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Old 01-18-2021, 08:38 AM   #1
Aikido123
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Default Volume fluctuations and waverings in rendered .wav file

When I render out a song I'm getting areas of the track that have small volume fluctuations that I don't get when playing the track in Reaper. It kind of wavers and undulates rather unpleasantly. Any ideas?
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Old 05-15-2021, 06:23 AM   #2
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I don't see a reply, but this was months ago.... I'm having the same issue. How did you correct it?
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Old 05-15-2021, 11:19 AM   #3
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I have no idea about this specific issue, but... whenever you get a difference in your rendered output compared to playing in Reaper, try to render at 1x off-line, or on-line render. Some plugins do not work well with faster than real-time rendering.

There is also the setting Options->Preferences->Plugins->VST->Inform plugins of offline rendering state that can affect this.
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Old 05-16-2021, 12:56 AM   #4
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I've tried reducing the render speed... The issue is the same. You make a good point though, that it is a strong possibility that a vst is the culprit. I considered, as well that it might just be that I have too many going and it's messing with the rendering.

I'll have to do a bit of troubleshooting and figure it out. If I sort it out and circle back let you know.
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Old 05-16-2021, 01:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Aikido123 View Post
Any ideas?
Supposedly the software / device you use for playing back the rendered file.

-Michael
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Old 05-16-2021, 06:13 AM   #6
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A wild idea...
Do you have anything in your monitoring channel?
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by richie43 View Post
A wild idea...
Do you have anything in your monitoring channel?
Sorry... I'm not sure what you mean? Like an inline plugin?

FYI... tried a 1x offline render. Same issue. Tried a mixdown with plugins off. Same issue. I'm going to try an online render and then I'll try re-rendering an already mixed and rendered track from before (no issues). We'll see if we can rule some things out.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikido123 View Post
When I render out a song I'm getting areas of the track that have small volume fluctuations that I don't get when playing the track in Reaper. It kind of wavers and undulates rather unpleasantly. Any ideas?
I hope you come back. I know it's been a few months, but I'm very interested to know how your issue resolved... Presuming it did.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by alphacrom View Post
Sorry... I'm not sure what you mean? Like an inline plugin?
Reaper has what is called a monitoring channel. It's a place that you can have things like analyzers, eq's for small corrections to your environment, and these are not part of the rendered file so you don't have to disable them when rendering.
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Old 05-22-2021, 08:24 AM   #10
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Re: monitor channel... the answer is no, there is nothing there. I've listened across several devices and speakers. The problem is present in all cases. Albeit, it is most noticeable in the high end, as when I'm using my studio headphones or car stereo at a normal volume, it is not as prevalent.

I'm going to continue to look into it and try more things. I may land at a reset of my PC, if I can't figure anything else out.

Thanks for your input, so far.
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Old 05-22-2021, 08:42 AM   #11
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are you saying the rendered file sounds different, even when you play it back through the same amp/speakers as you are using for Reaper?

If you're on Windows, i assume you have all audio enhancements turned off.

What format / settings are you rendering to?
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Old 05-22-2021, 10:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphacrom View Post
Re: monitor channel... the answer is no, there is nothing there. I've listened across several devices and speakers. The problem is present in all cases. Albeit, it is most noticeable in the high end, as when I'm using my studio headphones or car stereo at a normal volume, it is not as prevalent.

I'm going to continue to look into it and try more things. I may land at a reset of my PC, if I can't figure anything else out.

Thanks for your input, so far.
Definitely let us know what's happening. This is a brain teaser!
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Old 06-11-2021, 06:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
are you saying the rendered file sounds different, even when you play it back through the same amp/speakers as you are using for Reaper?

If you're on Windows, i assume you have all audio enhancements turned off.

What format / settings are you rendering to?
Sorry I've been away... All audio enhancements are off. I've been rendering to mp3 at 320. I just tried a mixdown to WAV at 24bit, and it showed the same result.

It is not as noticeable on my monitor headphones as it is with my ear buds (I use them for reference). In other words, it is more noticeable when the low end is less prevalent.

And I don't NOTICE the fluctuations while I'm mixing in Reaper. I even tried importing one of the files into the DAW and playing it in the program to see if I noticed the issue. I don't know if I did.

I'll be honest... I'm starting to think that maybe it's my ears. I will keep trying things, but I think my next move is a system restore and see if that does anything. Any steps I might take between now and then that you fine folks can recommend are welcome

Thanks for taking interest and offering some direction, so far.
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Last edited by alphacrom; 06-11-2021 at 07:14 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:16 AM   #14
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Try the following:
  1. Render out a 24 bit wav
  2. Bring it back into Reaper on a new track sending directly to the master
  3. Invert the polarity of the new track and play teh project

Assuming that you have no processing FX on the master (only meters) this will make audible the differences between the mix and the rendered file and you can proceed from there.

Of course, if you get total silence when playing the project then you know for sure that it is only your ears that trick you.
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Try the following:
  1. Render out a 24 bit wav
  2. Bring it back into Reaper on a new track sending directly to the master
  3. Invert the polarity of the new track and play teh project

Assuming that you have no processing FX on the master (only meters) this will make audible the differences between the mix and the rendered file and you can proceed from there.

Of course, if you get total silence when playing the project then you know for sure that it is only your ears that trick you.
Great troubleshooting advice. I'll carry this out and report back soon...
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:13 AM   #16
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Default Just discovered this thread...

... and I don't think it's been mentioned yet -- but are you having some sort of wave interference, phasing, correlation issue or something?

Try playing it in mono -- can you hear it then? What happens if you invert the phase on various parts?

I mean I'm clutching at straws a bit here, but mad dips in sound might mean a phase cancellation issue. Voxengo Correlometer is free to down load and easy to use... look out for any serious dips below the line on any given track etc, and if that coincides with the sound dips you hear you might be on the way to figuring this out. And you'll even get a clue about what part of the spectrum it's in; I note that you mentioned it's more obvious when you hear less bass. Another possible correlation clue -- is something in the high end causing issues? This super clever plugin can see the correlation at a granularity of up to 64 slices across the audible frequency spectrum. Well worth a try for no cost.

Look here for the plug-in:

https://www.voxengo.com/product/correlometer/

Assuming this ends up being the reason, you could try delaying the left or right side by 2 or 3 milliseconds using built-in "JS: Time Adjustment Delay". This is dead easy to use and might fix it -- albeit you might suddenly find you have other unwanted stereo issues to deal with. But that's easily undone, or might even be desirable for a bit of width, and probably worth playing around with.

Last edited by SiddieNam; 06-14-2021 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Typo correction
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Try the following:
  1. Render out a 24 bit wav
  2. Bring it back into Reaper on a new track sending directly to the master
  3. Invert the polarity of the new track and play teh project

Assuming that you have no processing FX on the master (only meters) this will make audible the differences between the mix and the rendered file and you can proceed from there.

Of course, if you get total silence when playing the project then you know for sure that it is only your ears that trick you.
Update: Not total silence, but that particular test didn't reveal anything discernable.

That said, I have made a discovery. I have been uploading rendered tracks to a shared folder, which I have been playing on my device. No one else is noticing these fluctuations (@SiddieNam, the fluctuations are noticeable, but minor to my ear... not major). I chalked this up to me having a more discerning ear than my non-audio buddies.

However, it seems that when I play the track on my mobile device (which is how I play it as reference in my my car and on my cheap headphones), the fluctuations seem more pronounced than when I listen in reaper. I've been doing an A-B for the last few minutes... Reaper/ Windows Media/ mobile device. I can't detect the fluctuations on my PC, as I can through my smart phone (a Samsung S8).

So... I'm thinking that the issue is with the smartphone. Perhaps it's a bad DAC... maybe it has something to do with file compression. In any event, it probably just means that I can't use my phone as a reliable reference device.

I'm still going to try SiddieNam's advice and see if I can flesh out the problem more clearly, but I think I'm just about settled on it.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiddieNam View Post
... and I don't think it's been mentioned yet -- but are you having some sort of wave interference, phasing, correlation issue or something?

Try playing it in mono -- can you hear it then? What happens if you invert the phase on various parts?

I mean I'm clutching at straws a bit here, but mad dips in sound might mean a phase cancellation issue. Voxengo Correlometer is free to down load and easy to use... look out for any serious dips below the line on any given track etc, and if that coincides with the sound dips you hear you might be on the way to figuring this out. And you'll even get a clue about what part of the spectrum it's in; I note that you mentioned it's more obvious when you hear less bass. Another possible correlation clue -- is something in the high end causing issues? This super clever plugin can see the correlation at a granularity of up to 64 slices across the audible frequency spectrum. Well worth a try for no cost.

Look here for the plug-in:

https://www.voxengo.com/product/correlometer/

Assuming this ends up being the reason, you could try delaying the left or right side by 2 or 3 milliseconds using built-in "JS: Time Adjustment Delay". This is dead easy to use and might fix it -- albeit you might suddenly find you have other unwanted stereo issues to deal with. But that's easily undone, or might even be desirable for a bit of width, and probably worth playing around with.
Totally gonna have a look at this too. Thanks for the input.
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:43 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by alphacrom View Post
So... I'm thinking that the issue is with the smartphone.
AFAIU, Smartphone(at least by default) totally change the sound of audio streams for the purpose of being able to use their crap hardware "sound nice".

-Michael
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
AFAIU, Smartphone(at least by default) totally change the sound of audio streams for the purpose of being able to use their crap hardware "sound nice".

-Michael

Yes; beware of things like Dolby Atmos, which could have an effect a bit like this. It's not for careful listeners. But try my suggestions first, although I support this observation too.
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