow always think of Michael Franks when I hear your compositions. Take "The Lady Wants To Know" as an example for the above - the reverb (tail) on the vocals is huge, while for me they'd still qualify as intimately close and pretty dry.

Quote:
[...]one thing I noticed I can do with Ozone 9 Elements is use their "Imager" module. When you slide the width control a little it enhances the reverb. But I don't want the instruments swimming in reverb, especially in something like this song that has a lot of instruments in some parts.
I think there is a misconception about "reverb". First of all, the Imager doesn't "enhance" the reverb, it just boosts the side signal of an already wide stereo reverb (not something you'd want to have all the time).

Then: a room is a room, be there many instruments in it or only one. They only "swim", or drown, if you
a) overdo it levelwise,
b) use a bad/wrong reverb which isn't meant for creating a believable space but an "effect", or
c) if you have no clear picture of the depth-of-field you want to create. If all instruments (vocals included) are in the background, they of course swim, but it's your choice to place them in the imaginary space (or "stage" as they use to call it in audiophile circles, haha).

A note in regard to a): If you only have close-mic recorded tracks, you could either fake a distant recording, which is possible with the right tools, or you need to stick with a reverb behind the dry signal. Altering the balance in favour of the wet signal too much, is what I mean by "overdo it levelwise".

Quote:
(3) And when you mention sibilance, you mean you hear too much still on the vocal? I can tame that in the mutli-track using VOLA compressor, which has a HF de-emphasis. I though compared to the reference tracks I noted that the vocal did not sound bright enough. Vocal EQ also has a +1 db high shelf at about 4000 Hz. It's still too bright and causing too much sibilance?

(4) And you're saying "tubbiness" at about 300 Hz mostly in the vocal or in the whole master?
No experience with VOLA, sorry. And I'm unable to know how the original vocal recording sounded.

4k (shelf) is a tricky frequency as most microphones are featuring a bump at 5 or 6k anyway, so you'd emphasize that "speech intelligibility" boost. Another experiment: if you haven't installed "ReEQ" (without "a") yet, please do. Are the vocals bright enough if you boost, say, 15k (peak)?

About the 300Hz thing: I only know the master, so in the sum of all the elements, the vocals are getting too tubby, yes.

Quote:
(5) And what exactly is "Otari"?
Haha, sorry! I was referring to a (virtual) Otari MTR multitrack reel-to-reel recorder which is known for being relatively neutral. In this case, at 30ips, it showed its colder side, while 15ips swallowed too many details.

To summarize: subtlety is the key in jazz mixing, especially the reverbs. If you can't properly hear it though, your subtle is my bold.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:31 AM   #12
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Oh, and another P.S. about the rhythmic delay on the guitar track: why does it have to be in time? If this was a necessity, then all pieces of music performed in the same concert hall would need to be played at the same tempo.

OTOH, if you use delay as inherent part of the performance (The Edge, U2), then delay times are crucial obviously. In that case I'd prefer to have delay pre guitar amp, so that the amp and the speaker imprint their sonic character onto the delay part of the guitar sound as well.
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Old 06-01-2021, 09:16 PM   #13
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Just as a fun experiment as this song is excellent, wanted to see how much can be added to an already limited mp3 without squashing it completely. Pete asked what I did so, for better or worse:

1)This EQ chain starts with Ampex ATR-102 for some vibe.
2)Bax EQ with a 1db shelf boost at 84hz to lift the bass a little, -1db shelf at 9khz to mellow the highs a smidge.
3)Q3 EQ Tried a surgical 2db cut at 83hz to (try and) separate the kick and upright, other small cuts to get the sax to sit mellow and stop complaining how he usually gets better beer than this swill.
4)ProMB to tighten/thicken the bass and lift treble at 8k
5)Pultec eq for vintage flavor

level is at -16 RMS

Can't really do more limiting so used
oxford limiter to add 2db
Pro L2 on dynamic to add 1.6 db

Link removed on request of thread author
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Old 06-02-2021, 12:52 AM   #14
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Yes, much better already - still my gripe with it is the sibilance in the vocals and the narrowness of the space. But honestly: my whining doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of 98% of the listeners. Very good job!

Let me see if I can render my version later (the one with added reverb) and put it online somewhere.
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:53 AM   #15
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Here's my take on it. I've rendered several versions with added reverb and without: 0:00-1:25 is the plate, 1:25-2:35 is a room-ish reverb, from 2:35 on it's dry.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18nq...ew?usp=sharing

Let me have a look at the chain here:

EDIT: The level of the audio file is normalized to -12dB RMS in the first place in order to leave enough headroom.

1) transistor stage in order to "re-structure" the midrange. Sorry for the vague description, I can't put it any other way. It's a less aggressive and at the same time more forward sound
2) clean digital EQ, attenuating 300Hz -2dB, and dynamically expanding 4.2k 1.3:1 <- can't remember why I did this, likely for some bass attack?
3) colorful tube EQ in M/S mode, too much to list here. Generally boosting low end in the M and notching it a bit down in the S and giving some sparkle to the track
4) reverb(s) at 11% wet
5) Revox A77 tape for cohesion and less "digital" timbre
6) classic mastering EQ adding 42 resp. 50Hz in the M and broadly tickling the mids a little (M 2.4k and S 1k <- nice texture for the sax and the guitar as far as I remember)
7) vintage tube compressor just for the colour (no compression). That changed the tone a lot in a beautiful way. And when I say "a lot", I of course mean "you likely wouldn't hear on its own, but it makes a lot of sense in the chain".
8/9/10) dynamic processors/soft clippers for final level.

I'm sure with a little tweaking here and there I could go (much?) louder, but I don't see the need for it. As dynamic as it is it sounds just right to me.
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Old 06-02-2021, 06:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Also much better than mine When I listen back today, the Revox is s**te and my much-praised vintage tube compressor as well, haha.

Always remember to take breaks and not listen in headphones only!
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Old 06-02-2021, 06:43 AM   #17
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So out of interest I did another one without any EQ, just tape and several stages of tube and solid state gear into the dynamics, same order as above. Plate first, then "kind of" room, then dry. Oh, and on speakers!

Link removed on request of thread author

I actually like this one.
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Old 06-02-2021, 08:23 AM   #18
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And you guys are getting what you think are better results using only the test master I posted. I was about ready to go into the multi-track and start fiddling with things like the bass and removing some of the dynamic EQ that's making it leaner.

I haven't had a chance yet to A and B these against my original test yet on studio speakers. That's some impressive processing chains that I don't think I can emulate exactly (most of all because I don't have all those plugins), but something to definately explore today.

I just wanted to comment about the use of long tail reverb, and beingmf's version is much different in this way compared to Lucian's version and my test master. Listen to " 'Till There Was You" from Meet the Beatles, or pretty much any song on the album, then compare that long reverb to what you hear on Rubber Soul, for example "Norwegian Wood." I know you hear a long tail reverb on Lennon's voice, but the other instruments sound like they're in a small room, ambient enough to not sound dry, all close mic. I know Average Guy is not a song like these two, but the songs illustrate how I really prefer the smaller, more intimate space sound compared to the big room thing.

I can hear the long tail reverb acting like a sort of "glue" that fills space in between instruments on beingmf's version, but I honestly don't know why that's a missing element -to have to glue together the different instruments? The long tail reverb fills the intro of the song with just the sax and the guitar playing, but I was already trying to do that with the guitar delay, which I thought sounded a little more interesting than a reverb.

So, I'm really interested in getting the tonal balance better first, and that's what I'm going to try working on today.

I'm also wondering just how much work this is, and will changes really make or break the presentation of the music to the public.


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Old 06-02-2021, 09:05 AM   #19
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Just a quick note about the added reverbs. It wasn't my intention to add "glue" to the track, I wanted to open it up a little as I find it a little to narrow or "claustrophobic" (like I wrote earlier). And of course these reverbs are not polished or anything, I just picked two different plugins that sound absolutely okay. For a more elaborated master I would probably use the Lexicon 300 or one of the Nebula Bricasti programs.

And of course it's totally up to the producer - in this case you - to determine the feel and the atmosphere of the final version. I don't say I'm "right", I just suggest things.

Looking forward to hear how the bass will come out! Have fun mixing, the tune deserves it!
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:26 AM   #20
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Wow, what a great thread! I've given the different versions the ultimate test: listening on my 10 year old Samsung TV speakers. Y'know, like people do.

My fav:

Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
Here's my take on it. I've rendered several versions with added reverb and without:

***0:00-1:25 is the plate,***
Tasty. I can hear more of the rhythm section in a natural sounding kinda like it had been mixed like that way, mix overall opened up nicely. Yah, plates even sim plates, can work a little magic, huh?

Quote:
1) transistor stage in order to "re-structure" the midrange. Sorry for the vague description, I can't put it any other way. It's a less aggressive and at the same time more forward sound
Krom help me, I do believe I can hear this. Care to share your secret sauce?

Nothing really -wrong- with the OG version, quite good really, I do think it shows the OPs preferences in mixing and arrangement as much as anything else. Nothing wrong with Lucian's, I think that represents a somewhat hotter, perhaps more modern or "produced" sound. But I'm digging that mf sound.
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Old 06-02-2021, 12:41 PM   #21
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As long as Pete doesn't have a deadline I don't mind playing around with this. It is fun.
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Old 06-02-2021, 12:53 PM   #22
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Care to share your secret sauce?
Yes, sure! It's HorNet Analog Stage. I had ignored it for too long really, and just recently decided to give the demo a spin again. Bought it immediately.

Here's a quick runthrough - driven well into the red, headroom set to 8dB.
Order is Dry - OpAmp - Transistor - Tube.

I love how it changes the depth-of-field. A thing of beauty, isn't it?
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Old 06-02-2021, 12:53 PM   #23
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It is fun.
Extreme fun!
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:36 PM   #24
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I do not have sophisticated plugins to be using here like tape emulators, tube saturation, vintage EQ, etc. However, I am using the EQ and Limiter for Ozone Elements 9, and I switched the EQ mode from digital to analog, which seemed to get rid of some of the vocal sibilance present in the first test master, and it sounds a little warmer.

Test master B:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13CJ...ew?usp=sharing
*File now removed.


Most significant thing I did was go back to the multitrack and cut the NOVA Dynamic EQ on the upright bass by half, so instead of attenuating as much as 9 db below 100 Hz it only cutting about 4 db max now. I also added back about 2 db in the ReaEQ I had cut with a low shelf at 88 Hz. The thing is I read about how recordings with a double bass need to be tamed in the low end, especially with multi-band compressor or dynamic EQ, and I likely went too far on the track. I think the bass is fuller, rounder, and obviously more present than the first test master.

I also cut the multi-track master EQ at 300 Hz to try getting rid of the tubbiness, and I tried to rework the vocal a bit to tame sibilance a little more before the mastering stage.

I also added in a longer tail reverb on the multitrack to the guitar, sax and vocal, but it's just a touch.
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:20 PM   #25
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It doesn't seem to be shared.
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:40 PM   #26
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Yes, sure! It's HorNet Analog Stage. I had ignored it for too long really, and just recently decided to give the demo a spin again. Bought it immediately.

Here's a quick runthrough - driven well into the red, headroom set to 8dB.
Order is Dry - OpAmp - Transistor - Tube.

I love how it changes the depth-of-field. A thing of beauty, isn't it?
Oh cool. I'm a big Hornet fan, I have a bunch of his stuff but not that one, huge value for money especially with his killer sales. I have stuff like SaturatorX so didn't think I needed the Hornet version but maybe I do. I can't get that much insight on these speakers but I do like what I hear, more subtle than SatX but still does nice stuff, especially that midrange trickery.

Quote:
Test master B:
Ooh, now this is interesting. TBH, I listened to the OG track, and then I refreshed my memory of what FM sounded like, and then I shrugged and said, well, he kinda nailed it. But for the rhythm section, which of course the Dan were famously fanatic about, and some serious midrange congestion. Which I just put down to personal preference. I'm a drummer, I like to hear the drums, others not so much, etc. Plan B however, I think is a step away from the reference but I like it much better. I can almost hear the rhythm section like a rhythm section now (I still don't hear enough kick to feel it working with the bass, and I still don't hear the snare nailing down that groove) and I don't feel like everything's beating up the vox anymore. But TBH it now sounds to me more or less like a finished mix that is now ready for mastering... a little glue, a little polish... gonna work out well, I think.

Not that anyone asked.

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Old 06-03-2021, 04:27 AM   #27
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Awesome job, just amazing!
Super nitpicky remarks: I can hear the bass pump a little, is that the Nova dynamic EQ? Vocal room is still too small (or just too loud???) for my taste, guitar reverb is fantastic now! On the main vocal that tiny tiny resonance at ~5.1k (what I had referred to as "sibilance").
But as I said, these are what I hear in my room, might be neglectable in a different listening situation. Anyway, maybe it's helpful if you can hear it as well?
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Old 06-03-2021, 07:07 AM   #28
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It doesn't seem to be shared.
It's definitely up and shared. Improved?
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Old 06-03-2021, 07:10 AM   #29
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But TBH it now sounds to me more or less like a finished mix that is now ready for mastering... a little glue, a little polish... gonna work out well, I think.

Not that anyone asked.
"Ready" for mastering. That was already the master you heard. Oh well...
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Old 06-03-2021, 07:55 AM   #30
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Awesome job, just amazing!
I can hear the bass pump a little, is that the Nova dynamic EQ?
The thing that makes the bass sound "pumping" is if you go too far with the low frequencies. That's the sound of the samples for the upright in Garriton JABB. They're good, but they have to be tamed in a mix, especially a song with faster tempo. There's actually a control for resonance on the Aria player that I had to play with to get a balance. I find I can't put it past 75% or it just gets too overwhelming. My problem, as you can tell, is how far to go before it's too lean? That's what I needed others to comment on.

I have NOVA set to only attenuate with a low shelf. It's transparent as far as I can tell and doesn't enhance to create a pumping sound. Maybe it's just too loud given I added back the low bass?

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Vocal room is still too small (or just too loud???) for my taste
How could it be too loud but too small? You mean remove the smaller ambience and add only the long tail reverb, which I added in but is not too loud for my own taste (Bricasti M7 IRs called "Center Room" at about 3 seconds). Maybe still not loud enough. The louder a long tail reverb is on the vocal the more it's going to sound pushed into the background unless you use some predelay for the attack of the reverb.

*Listen to the vocal in this song, which was one of my master references:

Clash Dans Le Tempo by Constance Amiot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRM6JMDPrjU

Up front (almost too loud), no frills, intimate, no long tail reverb even though there's plenty of space for it. I'm partial to that sound, but the vocal in Average Guy is not quite that loud.


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Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
guitar reverb is fantastic now!
It's now going through that longer tail reverb I mentioned. It added some depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
On the main vocal that tiny tiny resonance at ~5.1k (what I had referred to as "sibilance").
I have a high shelf in NOVA starting at 6k that helps with sibilance and harshness. I'm going to move it down to 5k.

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But as I said, these are what I hear in my room, might be neglectable in a different listening situation. Anyway, maybe it's helpful if you can hear it as well?
What I did that is of great value is move my listening space into my larger living room. It's about 12 x 16 (not square like my bedroom), wall-to-wall carpet, a sloped ceiling (not flat), and the walls might be parallel but they're different sizes because of a closet that takes up a corner. It's going to be interesting to go back to the bedroom now and hear the bass in there.

Other thing I'm wondering is if my monitors are a little boomy in the bass by design. The specs for Alesis 720 DSPs say 50hz – 20kHz +/- 1.5dB
Bass level -3dB @ 43hz, but they are ported. I don't have a frequency chart on them, and they could be as much as + 1.5 db in frequencies above 43hz.
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Old 06-03-2021, 10:21 AM   #31
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I have NOVA set to only attenuate with a low shelf. It's transparent as far as I can tell and doesn't enhance to create a pumping sound. Maybe it's just too loud given I added back the low bass?
Yeah, as I said, it's probably an obsessive compulsive disorder comment from my perfectionist self, haha. All good!

Quote:
How could it be too loud but too small? You mean remove the smaller ambience and add only the long tail reverb, which I added in but is not too loud for my own taste (Bricasti M7 IRs called "Center Room" at about 3 seconds).
Smaller rooms are always louder than bigger rooms, as the reflections from the closer walls add up. One suggestion, as impulse responses are pretty limited (when it sounds good, they're brilliant, but if you have to tweak too much, not anymore): for smaller rooms, I really really like this plugin. It features just enough tweakable parameters to make the room fit your needs, and on top it even offers severely different room characters. I hope you can use it, I think it's fantastic! (I use it only for small to extremely small rooms/early reflections)

Quote:
*Listen to the vocal in this song, which was one of my master references:

Clash Dans Le Tempo by Constance Amiot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRM6JMDPrjU
You know what? I think it's even NO reverb, it's just subtle double-tracking? (Quick listen on headphones) And it's of course pretty mid-distorted, which is nice. My favourite vocal sound in that genre (if we might say so) is this one. Pretty similar dry approach, but solved more elegantly, I find (likely due to the U67).

Quote:
What I did that is of great value is move my listening space into my larger living room. It's about 12 x 16 (not square like my bedroom), wall-to-wall carpet, a sloped ceiling (not flat), and the walls might be parallel but they're different sizes because of a closet that takes up a corner. It's going to be interesting to go back to the bedroom now and hear the bass in there.
This is the best idea! What I do in order to quickly grasp the sound of a room is playing some music through my small cheap bluetooth speaker, fed by the phone, and walk from one room into the next. It's ear-opening most of the time.

Quote:
Other thing I'm wondering is if my monitors are a little boomy in the bass by design. The specs for Alesis 720 DSPs say 50hz – 20kHz +/- 1.5dB
Bass level -3dB @ 43hz, but they are ported. I don't have a frequency chart on them, and they could be as much as + 1.5 db in frequencies above 43hz.
Unfortunately I have no experience with them, but I guess they're absolutely workable, at least that's what the numbers suggest. The room has more impact than the speakers themselves, which you can learn - the room you cannot learn, more or less. It will always leave its footprint on your mixes/masters – which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Rooms are mostly either wrong or right(ish).
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Old 06-03-2021, 11:06 AM   #32
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"Ready" for mastering. That was already the master you heard. Oh well...
Oh, I think it's a big improvement, I especially like what you did with the vocals, I'd just like to hear the rhythm section a little stronger and more clear and I think it sounds somewhat less polished now. I think you're those two small steps away from a really strong release.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:39 PM   #33
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Test master C:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtQ...ew?usp=sharing
*File now removed.

Percussion: Added some low mids to the kick and increased velocity a bit to get it to cut through and have contrasting frequencies with the very fat upright bass. Increased snare volume in some parts but left it the same in quiet parts. Raised level of transition fills.

Bass: I must have clicked off the compressor when I was changing the NOVA dynamic EQ, so I put that on. I also turned it down maybe 1.5 db because it was nice with the low frequencies back in but just sounded too dominant.

Vocal: There was something like a "whistling" sound like sibilance at about 5.1 kHz, so I notched that out -1.5 db. I also tried to refine the mids by notching out 3.8 kHz, also in the range of sibilance, again just a -1 db cut. I think the vocal has less sibilance but still sounds bright enough. The other thing I did was get rid of the "tubbiness" from the vocal at about 300 Hz, but again only 1.5 db.

And I definitely cannot see the vocal having a long plate reverb on it. No matter what I do I just like it so much better without it. It tried working with chamber IRs today, and it sounds interesting, but the sound I hear in my head for this song and the others in the album just is not that long tail reverb sound behind a vocal. It's not as enhanced, not as dramatic, but that's what I feel fits best.

It was a lot of back and forth between the master chain and the multi-track to get this master version. But I think other than something like a plugin that would create tube or other harmonic coloration, I think the tonality and balance are there now, especially compared to first test master above. It's like night and day, but you can't tell except for the bass unless you listen on monitor speakers.

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Old 06-04-2021, 02:45 AM   #34
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YES! OMG, hearing the vocals not being in that closet any longer is so good, unbelievable! In that case, of course you don't need the big reverb, it's perfect that way. Everything changed for the bet---, erm, cleaner, great!

So if that wasn't the compressor on the bass track pumping, the it must be the master compressor, no? I still find it a little too obvious, but that's likely me.

And I just tried this: literally any analog whatchamacallit on the master sounds instantly more cohesive, be it a transformer, a tape machine, a tube or a solid state preamp. I actually liked the SSL master buss timbre every time I compared (in my case Acustica Sand - and Celestial -, but I'm sure there's something good available for free - Analog Obsession or Airwindows spring to mind).

But it's also release-ready-good as it is. Most amazing and refreshing to hear the progress from master A to now C!
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:46 AM   #35
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Test master C:

...

I think the tonality and balance are there now, especially compared to first test master above. It's like night and day, but you can't tell except for the bass unless you listen on monitor speakers.
Nice, I agree, congrats! But IMO it's night and day on regular speakers too. Pat yourself on the back...

But now I wanna hear mf take a shot at it...
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Old 06-04-2021, 08:14 AM   #36
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But now I wanna hear mf take a shot at it...
Haha

I spent a little more time with it, as I was about to test something anyway: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hvh...ew?usp=sharing

It switches A/B with the original, you'll hear the edits on no matter which speakers.

Obviously it's distorted in some ("some") spots and the bass could be cleaner, but what can I do with an already limited file? Yay or nay?
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Old 06-04-2021, 09:20 AM   #37
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And I just tried this: literally any analog whatchamacallit on the master sounds instantly more cohesive, be it a transformer, a tape machine, a tube or a solid state preamp. I actually liked the SSL master buss timbre every time I compared (in my case Acustica Sand - and Celestial -, but I'm sure there's something good available for free - Analog Obsession or Airwindows spring to mind).
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/vst-effects/

I forgot that I actually have FerricTDS Tape dynamics simulator from Variety of Sound.

There's a website still up, but I'm not sure their free plugins are available for download or use anymore. I think I have a folder with all of these somewhere. I have Ferric installed because I think I tried it on a guitar track once or twice.

I also don't know anything about the quality of these plugins and if they're good for mastering purposes.

So, given I know very little about about adding plugins like this for the sake of "improving" the master, I just want to throw out my (likely lame) perspective on this before I even give it a listen. One of the more salient things I recall reading from the book Bob Katz did on mastering was to never use a plugin or effect without having a good reason to, and that's because with each plugin you're potentially degrading the original source. I don't know if this is old advice that with things like 32 bit files it doesn't really matter anymore. Is a very subtle difference really a reason to be introducing a plugin? It's kind of like that road I was on before I posted this thread, one that you can stay on forever with changing the mix and master so many ways it sounds great each way (not in my case here because I needed to make some radical changes) and then you can't make a decision which way it should sound to translate better across many devices.

If you recall my prior pessimistic thread on the seemingly endless task of the mastering process, I was saying how my primary issue was sounds great in a good pair of headphones, sounds great on quality monitors, but sounds terrible on a consumer device compared to music from pro labels. I don't know if I fixed that about as good as I'm going to be able to get or if I just had unrealistic expectations. The term "release ready" must be subjective, yes?

But I am convinced this is better, and having a model for the rest of the songs on this album is invaluable to me, and hopefully will speed up the process.

Can you explain again what is being improved about the master when adding a plugin that simulates tape or tube, and can any of the Variety of Sound plugins suffice?
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Old 06-04-2021, 10:38 AM   #38
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One of the more salient things I recall reading from the book Bob Katz did on mastering was to never use a plugin or effect without having a good reason to, and that's because with each plugin you're potentially degrading the original source. I don't know if this is old advice that with things like 32 bit files it doesn't really matter anymore.
Yes, old advice. Back in the day when you had only algorithmic plugins that needed to run on a Pentium II or a Motorola Mac, he was surely right. But these days, I often prefer plugins to the hardware unit.

Quote:
If you recall my prior pessimistic thread on the seemingly endless task of the mastering process, I was saying how my primary issue was sounds great in a good pair of headphones, sounds great on quality monitors, but sounds terrible on a consumer device compared to music from pro labels. I don't know if I fixed that about as good as I'm going to be able to get or if I just had unrealistic expectations.
Priorities in order of importance:
1) the room: if the room acoustics mask the "pure" sound emitted from the speakers, you're lost. You basically only correct the room's acoustic stamp, and apparently the result will sound completely different in a completely different room. Bass buildup being the usual issue in untreated rooms, you can (not) hear it on your mix. While you think the bass is overwhelming, it is not in a more objective environment. Listening level or distance to the speakers don't have an impact by the way.

2) the monitor speakers: of course there is no speaker without coloration, but dedicated mastering speakers have surely less coloration/resonances/loss than smaller mixing speakers. The same low frequency dilemma applies here as well: musically speaking, the vital bass frequencies cover a range of several octaves! 25-50Hz = 1 octave, 50-100Hz = 1 octave, 100-200Hz = 1 octave. So if the speakers just neglect the lower 2 octaves, how can you judge, and correct, the fundamentals and/or the rumble in a recording?
2a) headphones: generally headphones are psychoacoustically impossible, I really wonder how someone was able to come up with that idea and succeed in a way! There's nothing "normal" about a sound source 1 cm from your ear - it's exhausting for the brain to "decode" the signals it is fed with.
That said, research and technology have come to a point, where it is indeed possible to simulate an easier-to-digest listening environment, but you need 1) software and 2) VERY expensive headphones. The rest won't represent the audio in a meaningful way (regarding mastering).

Don't get me started about the monitoring path. Of course your converters and power amplifiers shouldn't add additional harmonics (aka "distortion") or aliasing ("digital haze"/"harshness").

There's a solution in form of corrective software (I use ARC3, for example), but it only works when your room is at least half treated. The difference is stunning in any case!

3) the tools: only if 1) and 2) are given, you will be able to actually hear the subtle nuances of every processor in your chain. Which is exactly the point in mastering: you want a certain timbre, which is a certain pattern of overtones/harmonics. When they are masked by room resonances or speaker distortion, they're impossible to hear. So you have to learn your tools and gain some experience with them. The order of a chain is essential as well, dedicated mastering switchable patchbays cost a fortune. (Thankfully we can do it almost all in the box now)

4) the experience: the analytical listening skills need to be trained like every other skill. It's fun (if you are like me), and it's a process of several "clicks", and IMO it never ends.

So there you have a part of the answer for your question
Quote:
Can you explain again what is being improved about the master when adding a plugin that simulates tape or tube, and can any of the Variety of Sound plugins suffice?
A merely digital summing of signals is a wild mix of different harmonics and, in the worst case, aliasing. As soon as you run them through one or several harmonically rich processors, it will kind of unify or melt all those overtones into a more cohesive pattern.

At their time, the VoS plugins weren't bad at all, you can try Ferric, Tessla or RescueMK2 for example.
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Last edited by beingmf; 06-04-2021 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 06-04-2021, 10:52 AM   #39
beingmf
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Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
Dude. You're an absolute saint. I've never seen anyone be so helpful to someone else on the internet.

You're at post #37. Amazing. Maybe you'll get an actual "Thank you" at some point. I would have f**ked off a long time ago.
Ha, first of all, I enjoy doing this, as I'm in the process of "refining" the studio right now.

Then: if you're kind of familiar with the Myers-Briggs personality types, it should ring a bell when I say I am 200% INFJ.
Which means: I can almost physically feel the pain of Peterk312 as he's struggling with the results of his efforts. I've been exactly there as well, and it almost (?) made me depressive. So I had to decide, if I simply give up the thing I absolutely love (sound and music) or if I would go to great lenghts in order to achieve what I have in mind (on top I am also 200% perfectionist, which doesn't make it easier).*
As you can read above, it's a spiral of tools > learning > tools > learning > tools etc. as your standards get higher with each new thing you know.

So I'm absolutely not expecting any Thank Yous from someone who is still insecure because things turn out more complicated and abstract as he imagined in the first place.

<3


* you ask: why didn't you look for a mentor? Because nobody is able to read my mind, and the only engineers I really look(ed) up to are Al Schmitt and Erwin Autrique (who never replied, haha).
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Old 06-04-2021, 11:13 AM   #40
fred garvin
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...what can I do with an already limited file? Yay or nay?
Defo yea here, I'd maybe bring it back a smidge given prior processing as noted. I'd have sent you a raw mix. Is that the Hornet again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterk312 View Post
... I don't know if I fixed that about as good as I'm going to be able to get or if I just had unrealistic expectations. The term "release ready" must be subjective, yes?

But I am convinced this is better, and having a model for the rest of the songs on this album is invaluable to me, and hopefully will speed up the process.

Can you explain again what is being improved about the master when adding a plugin that simulates tape or tube, and can any of the Variety of Sound plugins suffice?
Sure, you -could- go on forever, but there's a famous thread here by "yep" IIRC where this guy, I'm guessing a Boston-area Fort Apache-era recording engineer, he never really says, outlines his approach where I first heard the idea, "Finished is better than perfect."

The VOS stuff is still well regarded I believe, not familiar with that particular one. The reason to use it would be you like the way it sounds. What do -you- think of it? I think it kinda, well, "polishes" it is the term I keep coming back. Softens and smooths, in a good way.

Good luck!
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