02-02-2021, 04:07 AM | #1 | |
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Let's make wine-bridging easy in REAPER
Hi guys,
I did the unforgivable and posted a feature request in the latest pre-release thread. I think that with just a little help from the developers we could make wine-bridging "feel" native in REAPER. It would be awesome if different wine-bridge setups could then be installed through ReaPack. I'm sure this would help a few people considering Linux for music production make the jump. Quote:
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02-03-2021, 04:09 PM | #2 |
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I use a few terminal commands to run reaper in linux,
not really rocket science. qjackctl .59/reaper a2jmidid -j default wine reaper.exe (follows a link to drive_c/users) The linvst commands I start from a click in pcmanfm filemanager, when needed for a new plugin. If things were much easier, how would new linux users ever learn how things work? But progress is progress, until it isn't. Who knows where just the excersize of creating your idea might lead in the long run? Could be awesome... |
02-03-2021, 04:49 PM | #3 | |
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I also think this could be something similar to the way Reaper treats video decoding now. You choose from several different decoders and pick the one you want in the Reaper prefs, but the Reaper devs aren't responsible for every single plugin working. That is up to the bridge maintainers. With all the work being done lately with YA-Bridge and real-time Wine optimizations, it is really exciting to see where this goes and I think your proposal would be another big step. Again, ultimately, I would love to see this adopted similar to the video engine decoder and part of the Reaper prefs but having a reapack option would be a great start. |
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02-03-2021, 04:55 PM | #4 | |
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As long as you are willing to support it indefinitely, I think it can be a good thing. I still probably will not use any bridging, but I'm just thinking about other new Linux users. If you go out of your way to make something easier for people but then abandon it, it can make things worse in the long run. I have found my share of broken tools, scripts, plugins since I have started using Linux a couple years ago. A couple friends of mine had similar experiences and they weren't as patient as I was, so it ended up just frustrating them more trying to figure out how to configure the OS to do what they want.
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Not that I see an easy solution anyway, but I don't think something like this would help accomplish that sort of thing. |
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02-03-2021, 05:25 PM | #5 |
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I stopped buying Windows plugins when I switched to Linux, and since switching I've spent close to three hundred bucks on native Linux plugins. I'm voting with my wallet. If plugin developers want any of my money, they will need to support Linux natively. Period.
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02-03-2021, 06:06 PM | #6 |
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Native linux would always be more stable and faster. In the end, companies that move first to Linux will succeed. The bridge is great solution meanwhile to show them that more users are on Linux and asking for the native plugin too.
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02-03-2021, 06:22 PM | #7 |
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There are some semantics from the audio marketing departments.
Many of the available linux products are cross-platform, and I doubt a software that was native-linux only could be considered a career financial success in terms of comparative hourly earnings for the coder(s). We are dozens and hundreds that spend money on cross-platform linux software, I think thousands are needed to make a commercial native-linux-only product a career choice. 3000 coding hours a year @ $40 per hour = $120,000 = 2000 sales @ $60 each We are far below 2000. Cut the numbers in half, and we are still far below. Cut in half yet again, and maybe break even, if the product is world-class, so might as well deliver pizzas, as the family heads out the door for greener pastures. New roads and bridges come before new towns. aka infrastructure. A better use of man-hours, could be commercial maintenance of a pro quality linux infrastructure sound system that wasn't a stew of leftovers, not divided between jackd, alsa and pulse, such that a new linux user could hear and record instrument, daw, web-browser, and media-player outputs without a ratsnest of config files, plugins, and conflicting dependencies. We're lucky things work as well as they do. And probably a lot of sacrificial coding is under the hood. Hope it's worth it as time goes on. I can hear the shrieking now, if AVLinux or Ubuntu Studio cost $60 with periodic paid updates... |
02-03-2021, 06:48 PM | #8 | |
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and with little improvement for daily use. Speed is not a big problem. Expecting mac/win users to leave their trainwrecks for a locomotive with nobody at the controls, isn't a promising future. In the short-term, a tool for transparent gathering of all plugins on a system, such that a user or daw can find and use them, would be nice, but what follows then needs attention to be competitive with mac/win. I doubt many linux devs care about that competition. I love using linux, just trying to be a realist. |
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02-03-2021, 06:52 PM | #9 |
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I'm here in the Linux subforum because I'm trying to move to Linux... don't discourage me hehe
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02-03-2021, 08:01 PM | #10 | |
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Seriously though, just do it. Windows and Mac are garbage. ON TO THE FUTURE! Anyway it's wishful thinking that a tool of this nature--as welcome as it might be--will make so many people switch to Linux that developers just decide to make Linux VST plugins...especially after everyone demonstrates the reason they switched to Linux is that they didn't need Linux VST versions. This might help in that regard, somewhat, if more people choose Linux. I just wouldn't hold my breath or take bets on when it's going to happen. Quote:
My point, I guess: this tool could be welcome for people switching to Linux, who still want to use Windows VST plugins. I wouldn't look at it as more than that, though. Side note to 4duhwinnn: my experience with Linux contradicts yours. I've found it becoming more stable and user friendly, over the last 2 years. There have been periods of instability, but that's been partially due to my using a very up-to-date distro with a fresh RT kernel (and sometimes forgetting to use the RT module for my Nvidia GPU lol). Also the fact I've kept changing my system configuration so much, doing far more than an average user would, to the point of knowing I'm probably going to break something. Last edited by JamesPeters; 02-03-2021 at 08:11 PM. |
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02-03-2021, 08:27 PM | #11 | |
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As it sits right now, I have to use Windows plugins. I have to use Kontakt. I don't have a choice. All the major sample libraries I use in my day job require it. I get other users wanting to only use native. I would like to as well, but I can't and there are a lot of people like me that would maybe consider Linux if it became a viable option for them. We need to be more welcoming of people wanting to switch and more understanding of their requirements. Once we have more users, then there's a larger community of people effecting change. And then in the long run we get better tools in Linux. Simple as that. |
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02-03-2021, 09:12 PM | #12 |
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Anyway, whatever. Sorry to hijack this so much, FeedTheCat. I'm sure something like this would be appreciated. Will it force developers to suddenly start churning out Linux VST immediately? I guess that remains to be seen.
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02-03-2021, 09:28 PM | #13 | |
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Audio plugins are another thing, and that's where I've spent some money. |
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02-03-2021, 09:38 PM | #14 |
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At the risk of sounding redundant, I agree with everyone.
"I'm voting with my wallet" - Big time! That's what gets developer's attention, whether my vote changes the world or not, I'm gonna vote! "But if people are only using Windows VST plugins in Linux and accepting it, where is the incentive for them to make Linux VST plugins." Same as voting with my wallet. "More users = more ability to effect change... We need to be more welcoming of people wanting to switch and more understanding of their requirements. Once we have more users, then there's a larger community of people effecting change. And then in the long run we get better tools in Linux. Simple as that." Agreed - More users = more people voting... @FeedTheCat: I'm someone who uses Carla to run LV2 plugins, but not Wine. In the past, I actually compiled some LV2 and VST2 plugins from source (although I promised myself I wouldn't do that anymore). I tried setting Wine up about a year ago and ran into a dead end, got frustrated, and haven't tried again. I would *really* welcome something like what you are proposing. Thank you all for being here and helping to create this Linux community in the Reaper forums! |
02-05-2021, 05:27 PM | #15 |
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Wine deadends often are a result a distro's supplied wine being blended
with a new winehq.org variant of wine-stable or wine-staging, which won't end well. Usually the distro wine will need to be completely removed by commands or a package manager like synaptic, before installing a wine from winehq. The removal often pulls out dependencies the musician relies on, and the musician aborts the removal. (the dependencies can be reinstall as desired) AVLinux comes with a good wine-staging version ready to go, so you could test that painlessly from a bootable dvd or usbstick/sd-card. A second deadend may be wineasio, which may need to be added from a package downoad site, and manually placed where wine will find it, and then run the register commands: wine64 regsvr32 wineasio.dll wine regsvr32 wineasio.dll Which brings up another possible issue, needing to install your distro's 32 bit compatability dependencies. The linux reaper with linvst or yabridge handling plugins wrapping is almost as win-vst ready as the win-reaper under wine, and won't need wineasio itself. Reaper is so cool, my drink is freezing over, so bye for now... |
02-05-2021, 07:47 PM | #16 |
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Last time I looked, Linux had around 1.8% of the market.
The amount of Linux daw users would be much less than that. That's basically why companies like Native Instruments don't port to Linux. If someone does try to use Windows vst's on Linux then there is only one way to do it and that's through Wine. I think Wine has improved but it still has missing parts. Native Access wouldn't run for years until I submitted a patch to Wine and I've submitted other patches to wine as well. Wine needs more patches for vst based problems from programmers that know what the problems are. Things like d2d1 etc. I asked them when they were going to add some Factory features to d2d1 and they said in about a year and it never happened, which is understandable because they have a lot to work on. Wine is getting gaming based patches at the moment from what I can tell, but some of those might benefit vst and some might not. As for wine plugin bridging stopping or discouraging native plugins, I can't see it, because native plugins will win out over bridged plugins. Who is going to run bridged Windows versions of u-he or TAL plugins when there are native versions available. The main thing stopping or discouraging native plugins from the major players is basically Linux's small market share imo. It's pretty easy for a lot of people to just buy a Arm based Mac Laptop or a Windows laptop etc and go nowhere near Linux. Last edited by osxmidi; 02-05-2021 at 11:29 PM. |
02-05-2021, 07:59 PM | #17 |
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Yes, Reaper is very cool
By the time I was 29, I had drank enough for 3 or 4 lifetimes. Now the strongest thing I drink is coffee - but I digress... I remember installing the 32 bit deps, but maybe not wineasio. I'm not too excited about digging into a Wine install again right now, but I'm following this thread with interest. I *know* I started out not knowing what to do initially, I didn't even have the C directory at first (I don't remember the details), but you're probably spot on that there are some winHQ/wine from Ubuntu issues happening. I was so proud when installing it from "sudo apt-get install" worked - after the wineHQ installation consistently failed to complete... At some point I will build a new machine, I'll ask for help in setting up Wine correctly at that point. |
02-06-2021, 05:49 AM | #18 |
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Hi guys, thanks for the answers. I don't really want to get into the ethics of using wine. I think its safe to say that in the foreseeable future a lot of Linux DAW users (if not most of them) will be using wine to bridge Windows plugins. And thanks to the amazing work of people like osxmidi and robbert-vdh this is easier than ever before.
I had a very simple idea. If the devs give us a "pre-vst-scan callback" (read first post), which in my estimation should be quite easy for them to add, we could then achieve two things for Linux REAPER. 1. A native "feel" of wine-bridges (integration into REAPER) You can make REAPER automatically call "yabridge sync" or "linvstconvert" whenever necessary. Set up a callback-script once, then forget about it. Even for advanced Linux users this would be a welcome addition. Install a Windows vst with wine, press F5 in the REAPER FX-browser, get on with your life... I think it's highly unlikely that REAPER will ever support wine-bridging natively (or any other DAW for that matter, as wine is very unstable). This callback would allow us to seamlessly integrate wine-bridges into REAPER (without further help from the devs). 2. ReaPack packages for Linux novices Imo it currently makes little sense to have a wine-bridging solution in ReaPack. With this callback script that would change. We could create simple packages that set it up for the user. The packages could also do other useful stuff to get you started with wine-bridging. For example checking if wine is installed, that the bridge is set-up correctly (or even install the bridge), maybe add "$HOME/.wine/drive_c/Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins" to REAPERs plugin path etc. Nothing complicated that will make Kontakt work out of the box, but at least it would be possible to run plugins like Valhalla & Fabfilter without ever opening a terminal. And terminal-phobia is a real thing, hehe
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10-26-2021, 11:24 AM | #19 |
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When I read some of these comments, I feel like Linux users don't actually WANT more linux users. They like feeling part of an elite group of people who understand how their OS works at a level most people would rather avoid.
Windows drives me crazy, and if I thought Linux could do what I want while driving me crazy LESS, (and still allowing my existing hardware at existing or lower latencies) I'd sure like to use it. But I am straight-up dependent on existing Windows VSTs. Native Instruments, particularly. I'm just not ready to jettison 20 years of sound design work for an OS, any OS! I'm also dependent on RME interfaces, and I'm not sure how they work with Linux. But I am comfortable with dual-booting, I have checked out Linux installs before, I know there are knowlegable, helpful people here on these forums... but anything at all that would speed up what would be a huge porting project would be welcome to me, and I'd imagine, others like me. |
10-26-2021, 01:28 PM | #20 |
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From Post #11:
"We need to be more welcoming of people wanting to switch and more understanding of their requirements. Once we have more users, then there's a larger community of people effecting change. And then in the long run we get better tools in Linux. Simple as that." This Reaper for Linux forum is, IMHO, a very welcoming and supportive community. If you ask for opinions, look out - you may get more than what you wanted. But if you ask for help, the folks around here are knowledgeable, experienced, want to help you succeed, and have a pretty good sense of humor, too. Yeah, we *all* want more Linux users. |
10-26-2021, 02:18 PM | #21 |
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Many RME interfaces work well, but it is sad there is no official support from RME.
If anyone reading this is thinking about switcing to Linux... go and try! Once you try Linux, there is no going back. Last edited by heda; 10-26-2021 at 02:23 PM. |
10-26-2021, 02:42 PM | #22 |
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I'd argue that point. As soon as you need one of the dozens of pieces of software that haven't been ported, you have to go back...
I can't imagine not at least dual-booting. Who can use only linux? I guess folks coming from chrome who can do everything they need from the browser? I'm sure I could get up to 70% of my non-music work done in linux, and maybe more if I got more familiar with wine. I'm game to give it another go, but I'm going to have to check for a lot of compatibility first. Is there a forum somewhere that discusses RME compatibility? Searching the whole web for compatibility of NI and linux turned up little more than this forum. Before that, I found many forums saying Native Access wouldn't run under WINE... here it is casually mentioned that that is fixed, but I haven't found anything else yet. |
10-26-2021, 03:12 PM | #23 |
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TBH, in direct response to the OP, with Yabridge, I don't think it could be much simpler.
Install the VST, run yabridgectl sync (assuming you have setup up Yabridge to the developer default) - done! And it all just works with Reaper. |
10-26-2021, 05:40 PM | #24 |
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What plugins can you use with Linux?
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=244854 Older RME pci cards work (I think Jack Winter uses them), and the RME Babyface Pro is supported in the Linux kernal https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...E-Babyface-Pro Behringer *officially* supports Linux on pretty much all of their interfaces. Lots of people around here do lots of music with Linux. You can try it, too - or not... It's your call, do what you want. |
10-27-2021, 08:14 AM | #25 | |
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What I often fund is incomplete tutorials that assume that you already know some basic commands, I could not execute half of what was taught in many tutorials. After only 2 years a lot of stuff became more user friendly also when you have a grasp of what some of the distros have to offer it makes your life easier by choosing the right one for you. |
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10-27-2021, 08:26 AM | #26 | |
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I spent literally 2 solid weeks learning Puppy linux, my first ever distro, to eventually understand it was a very niche distro and I still knew nothing about Linux lol ! I had fun (kindof) but that was not for music ! Then I discovered LinuxMint.... AAaahaaa!! Angels singing and dancing around my pc !!! True story ! Now I can install everything (Reaper, Wine +fav plugins) from scratch in 15 minutes, on pc I would still be in the process of trying to shut Cortana off. Or worst my last install I had to phone microsoft to give them my product key all the time MS makes my life miserable is better invested in learning Linux to me. Even better I make a snapshot of MXLinux I now have an iso with everything preinstalled: Favorite apps, personal config, background image, Wine, Reaper and a ton of plugins. Install time: 5 minutes on any pc. For the very few times in need to open Win7 these days I'm kinda lost! Last edited by Pinknoise; 10-27-2021 at 08:49 AM. |
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11-03-2021, 03:35 PM | #27 | |
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I have successfully installed several distros like Ubuntu Studio & AVLinux & they all worked fine with my RME Babyface etc., etc., but when I tried to install WINE (with a view to adding Yabridge) I failed dismally every time. For the time being I am no longer seriously looking to convert to Linux, which is a real shame, as I like Linux as an operating system, just can`t do without my large library of Windows VST plugins. Mostly VSTis of course.
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11-03-2021, 03:36 PM | #28 | |
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11-03-2021, 09:20 PM | #29 | |
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To invoke the default wine-staging 6.2, type winecfg in a terminal, and a new .wine folder will be created in your /home/you folder, then install yabridge, by unpacking it's archive, which content should go two places: .local/share/yabridge and all that folder content also to /usr/bin (without creating a specific yabridge folder, just the content.) Updating that wine release (wine-staging 6.2) has been trouble, as many of the subsequent wine releases had big problems with linux audio. I hope you'll try yabridge 3.6 in a fresh install of default avlinux with it's wine 6.2 ...you can install that on an external usb drive without risking your main system. I think you'll like the success rate of non-dongled windows plugins. And wineasio is also setup by default in that avlinux, so the windows reaper can be used as well as the linux reaper, as may be needed in some cases. (I have not had much success fully updating wineasio to later wine versions.) Cheers Last edited by 4duhwinnn; 11-03-2021 at 09:29 PM. |
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11-04-2021, 01:37 AM | #30 |
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yabridge built in
If it were possible to make system calls from reascripts then i think it would even just be nice to have a yabridgectl sync script linked to f5 in the fx window and automatically refresh on reaper start. yabridge honestly makes bridged vsts feel very native and i have even had better experience with some of the bridged windows versions than native linux versions of the same plugins.
I think if making plugin bridging easier encourages devs to at the very leas make sure their windows builds run fine in wine then that is also not the end of the world. It will still mean more plugins on linux and it would make switching to linux much easier. I have switched to linux fulltime fairly recently but other than the headache of setting up jack (which is now much easier with pipewire) i wouldn't say it's any more complicated than windows. installing plugins is still just copying the dll or so to the right directory and refreshing (yabridge sync for bridged plugins) I would still say my dream is that reaper would support windows bridging vsts the same way it supports bridging of 32 bit vsts. having that built in would be revolutionary for the linux audio world. PS robbert is great and super helpful and I am glad to see his project (yabridge) making it easier for people to switch. |
11-04-2021, 11:22 AM | #31 | |
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Coming from Windows and having bought VSTis,that feature would have helped me. Therefore, I think, it could help newcomers. By the way, I praise Moddart, Uhe and independent creators supporting native Linux plugins -- I bought them! |
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11-04-2021, 11:53 AM | #32 | |
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A common but wrong idea that I hear about Linux users is that we don't want to pay for software. I have not bought Pianotech (Moddart), but I *have* spent money on Uhe, DiscoDSP, OvertoneDSP, Audio Damage, Harrison, and *many* other devs who offer good quality commercial Linux native plugins. I vote with my wallet |
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11-04-2021, 05:41 PM | #33 | |
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And on Manjaro AUR (or Add Remove) it is sooo easy! Even a dufus like me can do it hahaha! After several discussion with James and Glenn, I realised I did NOT know better, based on years of windows and I followed all the advice from them and Robbert and ran the default installations as per.....no issues! I even got Bluetooth MIDI working on my Manjaro system |
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11-05-2021, 09:01 AM | #34 | |
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Can someone give me the correct terminal line to type to update Yabridge? The Octopi repository still is at version 3.5.2 (yabridge-git and yabridgectl-git) -- unless yabridge bin is for arch linux too? Thanks! |
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11-05-2021, 10:23 AM | #35 | |
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https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_User_Repository |
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11-05-2021, 05:56 PM | #36 | |
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11-14-2021, 07:39 AM | #37 |
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I finally took the easy way out & installed AV Linux MXe & so far it has all worked seamlessly, including WINE etc.
I have only done a live (not installed to hard drive) test so far, but there seems to be very little that I will have to tidy up before I can start using Reaper (included in the Distro) in earnest, plus at least some of my windows plugins. Hooray!
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11-14-2021, 05:01 PM | #38 | |
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I would recommend only installing one or two Windows plugins to start with, so you can get Yabridge setup and functioning. Once you have Yabridge working, it's just a matter of installing additional Windows plugins, and lastly using the Sync function in Yabridge to link up the rest of the plugins. |
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11-15-2021, 06:14 AM | #39 | |
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I have a very big amount of Win VSTs working with Yabridge and I'm very happy with the results. |
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11-16-2021, 09:44 AM | #40 | |
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