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Old 08-01-2011, 12:57 AM   #1
Astro
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Default HELP! Ollie or anyone else... Win7 64bit-Reaper-Rc4

Hi Ollie...or anyone else?
I spoke to you the other day Ollie after I was getting some system hangs.
In that situation I was running the 32 bit version of Reaper on Win7 64 bit.
Currently I am running Reaper Rc4 64 bit on Win7 64 bit, most of my plug ins are 64bit, a few are not...like Addictive Drums etc... anyway on the 64 bit version of Reaper my system hangs have decreased, but still not gone totally, in the 32 bit version they were terrible.
(I checked the Event viewer and there is no real significant info cause the system seized up)
I have a few questions first tho...if thats OK?

Why is it so important to turn off EIST and C1E in the BIOS and power saving options? I mean the Enhanced Intel speed is probably a good thing in the sense that it throttles up the CPU when needed to turbo...and back when it is not needed, is that such a bad thing?
And where do you find these options exactly in bios?
My MB is a Intel DP67DE.

The next question is I am fairly sure the hangs were caused by 2 things, one was a couple of 32 bit plug ins...I have disabled those, they were not that serious tho.

The serious hangs I am pretty sure were caused by the Hammerfall Fireface 400 audio interface locking up.
When I turn it down to 48 0r 64 samples there is a lot of crackling, even with just a couple of synths and drums running...even tho the CPU use is barely on 6.00% for FX and the total is only 1.0% (4% in the Task manager)
I am pretty sure that it was the audio card (FF 400) locking, because of the grinding noise and the fact that once I closed Reaper it made weird grinding sounds even when switching Windows.

So my question is...this board uses a modern via firewire chipset, would I be better off with a PCI express firewire card with a TI chipset maybe?
The card performs OK once the Buffer is 96 samples or higher.
I have spent days and days trying to figure out this problem without bothering anyone ...but its a difficult one and any help is greatly appreciated.
Astro

Last edited by Astro; 08-01-2011 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:42 AM   #2
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It doesn't take much stretch of imagination how "realtime" audio processing is highly depending on precise timing of events, with no margin of error at places. If something starts turning your computer's "clocks" up and down, real life experiences with that range from simple clicks to full-bore crashes. ASIO drivers apparently hate that and they are probably not alone.

That being said, I sifted through the BIOS glossary for your board...

Performance > Processor Overrides > Intel Turbo Boost Technology

If I understood that right you need to set "Intel Dynamic Power Technology" to "Custom" to unhide all following options, or to "Off" to turn off a subset of those without unhiding the options, I'd try "Off" first. If that doesn't change anything, set it to "Custom" and disable EIST + C1E. If that doesn't help there's another "C states" item to turn off on this page.

Performance > Processor Overrides
CPU Idle state -> Set to "High"

could be relevant too. All that should also keep your OS from causing power saving states. There are about 3 billion other options I never heard of and I hope none of them is important for you.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:32 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
It doesn't take much stretch of imagination how "realtime" audio processing is highly depending on precise timing of events, with no margin of error at places. If something starts turning your computer's "clocks" up and down, real life experiences with that range from simple clicks to full-bore crashes. ASIO drivers apparently hate that and they are probably not alone.
Ollie I do understand this, (you are talking in relation to speed step...the EIST I take it?)
But the symptons I have tested seem to point to something else that is more directly related to the Asio settings in the FF 400.
So what I am asking...as I did not get the lower latency (buffer) clicks anywhere near as badly on my older Core 2 duo even tho it is a much older and slower computer and also has EIST and CIE enabled as far as I know.
In fact it ran the same mix at 64 samples with far less clicks and pops than my new 2600k computer does on exactly the same FF 400 latency settings.
So something is under performing on the new computer, and it seems to be directly connected to some kind of bottleneck in the Firewire driver on the MB.
So do you think the VIA chipset for Firewire on the MB is part of the problem?
Would a PCI-2 card with a Texas Instrument firewire possibly do a better Asio performace?
Thats what I am basically asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
That being said, I sifted through the BIOS glossary for your board...
Performance > Processor Overrides > Intel Turbo Boost Technology
If I understood that right you need to set "Intel Dynamic Power Technology" to "Custom" to unhide all following options, or to "Off" to turn off a subset of those without unhiding the options, I'd try "Off" first. If that doesn't change anything, set it to "Custom" and disable EIST + C1E. If that doesn't help there's another "C states" item to turn off on this page.
Performance > Processor Overrides
CPU Idle state -> Set to "High"
could be relevant too. All that should also keep your OS from causing power saving states. There are about 3 billion other options I never heard of and I hope none of them is important for you.
Thanks very much for checking that out, I will look into it ASAP.
Yes you are right 3 billion options...exactly!! Wonder what they all do, by the time I try them all out I will be able to pick up an old age pension LOL!!
Astro

Last edited by Astro; 08-01-2011 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 03:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
But I have to ask once again tho...what is the advantage of switching off EIST and CIE in bios? is it absolutely necessary?
They are the options that cause your system to change various clock rates and voltage settings to save power, which is a well-known primary source of all kinds of trouble on DAW computers. It may not be necessary if it just causes clicks and pops and you can accept them and it's absolutely necessary if it causes crashes (didn't see it causing hangs yet though).

When you have turned that off and you still get underwhelming performance with your interface you can think about about suspecting the FW controller. Despite the massive documentation for the mobo I couldn't find the brand/type of controller in the spec sheet so you need to identify it yourself using Device Manager and check it's compatibility with your interface (there should be a list for that somewhere). But if I interpreted a post on the RME forum right, the FW controller incompatibility situation has improved with the current generation of controller chips.
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Old 08-01-2011, 03:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
I couldn't find the brand/type of controller in the spec sheet so you need to identify it yourself using Device Manager and check it's compatibility with your interface (there should be a list for that somewhere). But if I interpreted a post on the RME forum right, the FW controller incompatibility situation has improved with the current generation of controller chips.
Thanks Ollie...will do.
Yeah I suspect it something else that was causing the hangs...dont know yet what it may be tho...
Also I checked a while back what the Firewire controller is in the Device Manager in Win7, its definitely a VIA controller.
Yeah I also read that the new VIA controllers are better, I will switch off the throttling options and see how it goes from there, I will keep you posted.
Thanks again
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:46 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
When you have turned that off and you still get underwhelming performance with your interface you can think about about suspecting the FW controller. Despite the massive documentation for the mobo I couldn't find the brand/type of controller in the spec sheet so you need to identify it yourself using Device Manager and check it's compatibility with your interface (there should be a list for that somewhere). But if I interpreted a post on the RME forum right, the FW controller incompatibility situation has improved with the current generation of controller chips.
Yep Ollie I turned turbo boost and the idle state off in bios and did various tests playing my test track.
There was no difference at all, the crackles are pretty infrequent at 64 samples (same as with turbo boost on) but there are tons of them at 48 samples (same as with turbo boost on)
So no difference at all really.
I was wondering..maybe as 48 samples is as low as the FF 400 can go (latest drivers), maybe the fireface driver (VIA)on the MB just is not as efficient as the older computer, maybe thats it.
When I switch to 96 samples its a lot better, maybe I will just have to live with it.
What do you think?
Cheers
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:59 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
Yep Ollie I turned turbo boost and the idle state off in bios and did various tests playing my test track.
There was no difference at all, the crackles are pretty infrequent at 64 samples (same as with turbo boost on) but there are tons of them at 48 samples (same as with turbo boost on)
So no difference at all really.
I was wondering..maybe as 48 samples is as low as the FF 400 can go (latest drivers), maybe the fireface driver (VIA)on the MB just is not as efficient as the older computer, maybe thats it.
When I switch to 96 samples its a lot better, maybe I will just have to live with it.
What do you think?
Cheers
Astro
48 samples is really low. Do you do live monitoring or midi recording that requires this? If not there is no good reason to run that low ever. If you need the low latency because your playing "through" a vst or playing an external midi controller then it makes sense why you would have it that low but that doesn't mean it isn't close to that fine line of pops/crackles. The FF drivers are some of the best out there. For lack of a better term, 48 samples is the line where the computer speed and efficiency really starts to matter.

I would stick with Ollie's suggestion on speed step etc until you work this out. It can be very frustrating to have the extra possibility of it causing issues while troubleshooting the main issue. TI FW always comes to mind as being the best choice in this area.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:24 AM   #8
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Also, as per usual all onboard peripherals should be turned off for troubleshooting, you have at least a NIC, IR, and a soundchip. I guess for 48spls you need a fairly low DPC load as well, so a check with DPClat.exe couldn't harm either.
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Old 08-01-2011, 03:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Also, as per usual all onboard peripherals should be turned off for troubleshooting, you have at least a NIC, IR, and a soundchip. I guess for 48spls you need a fairly low DPC load as well, so a check with DPClat.exe couldn't harm either.

One thing I forgot to mention, thats probably very important.
The current tests are on a portable install of 64 bit Reaper in Win 7 64 using mainy 64 bit plugins and some 32 bridged, on this install I am using my older reaper.ini...and Screensets.ini.
Now I went thru those .ini's and a couple of others and deleted any entries I knew were irrelevant or in any way refered to directories that were not relevant.
I made sure all the options were in place...for the Audio card, Vst's directories etc... and so on.
Then from scratch I did another fresh portable install of Reaper in another area in Program files in Win 64, I set up the Vst directories, set the
Audio card so all was the basically the same in options, VST directories etc...scanned the plugins etc..
Guess what? That install crackled much worse even on 64 samples than the modified install, it really threw me.
I checked and re checked the options and they were fine, so this would appear to be pointing to something in Reaper maybe.
This fresh install had so much crackling I ended up deleting it, even on 64 samples and above, whereas the modified version is semi clean on 64 and clean on 96, the fresh one was not.
Whats that about? I cant figure it, but it seems to point to something in Reaper itself.
I also used the latest SWS extensions on both versions.
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:46 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
48 samples is really low. Do you do live monitoring or midi recording that requires this? If not there is no good reason to run that low ever. If you need the low latency because your playing "through" a vst or playing an external midi controller then it makes sense why you would have it that low but that doesn't mean it isn't close to that fine line of pops/crackles. The FF drivers are some of the best out there. For lack of a better term, 48 samples is the line where the computer speed and efficiency really starts to matter.

I would stick with Ollie's suggestion on speed step etc until you work this out. It can be very frustrating to have the extra possibility of it causing issues while troubleshooting the main issue. TI FW always comes to mind as being the best choice in this area.
Thanks Karbomusic.
Yes I dont mix on that setting obviously, but I use it for some critical midi recording with VSTi's.
So yeah I do use it, obviously for vocal and guitar recordings I dont worry cause I can monitor thru the firewire interface, but I need it for VSTi triggerings where the timing is critical.
The thing is there is some other issue (if you see my previous post)
I have still to get to the bottom of that, the disabling of speed stepping made no difference, so now it comes down to.
Is it the VIA firewire on the MB? bearing in mind its a 2600k MB (fast) or maybe something in Reaper...cased on the second clean installation I did, which crackles away even at higher samples despite being a new installation and having all directories correctly accessed etc...
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:25 AM   #11
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You've got the P67 chipset. There are known performance issues with the latest driver. Try using the legacy FireWire driver. Here's how:

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/self...p?DocId=370145

I just picked up a PCIe FireWire card with the TI chipset for $58.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16800998059
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
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You've got the P67 chipset. There are known performance issues with the latest driver. Try using the legacy FireWire driver. Here's how:

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/self...p?DocId=370145

I just picked up a PCIe FireWire card with the TI chipset for $58.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16800998059
Just an FYI that ideally, DPCLat should show high DPCs with that particular issue if it is the one I think it is.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2450963

I make a short mention of it here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...81&postcount=3

If it is not the same then I'd like to investigate to see what other issue there would be with the newer Win7 1394 stack out of interest's sake and to update the performance thread.

Karbo
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelp View Post
You've got the P67 chipset. There are known performance issues with the latest driver. Try using the legacy FireWire driver. Here's how:
http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/self...p?DocId=370145
I just picked up a PCIe FireWire card with the TI chipset for $58.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16800998059
Thanks Kelp,
Funny thing is last night ...I tested it again on 48 samples (low I know) and it performed well, very strange, cause other times it crackles away, (not running extra peripherals or apps at either time)
Anyway I dont totally trust it.
So which do you think would be better...the legacy driver?
or the PCI-e card? I have read there can even be issues PCI-e even cards in audio, something about them using a particular part of the CPU (but I dont know wether that would apply to a 2600k Sandybridge setup?
I have searched a lot but cant find any really relevant info on it.
Also...that card is a Win 2000 card, seems older, would it still be OK on Win 7?
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:55 PM   #14
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OK, I can finally back up some of what I've been saying on this and other threads -- my ProFire 610 arrived today! I have it connected to my SIIG FireWire card (I don't know how old it is and chose it because it's Avid-approved), using the legacy driver under Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit, and clocked externally at 44.1k via S/PDIF. I also have the power-saving features disabled in BIOS (per Ollie's and many others' recommendations).

I downloaded the REAPER and Pro Tools projects from dawbench.com. Using REAPER 3.76 I'm getting about 128 instances of ReaXComp. Using Pro Tools M-Powered 8.0.5 I'm getting about 180 instances of D-Verb.

It would seem I'm running a pretty healthy system now. Core i5-2400 @ 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, ASUS mobo w/ H67 chipset, PCIe graphics card, WD SATA drives.

I know it can be time-consuming, but there's some good advice in this thread (and others). Start trying them one by one. Good luck!
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
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OK, I can finally back up some of what I've been saying on this and other threads -- my ProFire 610 arrived today! I have it connected to my SIIG FireWire card (I don't know how old it is and chose it because it's Avid-approved), using the legacy driver under Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit, and clocked externally at 44.1k via S/PDIF. I also have the power-saving features disabled in BIOS (per Ollie's and many others' recommendations).

I downloaded the REAPER and Pro Tools projects from dawbench.com. Using REAPER 3.76 I'm getting about 128 instances of ReaXComp. Using Pro Tools M-Powered 8.0.5 I'm getting about 180 instances of D-Verb.

It would seem I'm running a pretty healthy system now. Core i5-2400 @ 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, ASUS mobo w/ H67 chipset, PCIe graphics card, WD SATA drives.

I know it can be time-consuming, but there's some good advice in this thread (and others). Start trying them one by one. Good luck!
Nice job!
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kelp View Post
OK, I can finally back up some of what I've been saying on this and other threads -- my ProFire 610 arrived today! I have it connected to my SIIG FireWire card (I don't know how old it is and chose it because it's Avid-approved), using the legacy driver under Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit, and clocked externally at 44.1k via S/PDIF. I also have the power-saving features disabled in BIOS (per Ollie's and many others' recommendations).
I downloaded the REAPER and Pro Tools projects from dawbench.com. Using REAPER 3.76 I'm getting about 128 instances of ReaXComp. Using Pro Tools M-Powered 8.0.5 I'm getting about 180 instances of D-Verb.
It would seem I'm running a pretty healthy system now. Core i5-2400 @ 3.1 GHz, 4 GB RAM, ASUS mobo w/ H67 chipset, PCIe graphics card, WD SATA drives.
I know it can be time-consuming, but there's some good advice in this
thread (and others). Start trying them one by one. Good luck!
Thanks mate...much appreciated.
One more question tho...I am running 64 bit Win.
I have used the latest RME firewire drivers...the version 3.047 on 21/06/2011.
Are the actual legacy drivers 64 bit? and why would they be better than the ones that RME recently released?
I am asking this because RME specialize in Audio it seems incredible that they would have just released drivers that are not good on Win 7 P67 boards.
Just curious.
Thanks again
Cheers
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:28 PM   #17
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The "legacy" driver refers to a Windows driver for FW controllers, not an audio driver.

http://kc.flexradio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
The "legacy" driver refers to a Windows driver for FW controllers, not an audio driver.

http://kc.flexradio.com/KnowledgebaseArticle50433.aspx
Ollie & Kelp Thanks for the post and the link
(I used the select from list option in the DM cause the directory they gave does not exist)
Yep I understand its a firewire controller driver for the MB VIA chipset.
Actually I tried the Windows Legacy FW driver, it was no good at all.
Re booted several times...and Reaper kept seizing up with it coninuously
(I think the Hammerfall did not get on with it),
once I switched back to the Via driver it was much better.
So in this instance it appears that using the Legacy driver is a no go.
I may look into SIIG TI PCI-e card...I found one for $38 NN-E20012-S2 I guess even if it does not solve the problem, its worth a try.
Cheers

Last edited by Astro; 08-03-2011 at 03:42 AM.
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