Old 06-03-2021, 10:05 AM   #1
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default My volume compared to commercial releases

Hi everyone!
I’m a starting voice over artist and I am completing my first demos. I am very happy with the overall quality of it all, having said that, when I do listen to professionally made demos, it turns out their volume is much higher and the sound more forward than what I manage to get so far.
What could be the reasons for that discrepancy?
How can I make my track sound a bit louder and more forward and still have the files normalised at -3db?
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2021, 10:07 AM   #2
bjohn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Hi everyone!
How can I make my track sound a bit louder and more forward and still have the files normalised at -3db?
Use a limiter?
bjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2021, 10:52 AM   #3
fred garvin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 791
Default

Welcome! Maybe post your signal chain and an example? We have many people here who do vocal work and record professionally, so I'm sure you'll be sounding great in no time, but it would be good to have something to work from.
fred garvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2021, 02:52 PM   #4
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohn View Post
Use a limiter?
Yes, that’s exactly what I have been looking into today!!! I feel like a whole world is about to open up... cheers!
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2021, 02:58 PM   #5
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred garvin View Post
Welcome! Maybe post your signal chain and an example? We have many people here who do vocal work and record professionally, so I'm sure you'll be sounding great in no time, but it would be good to have something to work from.
Thanks for the suggestion and the encouragement Fred!
So far, my chain has been: low-cut filter and substractive EQ (Fabfilter), Mouth De-click (isotope), SSL E-channel for very light compression, CLA-2A for another very light compression, Scheps 73 to add a bit of warmth and presence through EQ and Sibilance (Waves).
Then I would normalise to -3db.

Along my research today, I have just found out about limiting and it sounds like that’s the final mastering touch... and the way to go to being the loudness up and more forward...??
So I just got the Waves L2 and a VU meter to work with all that...

Any tips are super welcome, as I have mostly been doing my own research, and winging it quite a bit 😊😊😊
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2021, 03:55 PM   #6
bjohn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Along my research today, I have just found out about limiting and it sounds like that’s the final mastering touch... and the way to go to being the loudness up and more forward...??
It should certainly do the trick! I use FabFilter's ProL, which also includes some loudness tools; even though you're using the Waves plugin it's worth watching Dan Worrall's tutorial on limiting (using the Fabfilter plugin but it's worth watching for the approach and technique, and his always-great presentation): https://youtu.be/oMJeWXtJODc

Last edited by bjohn; 06-03-2021 at 04:54 PM.
bjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2021, 10:20 AM   #7
fred garvin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Thanks for the suggestion and the encouragement Fred!
So far, my chain has been: low-cut filter and substractive EQ (Fabfilter), Mouth De-click (isotope), SSL E-channel for very light compression, CLA-2A for another very light compression, Scheps 73 to add a bit of warmth and presence through EQ and Sibilance (Waves).
Then I would normalise to -3db.

Along my research today, I have just found out about limiting and it sounds like that’s the final mastering touch... and the way to go to being the loudness up and more forward...??
So I just got the Waves L2 and a VU meter to work with all that...

Any tips are super welcome, as I have mostly been doing my own research, and winging it quite a bit 😊😊😊
Wow, that's a lot of top software there. Yes, it would be typical to have a limiter at the end of your processing chain.

If you're still not quite happy with your sound after all that processing I'd suggest looking at your hardware. What's your hardware chain? Given that your hardware is comparable to your software, I'd try playing around with your gain staging and mic technique. "Forward" is generally hotter and closer, until it's too hot and/or close, you'll see it immediately if you experiment. "Louder", given that you normalized, is usually hotter earlier in the signal chain, and more compressed.

Also if you find you need it you can often get a lot of really in depth help if you post a sample. There are pros here that are so experienced they can listen to your work for a few seconds and tell you exactly what you're doing and what you should be doing.

I'm not a pro, really just wanted to try to get you off to a good start here, but this is just kinda standard stuff and I feel certain someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
fred garvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2021, 11:12 AM   #8
DVDdoug
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
Default

Quote:
and still have the files normalised at -3db?
Well, normalizing to 0dB will give you 3db more without altering the sound...

Beyond that, limiting and compression but these can change/damage the sound, especially if over-done.

You probably won't get as much loudness (with as little damage) as a professional mastering engineer and a lot of people don't like the sound of modern "loudness war" recordings even though they are mastered by pros.




... Some people worry "inter sample overs" and they normalize to about -1dB or so. But, it's not something that I worry about. I'm not sure if it's even audible, and if it is audible it's probably no worse than limiting. Also, MP3 can boost some peaks and some people leave a little headroom for that. Again I'm not sure it causes audible effects and with MP3 you've already decided to use an imperfect lossy format.
DVDdoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2021, 12:53 PM   #9
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred garvin View Post
Wow, that's a lot of top software there. Yes, it would be typical to have a limiter at the end of your processing chain.

If you're still not quite happy with your sound after all that processing I'd suggest looking at your hardware. What's your hardware chain? Given that your hardware is comparable to your software, I'd try playing around with your gain staging and mic technique. "Forward" is generally hotter and closer, until it's too hot and/or close, you'll see it immediately if you experiment. "Louder", given that you normalized, is usually hotter earlier in the signal chain, and more compressed.

Also if you find you need it you can often get a lot of really in depth help if you post a sample. There are pros here that are so experienced they can listen to your work for a few seconds and tell you exactly what you're doing and what you should be doing.

I'm not a pro, really just wanted to try to get you off to a good start here, but this is just kinda standard stuff and I feel certain someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

So I have used a multi-band compressor followed by a limiter at the final mastering stage and I have finally gotten to a point where I am quite happy with the result!
Thanks so much everybody for your insights and input. Super helpful.

Yes, Fred, I love my software gears -never thought I would ever be interested in that type of thing but...- and for hardware, I use an Audio-Technica AT4040 and an SSL2+ interface.
The last mastering chain I have come up with is this: filtering and substractive EQ -Fabfilter-, super light compression -SSL E console-, Boosting EQ -Scheps 73-, super light compression -CLA-2A-, mouth de-click -Izotope- and deesser -Sibilance-. Normalisation at -3db and then multi-band compressor and limiter -L2-

I am quite happy with the result, but to the pros out there -and non-pros with good ears!-, I am all ears to thoughts and suggestions to improve further!
You can listen to my file here:

https://icedrive.net/0/0a9x1MTAfJ

Cheers!
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2021, 01:43 PM   #10
bjohn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
I am quite happy with the result, but to the pros out there -and non-pros with good ears!-, I am all ears to thoughts and suggestions to improve further!
That sounds very good! The only suggestion I would have is to perhaps experiment with boosting a bit in the higher frequencies, and if you're using a de-esser I feel like it might have been a bit too strong. Your s's sounded best to me in the segment on Jack the Ripper, but in the first segment (especially the first word "certain") and in some other places I felt like they were sometimes a little lispy. Controlling the s is tricky of course, you don't want it to whistle or be distracting, but cutting it too much makes it sound unnatural.

The reason I suggest boosting in the higher frequencies is that there's a bit of presence lacking to my ears, it's a little nuageux perhaps.

A few things to try: 1) a small boost around 1.75 kilohertz (this is the fundamental frequency for most consonants); if that doesn't help try one octave up at 3.5 kilohertz. You could also try a small boost around 4kHz. Any of these might brighten it up just a little.

But overall it sounds good to me, nice work!

Last edited by bjohn; 06-05-2021 at 01:52 PM.
bjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2021, 02:00 PM   #11
fred garvin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 791
Default

Tres bon! I don't know anything about VO work but sounds good to me, very clear and pleasant. I spent a few days in Paris and Cannes a long time ago, had a wonderful time, the people were tres gentil but the gypsy kids almost got my wallet.

You might enjoy this movie about a woman VO artist:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294677/

I'm glad you found a good sound. Bonne chance!
fred garvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2021, 04:02 PM   #12
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Thank you and merci for all of your feedback and suggestions. I’ll definitely try them on and experiment!
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2021, 02:08 AM   #13
SteveK_Germany
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Hi everyone!
I’m a starting voice over artist and I am completing my first demos. I am very happy with the overall quality of it all, having said that, when I do listen to professionally made demos, it turns out their volume is much higher and the sound more forward than what I manage to get so far.
What could be the reasons for that discrepancy?
How can I make my track sound a bit louder and more forward and still have the files normalised at -3db?
Most of it was already mentioned. But here are the steps that a pro studio would take:

1. compress the vocals when recording. Typically the mic amp has analog compression that gives a warm and saturated sound. If you use a simpler USB preamp then the software should provide this. Standard is always compression, de-essing and EQing. For the first input just use a moderate compression that still leaves enough dynamic. Once you over compressed the vocals it is almost impossible to reverse that.

2. assuming that your playback was properly mixed and also uses some moderate bus compression. If you use ready to use playbacks you do not need to do anything. If you created playbacks by yourself you should use a moderate compressor on drums, synths or at least on the whole playback bus.

3. use compression on the vocal track. here you have a thousand options and tools. you can use iZotope elements which sometimes is available at special price. It includes a special tool for vocals (Nectar) which provides autotune, compression chains especially for vocals (very good for that price), exiter and special EQ presets. This tool imo is unbeatable for the price, as you do not need to have much technical skills and just click thru the presets and pick what sounds good.

4. after all this the mastering typically is focussing on loudness. standard procedure to make a song "loud": first you use a compressor to overall fix peaks. the difference between compression and limiting is (roughly said) that compression adapts loudness dynamically while limiting just cuts any high peaks. This is why you should use a compressor either on all of your BUSes or at least on the master track. Just using limiter would result in uneven loudness. the compressor adapts and "glues" the mix as typically described. Unfortunately using compression is kind of tricky. you often get fooled by a louder result which in fact is just a loudness gain and not a real compression. The goal is to get a louder listening experience while not gaining max peak. Here you can check google or YouTube for tutorials. And then you will use a limiter. With the limiter you basically gain the signal to 1-4 dB while it will just cut (and micro compress) any peaks above. Using a pro limiter 8oftan also called maximizer) is essential to achieve loudness like pro recordings.

Some additional hints:
You do not need a max peek of -3dB. A headroom of 3 dB might be needed for live recordings where you get unpredictable peaks. On a final record -1dB is fine. If you use a true Peak meter even 0,1 dB would be sufficient if the material is not processed further and heard in a studio only. (processing with codecs / compression will cause higher peaks after compression, this is why i.e. streaming services request masters with -1 dB max peak. but in your case the demo probably is not processed further). imo -1dB is quite common and sufficient for most purposes. Most CDs are mastered at -0.1 dB or so.... even if you compress it to a MP3 with -1dB you should be save.


Tools (I know and use all of them!):
Low budget:
For compressors you will find many free tools. WAVES imo has good value for price when you buy on sale. For low budget limiters I can recommend the WAVES L3 multi band compressor (on Sale 29EUR, just wait a week or so then they will probably offer it ;-) This is very good value for the money! Many years of experience, they have been one of the first offering the L1 about 20 years back.

If you want more pro stuff it can get a little pricy. FabFilter offers pro Comp multi band comp and Limiter. FabFilter is probably used by many pros. Also NUGEN offers a very pro limiter with very transparent sound which I use quite often.
SteveK_Germany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2021, 01:38 PM   #14
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Awesome! Thank you for all this info.
Here is the track, remastered with some of you guys’ recommendations. It sounds so much better now. Big thanks to bjohn!! 🙏🙏🙏

https://icedrive.net/0/413B4KBOWn
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 01:20 AM   #15
bjohn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Awesome! Thank you for all this info.
Here is the track, remastered with some of you guys’ recommendations. It sounds so much better now. Big thanks to bjohn!! 🙏🙏🙏
Sounds great! I do feel like it has more presence now, the veil has been lifted. I hope these demos are successful!
bjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 08:41 AM   #16
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
Default

The remaster sounds terrific. Very professional! Keep those settings as a template so you don't have to recreate it each time. You can also save the complete voice fx chain and pull it up when you want without having to manually add and set each plugin every time.


Echoing what SteveK said, good results for getting a narrative up front is often achieved by not having any dynamics processor take too much of the load but by having several instances in the chain each knocking of relatively small amounts of transients.

This is often achieved with, for example, three compressors in the chain, with attacks and releases getting gradually faster and ratio getting slightly higher, perhaps starting at 2:1 and ending with one at 4:1, with none working too hard, just taking off a few dbs, sometimes just occasionally. And topping it off with a limiter, which is by definition a higher ratio than a compressor, set to transparently nick off the transients that make it through the compressors. Then this can go to the master bus with a "brick wall" limiter set for the desired ceiling and it's gain pushing up to meet it, even knocking off another few dbs. The idea being that you can achieve more dynamic reduction and hear it working less by spreading the work among a few dynamics processors and having each only subtly engaged.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 10:12 AM   #17
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Thanks Steven and Breeze!
Yes, I have actually remastered it once more, by using two parallel compressors prior the limiter, instead of the one multi-band compressor I was used before (didn’t like the sound of that one).
And it sounds better now!
I didn’t know about using the attacks and releases gradually though, so far, I have used my two parallel compressors very lightly, but not gradually. I’ll try that now, cheers!
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 04:35 PM   #18
SteveK_Germany
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilieM View Post
Thanks Steven and Breeze!
Yes, I have actually remastered it once more, by using two parallel compressors prior the limiter, instead of the one multi-band compressor I was used before (didn’t like the sound of that one).
And it sounds better now!
I didn’t know about using the attacks and releases gradually though, so far, I have used my two parallel compressors very lightly, but not gradually. I’ll try that now, cheers!

With multi band compressors you need to check the presets. It can sound very bad if you take the wrong turn. I use the FabFilter MB a lot. It has lots of presets and can sound very transparent. the advantage of MB compression is that you do not get the typical pumping and the sound remains very clear. It only compresses the band that is peaking (i.e. if a kick hits hard, the high hats will still be fully available - that same kick with a normal compressor will lower/cancel the high hats out and the compression will be much more audible).

Also a multi band limiter like the Waves L3 is very useful. The L3 also has an optical indication what bands are limited and how much. Great for the price (when on sale for 29$), I do not know of any other tool in that price range with that crystal clear sound.
SteveK_Germany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2021, 03:50 PM   #19
EmilieM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 80
Default

Thanks Steven, actually, I have just started using the ReaxComp and I prefer it to the Linear Band from Waves and to the Fabfilter that I tried as well -I found it more complicated to use as well-. ReaxComp sounds very transparent to me and I like it!
EmilieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.