Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Recording Technologies and Techniques

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-20-2021, 06:33 AM   #41
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default

so you can buy mixer with digital outputs now?

its 1800cnd

cool idea though would make life in the studio easier
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 07:17 AM   #42
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

That's an analog mixer with a 24/24 channel audio interface built in. Kind of a combo product.

When you want a simple old school analog board for a rehearsal space or a very small club (with acts that don't really need "production"). And then you go home every night with a full multitrack. Good deal when it makes sense.

On the other hand...

We have the X32 Rack. It goes for a couple hundred more. It's a digital board and thus any "production" you might need is a click away. Same 16 mic preamps. (Midas). You'll also need to buy an iPad. So... $300 more than the above combo board. But now you have graphic eq on every mix output, good eq and two dynamics on every channel (including bus returns), and everything including mic preamp levels can be saved.

The usual configuration of most audio interfaces is to include a digital mixer. Some of them are VERY simple - like a balance knob for DAW output vs interface inputs. Some are a full fledged mixing and fx rack like the X32 Rack. And everything in between. MOTU and RME have more advanced feature mixers (not quite the X32).

Most people use modest computers and don't run any live sound through the computer mixer. Live input monitoring is through the interface mixer. Relaxed block size on the computer. Use the processing available for plugins and such.

Some people do live performance through the computer mixer. This requires a fast interface to begin with (for lowest latency possible at any block size) and then a fast computer. Everything needs to have imperceptible lag.

If you're just monitoring inputs through the interface mixer (or a combo analog board + interface unit) and you don't need fancy production, you can get away with a light weight computer and average audio interface and be none the wiser.

Maybe that helps?
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 08:33 AM   #43
uncleswede
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,042
Default

My band recording experience has only been on live (or rehearsal) stages, running the PA and monitor mixes through a Behringer XR18 with simultaneous 18 channel recording over USB 2.0 to a dedicated laptop. Works marvellously and, I'm sure, would also do very nicely in a studio setting.

An XR18 (18 simultaneous inputs, 2 Main outs, 6 Aux sends/outs, 4 FX busses) in the UK is currently £399 (Amazon uk).

For apparently better quality input preamps (but no other advantage, AFAIK), the Midas MR18 is currently £499 (Andertons UK)
uncleswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 10:40 AM   #44
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default faders,..wow how old school

for various reasons its not really effective to get a digital board
right now ,..starting with i dont have the space

i dont know if ill be able to afford a lockout room

really seems like it would make life easier though

as a comparison though the pre amps would be lower quality
than a 8 channel interface plus extended 8 digital preamps
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 11:02 AM   #45
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 6,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
for various reasons its not really effective to get a digital board
right now ,..starting with i dont have the space
A bandmate of mine who records occasionally at my place has two of these,

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...-digital-mixer

and offered to let me use the spare one, but I also don't have the space for a big mixer, and much prefer a 1U rackmount interface without a jillion knobs and faders.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 11:40 AM   #46
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

A digital board will cost significantly more than these combo analog board + audio interface units too. You kind of want to need the board itself because you're paying for it.

On the other hand, you can often use a digital board as a control surface for a DAW. That's how it's set up internally anyway. It's digital. (And no, this is never an option with an analog board.)

Maybe shop for an audio interface with a built in digital mixer with the features you like to cover tracking and overdubbing monitoring comfortably.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 05:25 PM   #47
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default

i think ill buy a p.o.s m-audio then throw it away if i sell a song
or things get rolling

iterfaces are not good value for the money from what ive seen

kind of ridiculously expensive for high quality

strange when the price for an a/d chip is so cheap
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2021, 06:28 PM   #48
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Haha!

Back in the day you used to have to buy a very expansive tape deck. (5 or 6 figures) Learn the maintenance and calibration. Tape cost $40 - $80 a minute depending on the speed you used.

Only 30 years ago the only choice for AD or DA converters that worked reasonably well cost $1000 per channel.

That you can get 8 - 16 channels of mic preamp, AD conversion, and some digital I/O in addition for $300 - $1000 now and record for free to hard drives with a computer is happiness and light X1000!

PS. The expense is in the analog circuits and analog stages of the AD and DA circuits. Look up an SSL console if you want to see what "expensive" really means!

There is a lot of frugal minded advice in this thread. The audio interface is a bullet point part of a recording system.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2021, 07:52 AM   #49
Beat Machine
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 392
Default he doesnt want the middle of the road option

what percentage of your costs do you have to sink into something thats going to become obsolete
where do you comprimise if your on a budget?

1000 for 8 channels + a breakout box
2k...
that should be a 10% investment, so your looking at a 20k studio overall

theres mics , processing and the room to pay for

your entirely correct its a cornerstone of the recording chain
all the more reason not to want adat connectivity ect

personally i would rather have good mics

also prices in canada seem to be really marked up
8 chnnel focusrite claret -950cdn used

this seems to be what you really need though\
https://vintageking.com/neve-1073opx...te-card-bundle

Last edited by Beat Machine; 06-21-2021 at 11:05 AM.
Beat Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2021, 11:11 AM   #50
DrFrankencopter
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 224
Default

My stock answer to this question is 'usually about 2 more than you actually have'.

The real answer depends on workflow, and the size of the band. Live drums...that's gonna change things. Everyone wants to cut live from the floor...that's more channels.

If you are doing full band work, I'd start with 16. You can make 8 work but there's compromises you'll have to make.
__________________
RME TotalMixFX Actions for Reaper here: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/29339/reape...MixOSC_x64.dll
DrFrankencopter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 08:25 AM   #51
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default still mostly confused

the thing is i can rent time in a studio that has a digital soundcraft board (w usb out)

so i pay for time not gear.

------------------------------------------------

i dont really like any interface under 1k

but my budget is about 800 a month

and i just bought a $800 bass amp/speaker

it looks like ill have to pay a few ppl as well

i really need a proper budget before i can figure this pickel out
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 08:45 AM   #52
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Start shopping used.

Ebay is a buyers market. That means low risk for buyers with generous protection and high risk for sellers. You can lie and return something for a full refund if you change your mind. (I'm not suggesting this is OK. Just an observation about the platform.)

You have the last 10 years or more of expensive high end tech for pennies on the dollar.

Soundcraft makes decent mic preamps and converters. Professional grade for sure. Not "boutique" or anything like Apogee or Prism. That board is not a $1000/channel level device. (And again, you don't need to chase a $$$$ like that nowadays!)

That M-Audio unit you mentioned looks like their 2nd generation. Their 1st gen products were the ones people complained about the analog stages. You might find that it's not a great fit for live sound... but you aren't doing that! Worst is you might have to keep rolling with an older OS (because they aren't around to update drivers anymore).

The XR-18 mentioned would get you 16 Midas mic preamps in an interface for $500. It's the watered down version of the X32. The digital board integrated in that unit would be more than enough for your monitoring/tracking/overdubbing needs. (It's made to fully run live sound.)
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 09:18 AM   #53
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default whats on craigs list

a lot of cheap interfaces
all 8 channels

M-Audio Model Fast Track Ultra 8R USB 2.0 $200cdn

Tascam US-1641 USB2.0 Audio MIDI Interface $300cdn (10 input)

TASCAM US-1800 16-in, 4-out, 24-bit 260cdn

Behringer UMC1820 U-Phoria 18x20 500cdn

Behringer ADAT Audio interface 8 inputs 8 outputs MIDAS preamplifier ULTRAGAIN $460 cdn


i would still have to buy a adat breakout box w anouther 8 channels at some point
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 02:14 PM   #54
numberthirty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 492
Default

While I don't just want to be one big wet blanket...

Where is the case for really doing any of this before the players are in place, and that it works on that level?

Let's say that there is a drummer who will eventually be a really fussy time drain about having her/his monitoring mix "Just So..."

Putting the time into know the involved players on that level seems way more sensible than what's been happening in this thread so far.
numberthirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 02:56 PM   #55
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default still waiting

for the craigslist call back


well im just asking questions,

ie like putting a budget together
and the type of band has a lot to do with whats possible

the thing is the music totally gets influenced by the way its recorded

if your a bassist dont wait for the perfect band
find a drummer you can play with and start jamming/recording

i mean if the only music im going to be able to make production music in a rehearsal studio i might as well just save my money and pay their rates

maybe you dont realize how long its going to be untill there are shows
again,...how are you going to stay active and prepare for the future...

you know i thought i could do it all in reaper
programme everything and just sing/play guitar

didnt work out,..try something new
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 03:56 PM   #56
numberthirty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 492
Default

Sure...

Just feels like any "How..." elements are going to need to take a backseat to players if you are set on other players being a part of the picture.
numberthirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 04:54 PM   #57
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default so yea i put the cart before the horse

well the whole question is howdo i create a performance good enough (that the equipment im using will caputure) that it will get attention

i mean i have some concepts ,..but they have to be "marketable"

i know one drummer whos 150$ an hour...you dont even have to tell him what the song is,..hell just make it up as he goes along
hes been on over 180 albums

a little out of my budget though

a lockout room would cost $450 a month

you see how one thing leads to anouther but everythings interconected

i mean my goal right now is just to find a drummer who can play funk/groove
ie..get a rythm secti8on together people will want to dance to
some organ.....
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 07:12 PM   #58
numberthirty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 492
Default

Again...

While I don't really want to be a huge wet blanket?

What I'm hearing is "What I've Got Is Not Even Finished Ideas..."

If that is actually the case?

There have got to be some folks teaching drums/bass in a music store nearby(Unless you are out in the Klondike...) that are probably more than up to the task of playing funk/groove.
numberthirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 06:51 AM   #59
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default no,..i just need musicians and a way to produce the tracks

heres the general idea

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cg5...ew?usp=sharing

still looking for a funky organ
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 07:24 AM   #60
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

If you're thinking of approaching writing and recording with entrepreneurial goals, I'd recommend just about anything else!

If you are after recording music that makes you happy first and then maybe doing something with it...
If you wanted the ability to magically capture raw live playing/jamming/improvising/writing and have full multitracks to work with for everything you ever do, an audio interface is a big building block to get you there. It's only a few hundred dollars nowadays. 40 years ago you would have had to invest $100,000 or more for a 2" tape deck and spend up to $80/minute for tape. An interface and hard drive space is free compared to that! Hell, throw in the computer purchase and it's still free compared to the past!

So, you know, if that appeals to you, this should be more of a "Holy shit I can do that for only a few hundred?!" mind blown kind of thing.

On the other hand, if you're more aloof with sound, fidelity, recording everything you do, and that kind of vibe and more into composition. Write, practice, rehearse. Hire the session players. Zero interest in jamming or recording stuff along the way. Then hiring a studio might be a better choice.

Trying to paint extremes there.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 07:49 AM   #61
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default im a producer ;i like making music other people like

its not a "sell out"..
its pretty simple ,..i play really deep bass grooves
that go well with hiphop and funk drum beats

i mean thats what clubs want

the thing is if i can produce songs in the studio

i can try for placements
which you need if your going to make a $$

music a business like anything else I think you know that
but this is my first business in production or im stupid about technical things

the truth is i just got screwed on my last soundcard
i payed 600 for it
and now i dont have the budget for any thing decent

i mean obviously ill have to start out just
jamming ,...but anouther option is to put the parts together
in the daw ,..then try to find the best players i can to jam on the concept,..then edit the parts together and do overdubs in the daw to make a song
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:07 AM   #62
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
i mean obviously ill have to start out just
jamming ,...but anouther option is to put the parts together
in the daw ,..then try to find the best players i can to jam on the concept,..then edit the parts together and do overdubs in the daw to make a song
If you think you're hungry for that, that's exactly the kind of thing you can get away with nowadays! Take control of everything. Catch those magical moments. Work on your own time.

Sorry to hear about the errant purchase!
There's a popular notion that pci connecting audio interfaces are inherently better than USB connecting or other. And that's flat out not true! There might be a couple high end pci interfaces offering lower latency than average or something. There are also ultra cheap pci card interfaces out there! Probably more of the latter than the former. (Remember those dictation quality Sound Blasticator cards?)

You'll find the most options among the USB connecting interfaces. The thunderbolt connecting interfaces will offer the lowest latency... again though, that only applies if you are running live sound. Just FYI to help keep the options straight.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:16 AM   #63
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default Stage Box interface for sale

i think i should save up for this

Midas DL16 Digital Mixing Stage Box 1000 usd
16 xlr in....8 out + adat out (to computer?)
https://cosmomusic.ca/product_images...g?c=1604676094
motu has soething similer for 2200 usd
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:35 AM   #64
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
i think i should save up for this

Midas DL16 Digital Mixing Stage Box 1000 usd
16 xlr in....8 out + adat out (to computer?)
https://cosmomusic.ca/product_images...g?c=1604676094
motu has soething similer for 2200 usd
Just looking this up quick...

I can't tell if it includes a USB audio interface or not. I suspect not. If you didn't already have an X32 or M32 that you wanted expansion for, you'd need at least an audio interface with ADAT inputs.

(I see that USB port on the back... No mention of "audio interface" or how many channels though. Assume it's for firmware updates unless someone comes out and states this is a USB audio interface integrated into the unit.)
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:43 AM   #65
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default they make it confusing deliberately?

see these are the reasons i need to ask questions
i can barely decifer the specs at all

thanks for your help serr


!@#@$ i think both those boxes need to run through a mixer
or at least an interface w usb

what a waste of a good product
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:58 AM   #66
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Again, thinking out loud...

The Behringer/Midas X32 goes for $2000 new.
This Midas/Midas DL16 version of the expansion box sells for $800?
And they don't mention an integrated USB audio interface as a bullet point?

It's probably literally 'only' an expansion box. But you could certainly use it as a stand alone mic preamp + ADC with ADAT output. (Which they DO mention.)

It's very likely exactly that.

You can maybe snipe a X32 for $1000 on Ebay. They're scarce right now and in demand though. Good f'in luck right now with that one!

And it's probably more dedicated digital mixing system that you're interested in paying for right now anyway.

The XR18 is the "baby X32". This is the cheapened version. It runs different software than the X32 and something's wrong with it that leads to high latency in the wireless communication (even when you use your own router). But if you weren't as interested in the live sound capabilities, it's 16 Midas mic preamps in a USB interface with another 8 channels of output for $600 give or take. The built in mixing system would be more than fine for a rehearsal/jamming studio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
!@#@$ i think both those boxes need to run through a mixer
or at least an interface w usb

what a waste of a good product
Frankly, you have a very skewed understanding of what stuff like this costs! 16 Midas mic preamps and 16 channels of quality DAC like that could very easily have another zero or two to the left of the decimal point. Just saying'
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 09:08 AM   #67
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default 00ps wrong product

this has usb out
Presonus STUDIOLIVE 16R 18-input, 16-channel Series III Stage Box & Rack Mixer 1500$cdn

https://images.static-thomann.de/pic...879017_800.jpg

https://images.static-thomann.de/pic...879007_800.jpg

should only take 3-5 mnths to pay for

*this seems to just be a rack mixer??
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 09:20 AM   #68
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 6,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
16 channels of quality DAC like that could very easily have another zero or two to the left of the decimal point. Just saying'
I have about $500US including tax and shipping for my 16 channels of Midas preamps.

Long before getting any of that, I was recording just fine with other people using two M-Audio Delta 2496 cards for a whopping 4 channels. I'd compose most of the song on my own then bring in other players to add their parts. Same way I do it now, even though I *could* record a whole band live to separate tracks in one take.

My philosophy is to make music first, and worry about gear last. If all my stuff were suddenly taken away from me, I'd still make music using whatever I had to work with. Give me a couple trash can lids and some plastic buckets and I'll make music with them.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 09:22 AM   #69
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

They clearly mention using it as a USB audio interface to record from.

If I was looking for an audio interface with 16 mic preamps first and foremost and not looking for a system to also run live sound with, I'd probably grab the XR-18 first. 16 Midas mic pres and 8 line outputs for $600. (Honestly, the integrated mixing system would rock it in a rehearsal studio setting.)
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 09:48 AM   #70
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default

dont you need an i pad to run that?


i think this is rock solid start
MOTU 8pre USB 16x12 USB2 Audio Interface $700cnd

https://www.soundpro.com/item/102299
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 09:59 AM   #71
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
dont you need an i pad to run that?
Maybe... (Just like the X32 or the Midas/Midas versions.) So... add another $100.
They DO have an android version of their OSC app. I don't know what's "2nd class" about using an Android tablet.

Wait though... I suspect they have a normal (non mobile) app too. Worth looking that up. If you were not roaming running a live stage, you wouldn't need a tablet.
Edit: They have a normal non-mobile app.
No tablet required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
i think this is rock solid start
MOTU 8pre USB 16x12 USB2 Audio Interface $700cnd

https://www.soundpro.com/item/102299
I've had good luck with MOTU.
It has the firewire I/O you said you were looking for too. (I think they have a new revision that switched to USB 2.0. Probably a moot point especially since running live sound is not on your agenda. Assuming the firewire would have lower latency potential.)
You can snipe those for $300 give or take on Ebay.

Last edited by serr; 06-23-2021 at 10:04 AM.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 11:01 AM   #72
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default still the best deal

TASCAM US-16X08 16-In/8-Out Usb Audio & Midi Interface
$400cdn
im sure it doesnt have direct monitoring though
that could be a problem
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 01:46 PM   #73
numberthirty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 492
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonin View Post
TASCAM US-16X08 16-In/8-Out Usb Audio & Midi Interface
$400cdn
im sure it doesnt have direct monitoring though
that could be a problem
See this thread -

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-direct-...-m3465514.aspx
numberthirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2021, 07:00 AM   #74
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default ive made a decision

but
it might be controversial...

anyway i talked with my engineer and he found an interface and breakout box for 2k cdn

so ill just have to use rehersal spaces untill i can save the $$$

back to square 1
anyone know a funky drummer?!?
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2021, 01:37 PM   #75
Rhonin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 250
Default 8 channel interface + 8 channel breakout box

Arturia
AudioFuse 8Pre Dual Mode Audio Interface and ADAT Expander

https://www.long-mcquade.com/files/1...d3beefc2a2.jpg

Audient
ASP800 8-Channel Microphone Preamp

https://www.long-mcquade.com/files/9...a8bf9df2ff.png

no bells and whistles some dsps seem solid
and i can get financing
total 2k cnd
Rhonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.