reasurround prerelease discussion

[schwa]

There is a major ReaSurround overhaul in 6.21+dev0123 and later builds. Please post bug reports and feedback here.

[olilarkin]

very cool

[musicbynumbers]

First off - thanks so much for this! Going to make mixing in any large speaker format so much easier! Thanks for taking on this complicated and messy world of surround!

Some things I'm noticing so far are below (but other surround uses please correct me if I'm wrong on the 5.1 stuff, been a while since 5.1).

- We have an action that sets up a 7.1.4 in the ITU standard but no preset for 7.1.4 ITU inside the actual plugin (it comes up as "user" in reasurround).

- The 5.1 ITU preset (as far as I know) is using the wrong speaker positions. Even though they are technically "rear speakers", they are normally in the same place as the actual ITU "sides" are. They are also called "surrounds" instead of rears or sides.
See this diagram for clarity here

- Would be great if the alt modifier (and others) could also change height in the TCP/MCP versions of the display. (but no worries if that's tricky to do).

-Wouldn't say no (at some point) to a resizable plugin window as it would be great to be able to make the actual "room" very big for the times when we have a lot of inputs in one reasurround at once.

I'll add more once I dip in as I've not even had time to read all the feature list stuff yet and try those out. Very exciting stuff though!

[plush2]

This is amazing. Thanks for starting us down this road.

Those are some solid observations musicbynumbers.

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

- The 5.1 ITU preset (as far as I know) is using the wrong speaker positions. Even though they are technically "rear speakers", they are normally in the same place as the actual ITU "sides" are. They are also called "surrounds" instead of rears or sides.
See this diagram for clarity here

In my experience this distinction between ITU and FILM is usually (except in the cases of an outside circle panner a la Adobe) ignored unless both rear and side speakers are present (7.1). I think the logic is that if there are only side surround speakers then one doesn't want a big blank spot in the back of a puck style panner where no speaker sources are fed. If one is mixing for ITU then their speakers are set up as such and the output is formatted as such. The picture on the panner does not necessarily need to reflect the layout in the room. Please explain the jeopardy of working this way if I'm wrong.

[musicbynumbers]

-I get quite bad visual lag when touch automating a reasurround input panner even though cpu usage is very low. So bad is the lag that reaper will not put down a single automation item but drop in and out (placing several) with how many it places depending on how fast I move the panner around. This gets even worse when using the option "bypass underlying envelopes outside of automation". I tried hiding the TCP panner and still bad. Especially if you also link other panners too.
AH.. Just found something useful I hope. If I move the input in the room view then I get the issues but if I move it via the "edit all inputs" controls then it's all as expected and smooth in all ways. I thought maybe mouse polling but it does the same on the wacom

-I insanely love that we have great linking options now but it would be cleaner if when linking two or more inputs, the lowest numbered input is master to the others when moving them so that it only needs to record automation for the 1st input as the automation gets messy fast in the current form with 2 or more links. Maybe as an option as I can see benefits to both (I accept the mess though if I decide to unlink again at a later date)

-Altering height (via "alt" modifier) only seems to work when the view is in 3D mode. Would love to see if work in flat mode (could have sworn it did).

-Rotation/Expand/contract linking for automation. I can see why it's like this but I really wish there was a way to have these "Edit all input" controls somehow automatable as single entities so that we can do things like put a LFO in an automation item and rotate a sound that way rather than having to record in the automation "live" using these controls and then take the (for stereo example) 4 recorded automation lanes and edit it to make it work as a looped rotation. I don't have an answer either yet though

-Mouse modifiers (or use middle mouse) in 3d view to be able to quickly rotate the view etc.

-mouse modifer for soloing the input panner you have clicked on. This would be amazing fast way of picking out and positioning sounds when you have more than a few inputs at once (rather than doing it manually at the bottom)

-Messing about with automation just reminded me that we can't multi select the actual automation lanes so if I want to completely delete all those lanes at once I have to do it manually or perhaps by an action (haven't checked yet). I know that's out of scope but thought it worth mentioning as surround deals in "reams" of automation, more than most other uses I believe.

[musicbynumbers]

I can see what you mean there about the space at the back. When I first set up my 5.1 (before I went to 7.1.4), I too was freaked out by the "surrounds" basically being nearly at the sides and only a bit to the rear but after reading too many dolby documents, I accepted it and deal with it using diffusion but I can see your point about it for sure. :0

I can't help feel though if the real world speakers are in that circle arc and basically are where the 7.1 sides would be then it would be nice to see them there on the preset and then use the diffusion parameter to aid in this. Especially as all other ITU speaker positions are correct.

An addition to this is that we do actually have a normal surround preset that is set up in the square "corners" configuration for 5.1 which is potentially more useful in the scenario you mentioned.

Maybe check that normal 5.1 surround preset out and see if that fits with what you mean. If so, we could hopefully get the ITU version to be in the circle with that position corrected.

Happy for others to chime in though. Nothing in surround is ever black and white!

Originally Posted by plush2

This is amazing. Thanks for starting us down this road.

Those are some solid observations musicbynumbers.



In my experience this distinction between ITU and FILM is usually (except in the cases of an outside circle panner a la Adobe) ignored unless both rear and side speakers are present (7.1). I think the logic is that if there are only side surround speakers then one doesn't want a big blank spot in the back of a puck style panner where no speaker sources are fed. If one is mixing for ITU then their speakers are set up as such and the output is formatted as such. The picture on the panner does not necessarily need to reflect the layout in the room. Please explain the jeopardy of working this way if I'm wrong.

[plush2]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Happy for others to chime in though. Nothing in surround is ever black and white!

Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by plush2

Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.

Yeah definitely a good idea to see what others say. I've gave a "heads up" post in the surround forum area that there's an amazing update to get involved in so hopefully they will see it and get involved soon.

[juliansader]

Would it be feasible to add binaural output to ReaSurround?

Steam Audio provides a fully-featured C SDK for binaural 3D spatialisation -- and it is free to all developers.

I've used the Steam Audio plugin in Unreal Engine and Unity 3D and it sounds amazing!

[musicbynumbers]

This would be amazing!

Especially if automatable so we can track it with headsets

Originally Posted by juliansader

Would it be feasible to add binaural output to ReaSurround?

Steam Audio provides a fully-featured C SDK for binaural 3D spatialisation -- and it is free to all developers.

I've used the Steam Audio plugin in Unreal Engine and Unity 3D and it sounds amazing!

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

-I get quite bad visual lag when touch automating a reasurround input panner even though cpu usage is very low

Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?

[sonictim]

Originally Posted by plush2

Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.

From a film perspective, circular panners are the devil. I want something that represents the room I'm sitting in when I'm mixing. However, the greatest benefit to me of a square shaped panner, is, I can quickly throw the puck into a corner and know I have exactly put the sound only in that speaker. If I put my puck in that corner, which is fast and efficient, I know my sound is 100% only there and not accidentally spilling in somewhere else.... However, this leads me to my next post.....

[sonictim]

OH MY GOD! I'm too happy so far with all the experiments I've been running on the new panner mode. Thank you thank you thank you for tackling this. I know this is just the start, but again, I can't express enough how huge this is...

That said, I do have one feature request for now. When in panner mode in a specific setting (eg 5.1 or 7.1.4) it would be wonderful if I could click one of the speaker icons, and it would instantly move any selected pucks directly to it. I just sang the praises of corners allowing us to speed up this quick pan to a location process, but having the ability to click and speaker and know my sound is 100% where it should be is ESSENTIAL for the center channel and very useful for all the rest.

Okay, back to playing with this thing....

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?

Just tested and all 3 views. (but only when moved in them. Moving via "edit selected input" knobs" is fine).

It also makes the play cursor get stuck quite a lot and this is an issue I've seen in other plugins when I've got automation showing and playing back the arrange (not even recording).

It goes away when automation is hidden.

Maybe I've got an option on that I shouldn't have but not sure what.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by sonictim

When in panner mode in a specific setting (eg 5.1 or 7.1.4) it would be wonderful if I could click one of the speaker icons, and it would instantly move any selected pucks directly to it. I just sang the praises of corners allowing us to speed up this quick pan to a location process, but having the ability to click and speaker and know my sound is 100% where it should be is ESSENTIAL for the center channel and very useful for all the rest.

Love that idea! It's often the case that we want a certain input mapped to just that speaker so good idea

maybe it should be a double click to avoid accidents?

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by sonictim

From a film perspective, circular panners are the devil. I want something that represents the room I'm sitting in when I'm mixing. However, the greatest benefit to me of a square shaped panner, is, I can quickly throw the puck into a corner and know I have exactly put the sound only in that speaker. If I put my puck in that corner, which is fast and efficient, I know my sound is 100% only there and not accidentally spilling in somewhere else.... However, this leads me to my next post.....

Good to have other opinions on this thanks I'm torn between what's reflective of the real world, dolby requirements and then what's more "useful" when it comes to panning.

So my room (in 5.1 mode) looks like the ITU room below (my speakers don't look like that (see image here) but they are delayed (and gained) to arrive in the circle you see in the image below.



That's how dolby wants you to have 5.1 set up (even at home) and although obviously that's not the case for a lot of home users. That's how 5.1 mixing should be.

Another great thing about this is that going to 7.1 is as simple as adding in the two rear speakers and then the 5.1 "surrounds" are now the "sides". no need to move things

I might try panning using the normal surround preset as that's square and see what I think but all I think we need is that at least the ITU preset has the same speaker positions as this

We have the square option already and need this too.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?

Also. the slow down and stutter is there even without automation if I'm just playing back a drum loop for instance and move the reasurround input panner

[svijayrathinam]

Schwa !!! this is awesome !! Thank you so much !! Its amazing !!

+1 for clicking on the speaker and have the pan pucks snap to it.

Feature Request:

1. I would like to see the sliders next to the Left/Right, rear/Front etc..To be bigger

2. Also would be very useful to have a Z Axis in the Input Gain/LFE/Diffusion Pull Down Menu. And the Ability to Link the sliders here will be very very useful....



Bugs:
1. I am not able to automate X and Y pans in one Pass and Z axis Pan in the second Pass. If I put the plugin in latch mode and then automate the Z pan, and then do another pass to automate the X And Y Pan..the Z axis envelope also gets overwritten. Latch Mode should only affect the parameter that is being adjusted. It shouldn't affect the other parameters that's isn't being written.

2. Resetting the pan pucks gets settled in the middle of the panner. Ideally When input channels is 1 resetting the pan puck should settle in the centre speaker and not in the middle of the room


thank you again !! Reaper Rocks !!!

[svijayrathinam]

Schwa...
another feature request:

Would it be possible to have the surround panner show up in this part instead of using it as FX ?

Pls see attached image..


Having the surround panner show up there would give me the option to send to reverbs before the signal goes to surround panner. If user want it to go to send after the surround panner you could add an option in the send "follow main panner"

This will be very helpful.

[musicbynumbers]

In panner mode with the input diffusion at 0. This whole area in red is silent. I'm not sure if that's intended?

Also, if I put the diffusion up a tiny bit. It seems to act as expected.

Maybe there's a reason though that it's silent there when diffusion is 0?

[musicbynumbers]

agreed on svijayrathinam's points.

One thing I'm coming across in 7.1.4 is that unless diffusion is at 0. In all 3 mix modes you will always get something coming out of the 4 top speakers even if the pan position is basically on the "floor" and as low as it can go.

That seems a little off to me and seems that even with the influence up to say 25%. If you have the Z axis on the floor. You shouldn't hear any top speakers.

Does that make sense to others too?

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

In panner mode with the input diffusion at 0. This whole area in red is silent.

The reason is technical and it's essentially a bug, but fwiw the the speaker influence gradient display is giving you a hint about what's going on. The panner thinks the side speakers are so far back that they are actually rear speakers, so its trying to pan L/R between the side and rear speakers. That's why the gradient is so small around those speakers.

I *think*, but not sure, that if you move the side speakers to the front just a tiny bit, the panner will recognize them as side speakers, and the gradients should open up and pan as you expect.

We can fix this on our side by updating the panning logic to recognize the side speakers in a setup like this.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

That seems a little off to me and seems that even with the [s]influence[s] diffusion up to say 25%. If you have the Z axis on the floor. You shouldn't hear any top speakers.

For an input on the floor, the panner interprets a diffusion of 25% as meaning that the input should affect the overhead speakers exactly as much as if the input had a height of 25%.

[musicbynumbers]

Why does the "side" fader not work in the ITU preset but does in the "surround" one?

Is that part of ITU spec?

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

We can fix this on our side by updating the panning logic to recognize the side speakers in a setup like this.

Cool. I'll give that a try but happy to see a fix for sure

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

For an input on the floor, the panner interprets a diffusion of 25% as meaning that the input should affect the overhead speakers exactly as much as if the input had a height of 25%.

I see what you mean. That's fine in that sense.

I think if the deadzone fix is put in then a diffusion of 0 at least keeps the object out of the top speakers but..

It's a big shame that diffusion currently works on both the XY plain and the Z plain all at the same time as it limits using diffusion for just expanding the influence in the XY whilst not bleeding into the tops at all.

If there was a way to decouple this or an additional slider next to diffuse that could take even a large diffusion out of the top speakers that would be super useful.

Maybe there's a better way to do it than that though but someway of decoupling or disabling either influence would be something I can feel others cry out for at some point too as the tops only get used for special fx in a lot of current films that I've analysed

hmm. Maybe a diffusion "shape" parameter that allows us (when slider all the way left) in 3d to either flatten the sphere into just the XY plane (or when slider all the way right) it shrinks it in the XY and expands it in the Z. (centred it's a sphere as normal).

Guess that's a bit like it used to be right?

[musicbynumbers]

Also. What happens to older projects using reasurround? Is this version still compatible and has the older way of doing the diffusion etc?

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Also. What happens to older projects using reasurround? Is this version still compatible and has the older way of doing the diffusion etc?

Old projects should play back the same, but there's no way to make further edits to the diffusion rotation or the other deprecated parameters.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Why does the "side" fader not work in the ITU preset but does in the "surround" one?

That's the same bug as the other one you reported -- the panner isn't recognizing 1 and 2 as side speakers in that setup, it thinks they are front speakers.

[musicbynumbers]

I did just realise we still have the ability to change the speakers influence so I dialled back the top speakers and then this allowed me to add a influence to the input panner without getting into the tops but I could still add it to the tops by moving it upwards if I wanted too.

That's good to know but a way to either squash the sphere shape into the XY or stretch it into the Z would definitely be great to have.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

Old projects should play back the same, but there's no way to make further edits to the diffusion rotation or the other deprecated parameters.

cool. That's good to know that if not changed in diffusion than at least it works the same, Will save some questions when people update to this version.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

That's the same bug as the other one you reported -- the panner isn't recognizing 1 and 2 as side speakers in that setup, it thinks they are front speakers.

Gotcha! all good there too.

And just to reiterate.. This is AMAZING WORK HERE!

Especially the linking stuff.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Also. the slow down and stutter is there even without automation if I'm just playing back a drum loop for instance and move the reasurround input panner

does it change anything if you record arm the track?

[schwa]

Originally Posted by svijayrathinam

1. I am not able to automate X and Y pans in one Pass and Z axis Pan in the second Pass. If I put the plugin in latch mode and then automate the Z pan, and then do another pass to automate the X And Y Pan..the Z axis envelope also gets overwritten. Latch Mode should only affect the parameter that is being adjusted. It shouldn't affect the other parameters that's isn't being written.

Are you trying to do this with the mouse and pucks, or the edit knobs? I think this should work as expected if you do the movements via the edit knobs, left/right and up/down.

[svijayrathinam]

I am trying to do this with mouse and pucks . I did notice this works with edit knobs it works

[svijayrathinam]

https://developer.dolby.com/

https://dolby.io/


Schwa and justin.. I just noticed Dolby has made the atmos API available for developers for free.. perhaps you can implement objects panning also in reasurround. This would enable offline bounce of Dolby Atmos mix possible in reaper just like Nuendo and protools . Can you pls take a look at this ?

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Justin

does it change anything if you record arm the track?

Unfortunately not. sorry. I also tried have the track not selected in case it was a media buffering issue. I tried to change my buffer behaviour too as I normally find "2" to be best but I tried the other extreme too. Will try a few plugin settings too.

It's still smooth when recording or just moving the "edit selected inputs" controls but not via grabbing the input itself.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by svijayrathinam

https://developer.dolby.com/

https://dolby.io/


Schwa and justin.. I just noticed Dolby has made the atmos API available for developers for free.. perhaps you can implement objects panning also in reasurround. This would enable offline bounce of Dolby Atmos mix possible in reaper just like Nuendo and protools . Can you pls take a look at this ?

holy shit! That can't be true? I took a look at those links and couldn't find anything specific though?

If so, that is a massive win for media creators.

And totally agreed. If Reaper got the ability to render out to dolby atmos files before any other daw (apart from Nuendo and Protools) then it would get a lot of media people buying it fast and also make the current users super smug!

(Probably a lot of work though right?)

[schwa]

Originally Posted by svijayrathinam

https://developer.dolby.com/

https://dolby.io/


Schwa and justin.. I just noticed Dolby has made the atmos API available for developers for free.. perhaps you can implement objects panning also in reasurround. This would enable offline bounce of Dolby Atmos mix possible in reaper just like Nuendo and protools . Can you pls take a look at this ?

I'm not actually finding an API on their somewhat overdesigned website...

[musicbynumbers]

Maybe it's the first link here?

https://developer.dolby.com/platform.../download-api/

EDIT: that seems for amazon. If you go back up you need a login so maybe it's behind a login. I'm tempted to sign up just to see if it's true