Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Try this and see if it works AND you can bank successfully with ScroillLink on.

Can bank sucessfully again, but now it doesn't bank automatically after the track visibility changes.

It feels like a timing thing, a kind of race error, because if I hit recall (for the snapshot) a second time (after the track visibility and selection have been restored by the first press) it banks.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Can bank sucessfully again, but now it doesn't bank automatically after the track visibility changes.

It feels like a timing thing, a kind of race error, because if I hit recall (for the snapshot) a second time (after the track visibility and selection have been restored by the first press) it banks.

Okay, let's mark it as a known bug / limitation for now.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Okay, let's mark it as a known bug / limitation for now.

Ok How are the VCAs going?

[MalcolmG]

I just watched a new Kenny video on Audition Mode in Reaper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGVO0AuIyjw

I'd not seen this before, and I kinda like it. Basically, hold the Alt key on your (computer) keyboard while adjusting a track fader, FX param, etc with your mouse. If you don't like how it sounds, keep holding Alt down until after you let go of the fader and it'll pop back to where it was before you touched it. If you do like it, let go of Alt first and then the changes will stay.


Makes me wonder how this might apply to CSI. Not sure it does, as it seems to treat the changes between the mousedown and mouseup as a single unit that it rolls back, whereas moving a fader on a surface is possibly treated as a whole bunch of changes, so best case it probably only rolls back the very last, small change.


Thoughts?

[WaveTrans]

Originally Posted by MalcolmG

I just watched a new Kenny video on Audition Mode in Reaper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGVO0AuIyjw

I'd not seen this before, and I kinda like it. Basically, hold the Alt key on your (computer) keyboard while adjusting a track fader, FX param, etc with your mouse. If you don't like how it sounds, keep holding Alt down until after you let go of the fader and it'll pop back to where it was before you touched it. If you do like it, let go of Alt first and then the changes will stay.


Makes me wonder how this might apply to CSI. Not sure it does, as it seems to treat the changes between the mousedown and mouseup as a single unit that it rolls back, whereas moving a fader on a surface is possibly treated as a whole bunch of changes, so best case it probably only rolls back the very last, small change.


Thoughts?

thanks for linking.
seems brand new.
very interesting.

[airon]

Not sure I posted this yet. Some other folks have done Faderport v2 support, right ?

Here are my files just in case:

https://stash.reaper.fm/38582/CSI_FPv2.zip

The zone file is mostly commented out stuff, and an owner of the Faderport v2 should put something better together, but the MST should be accurate according to the documentation.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Okay, let's mark it as a known bug / limitation for now.

Geoff or Mixmonkey, havne't been following the ForceScrollLink thing, but if it looks like it's going to stick around, would you mind providing a quick description of the use-case for it and provide an example (it's a CSI action right)? I'll add it to the Wiki once I understand what it is/does/how to use it.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Geoff or Mixmonkey, havne't been following the ForceScrollLink thing, but if it looks like it's going to stick around, would you mind providing a quick description of the use-case for it and provide an example (it's a CSI action right)? I'll add it to the Wiki once I understand what it is/does/how to use it.

Will do, also have to add couple more -- see below

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Primitive VCA support:

Zone "Buttons|"
	someButton		ToggleVCAMode
ZoneEnd

Zone "Channel|"
        Alt+Select|		TrackToggleVCASpill
ZoneEnd

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Geoff or Mixmonkey, havne't been following the ForceScrollLink thing, but if it looks like it's going to stick around, would you mind providing a quick description of the use-case for it and provide an example (it's a CSI action right)? I'll add it to the Wiki once I understand what it is/does/how to use it.

Behaviour is closely related to:

ToggleScrollLink

...except instead of toggling the scroll link behaviour, it forces the surface(s) to bank to the selected track if it is not currently visible.

The predominant use case for it is where a different track is selected by a Reaper Action (usually accompanying a track visibility change) and the surface(s) don't bank automatically to the newly selected track.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Primitive VCA support:

Zone "Buttons|"
	someButton		ToggleVCAMode
ZoneEnd

Zone "Channel|"
        Alt+Select|		TrackToggleVCASpill
ZoneEnd

This is working nicely here! Excellent stuff Geoff!

Am I correct in understanding that the VCA slaves only spill when VCA mode is active?

I like the way it remembers the spill status of the VCA masters when you leave and re-enter VCA mode.

ForceScrollLink is useful here too. If you enter VCA mode, spill a VCA and select a track that wouldn't have been visible before you entered VCA mode, it won't be scrolled to when you exit VCA mode. Then you push ForceScrollLink and bank to the selected track..

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Am I correct in understanding that the VCA slaves only spill when VCA mode is active?

It's very rough right now, I'm not sure as to correct behaviour for most people -- should VCA masters show in regular mode, etc.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I like the way it remembers the spill status of the VCA masters when you leave and re-enter VCA mode.

ForceScrollLink is useful here too. If you enter VCA mode, spill a VCA and select a track that wouldn't have been visible before you entered VCA mode, it won't be scrolled to when you exit VCA mode. Then you push ForceScrollLink and bank to the selected track..

Good stuff, as stated above this feature has a ways to go, any and all ideas welcomed as usual.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

It's very rough right now, I'm not sure as to correct behaviour for most people -- should VCA masters show in regular mode, etc.

It might be rough, but it's pretty effective!

I usually end up with the whole mix controlled via VCAs (drums, bass,keys etc) There aren't any tracks that aren't part of a VCA group and then all those VCA groups are in turn are assigned to a VCA group as well.

Having all the masters visibility solo on the surface (regardless of where they are positioned in the MCP) is great!

Folks might want to be able to just vis-solo a single VCA master on the surface, automatically spilt (this is ProTools) and then return to the same place in the mixer. Which is where the scroll issue will come up again.

Good stuff, as stated above this feature has a ways to go, any and all ideas welcomed as usual.

A slight mod to ForceScrollLink would be good. Change it so that the selected track is ALWAYS placed on the offset designated channel, regardless of whether it is currently visible on the surface or not (we already have the 'or not' bit) Maybe ask Justin and Schwa to look at csurf updating to make it obsolete

If the spill paradigm could be extended to show the receives of tracks with sends, it would be awesome! (that would probably be vis-solo only)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

It might be rough, but it's pretty effective!

I usually end up with the whole mix controlled via VCAs (drums, bass,keys etc) There aren't any tracks that aren't part of a VCA group and then all those VCA groups are in turn are assigned to a VCA group as well.

Having all the masters visibility solo on the surface (regardless of where they are positioned in the MCP) is great!

Folks might want to be able to just vis-solo a single VCA master on the surface, automatically spilt (this is ProTools) and then return to the same place in the mixer. Which is where the scroll issue will come up again.




A slight mod to ForceScrollLink would be good. Change it so that the selected track is ALWAYS placed on the offset designated channel, regardless of whether it is currently visible on the surface or not (we already have the 'or not' bit) Maybe ask Justin and Schwa to look at csurf updating to make it obsolete

If the spill paradigm could be extended to show the receives of tracks with sends, it would be awesome! (that would probably be vis-solo only)

Good points all.

Ok, so let's call it good enough to experiment with and move on for now -- I'm sure other folks will chime in as well, once they take it for a test drive

We can then build the real one, glad it's a reasonable starting point

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Good points all.

Ok, so let's call it good enough to experiment with and move on for now -- I'm sure other folks will chime in as well, once they take it for a test drive

We can then build the real one, glad it's a reasonable starting point

Cool Definitely need to play with it for a while.

I found a workaround to get back to the correct position on the surface after hiding/showing large numbers of tracks (ie the surface banks to the track selected before the major visibility change)

@NoFish has a script that allows you to run one action, wait x seconds, then run another. I split the snapshot into two, ran the visibility recall immediately and delayed the selection recall by 0.1s. Seems to work fine, the original set of visible tracks re-appear, then a fraction of a second later both the MCP and the surface scroll/bank.

[TVbene]

Originally Posted by TVbene

Can I make a FB_TwoState button go bright if a specific zone is selected? This would really be important, at the moment I have 3 FX zones (trigger, select, delete) and I assigned [...] 3 buttons to a zone each (see below). With LED feedback one would immediately see, what the current mode is.

is this possible?

[airon]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Primitive VCA support:

Zone "Buttons|"
	someButton		ToggleVCAMode
ZoneEnd

Zone "Channel|"
        Alt+Select|		TrackToggleVCASpill
ZoneEnd

Oooh. Shiny.

Will give this a spin.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by TVbene

is this possible?

Not currently, this is kind of a radio button thing -- we decided not to do radio buttons when we added GoZone -- this looks like a reason to think about radio buttons again

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Added Faderport native mode display support -- maybe, flying blind here

Widget FP8Scribble1
	FB_FP8Display 0
WidgetEnd

Widget FP16Scribble2
	FB_FP16Display 1
WidgetEnd

The number is channel number

[WaveTrans]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Yes, that’s exactly what it is. We saw this approach with the X-Touch One. Under the MCU protocol, the single channel surface is seen as 8 channels and the Channel Left and Right buttons change the messages that the unit sends so it can address 8 channels at a time.

Try removing the Channel L/R definitions from the .mst and then monitoring the message sent from the fader to see if it changes when you press Channel L/R.

It might be worth seeing if you can reprogram the unit to avoid this behaviour (I believe the X-Touch One had a separate mode for this, I don’t think the Nano does)

The Nano has 4 modes, MCP, LogicPro, HUT and user defined.
It works with CSI in MCP and LogicPro mode, HUT and UserDefined did not respond.

However, LogicPro did not behave differently when it comes to Tracking and Banking. Same as MCP.

[/Code]
IN <- nano 90 18 7f
IN <- nano 90 18 00
IN <- nano 90 19 7f
IN <- nano 90 19 00
IN <- nano 90 18 7f
IN <- nano 90 18 00
IN <- nano 90 18 7f
IN <- nano 90 18 00
IN <- nano 90 19 7f
IN <- nano 90 19 00
IN <- nano 90 1a 7f
IN <- nano 90 1a 00
IN <- nano 90 1b 7f
IN <- nano 90 1b 00
IN <- nano 90 1c 7f
IN <- nano 90 1c 00
IN <- nano 90 1d 7f
IN <- nano 90 1d 00
IN <- nano 90 1e 7f
IN <- nano 90 1e 00
IN <- nano 90 1f 7f
IN <- nano 90 1f 00
[code]

I took out the .mst definitions for Left/Right key.
then I can switch between codes 18 through to 1f and back again by hitting the Left and Right keys.

When there are .mst definitions, only codes 18 and 19 are designated as ChannelLeft-Right. beyond that numbers, the codes go to 1f and back again. between 1a and 1f there´s no response from the surface except some Fader movements which apparantly do not correspond to channel volumes.

So I´m clueless again.

I think that this used to work at some time past, but this may be only wishful memory

If the Nano is to wierd and stupid, wouldn´t it be possible for CSI to take over?

After all in Sends mode, switching through send channels via LeftRight keys works well.

[airon]

Originally Posted by cjewellstudios

Just reporting back:


Bome Midi Translator pro is awesome! Thanks Funkybot. I'll be buying that when I have the extra dough. Until then it's 20 min at a time

I set up one bank on the twister for csi on a virtual midi port and another bank for lbx smart knobs through another BMT virtual port (this port has to be enabled in Reaper) and it works like a charm. A bonus being that I set up a keyboard shortcut in BMT to bank through the twister banks.

I still have to make the mst up the way I want but for now it looks like I can follow along here and have a working setup. W00T!

Nice idea.

I’ve got a complete bank on two of my MFTs and four on the third just sitting there right now.

How long did it take you to figure out how to split up CC numbers to different midi ports ?

[airon]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Added Faderport native mode display support -- maybe, flying blind here

Widget FP8Scribble1
	FB_FP8Display 0
WidgetEnd

Widget FP16Scribble2
	FB_FP16Display 1
WidgetEnd

The number is channel number

Oh wow. Now I really have something to look forward to when I get up. Just turning in after enjoying some Doom Eternal.

If this works, I’ll be messing around with FX too and naturally updating the Faderport 16 files. When that’s working, I’ll make a version for the Faderport 8. Shouldn’t be a problem now.

Thank you Geoff.

[Eufonic]

probably a noob question, but i have put the dylib in the UserPlugins folder and Control Surface Integrator is not showing up in drop down menu for "Control Surfaces" it's as if the plugin is not being loaded at all. I'm on Yosemite, is that an issue? Should i build the code local?

[Cragster]

Originally Posted by Eufonic

probably a noob question, but i have put the dylib in the UserPlugins folder and Control Surface Integrator is not showing up in drop down menu for "Control Surfaces" it's as if the plugin is not being loaded at all. I'm on Yosemite, is that an issue? Should i build the code local?

try update visualc.thats been an issue.it was for me when i had same problem. and i assume you put csi folder into appdata/roaming/reaper ?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

Oh wow. Now I really have something to look forward to when I get up. Just turning in after enjoying some Doom Eternal.

If this works, I’ll be messing around with FX too and naturally updating the Faderport 16 files. When that’s working, I’ll make a version for the Faderport 8. Shouldn’t be a problem now.

Thank you Geoff.

Let me know what you find.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Eufonic

probably a noob question, but i have put the dylib in the UserPlugins folder and Control Surface Integrator is not showing up in drop down menu for "Control Surfaces" it's as if the plugin is not being loaded at all. I'm on Yosemite, is that an issue? Should i build the code local?

You might need a newer Reaper version.

[airon]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Added Faderport native mode display support -- maybe, flying blind here

Widget FP8Scribble1
	FB_FP8Display 0
WidgetEnd

Widget FP16Scribble2
	FB_FP16Display 1
WidgetEnd

The number is channel number

Not getting info on the strips yet. Here's how I'm using it :

MST (Channel 1)

Widget FPScribble1
	FB_FP16Display 0
WidgetEnd

ZON

Zone "Channel|1-16"
	TrackNavigator
	FPScribble|  TrackNameDisplay
	FPScribble|   TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+FPScribble|   TrackVolumeDisplay

I tried with just the TrackNameDisplay too. So far no cigar ?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

Not getting info on the strips yet. Here's how I'm using it :

MST (Channel 1)

Widget FPScribble1
	FB_FP16Display 0
WidgetEnd

ZON

Zone "Channel|1-16"
	TrackNavigator
	FPScribble|  TrackNameDisplay
	FPScribble|   TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+FPScribble|   TrackVolumeDisplay

I tried with just the TrackNameDisplay too. So far no cigar ?

Try it with just one line in the .zon file, although I don't think that will make a difference...

[airon]

Woho. Hold the phone.

I changed it to this and it works now:

MST

Widget FPScribble1
	FB_FP16Display "0"
WidgetEnd

That did it. I'm getting track touch levels too.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

Woho. Hold the phone.

I changed it to this and it works now:

MST

Widget FPScribble1
	FB_FP16Display "0"
WidgetEnd

That did it. I'm getting track touch levels too.

Awright !!

Guess I should follow my own rules about quotes

Now that it is working, props to @inertia who supplied the FP code he had to the CSI project, thanks @inertia

[Eufonic]

Originally Posted by Cragster

try update visualc.thats been an issue.it was for me when i had same problem. and i assume you put csi folder into appdata/roaming/reaper ?

That would be for Windows, I'm using a MacOS 10.10.5 Yosemite.

[Eufonic]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

You might need a newer Reaper version.

Already up-to date. It's weird that it doesn't load, other dlyb do. Is the code open source?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Eufonic

Already up-to date. It's weird that it doesn't load, other dlyb do. Is the code open source?

Oops, my bad, CSI requires Mac OS 10.12 or later.

Updated the wiki to indicate this.

[Eufonic]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Oops, my bad, CSI requires Mac OS 10.12 or later.

Updated the wiki to indicate this.

Oh, thank you, i dabble with a bit of coding myself and it was driving me nuts.

[Geoff Waddington]

Thinking about Edit Mode a bit.

Now that we have FocusedFXParam, and that reset action, realtime is probably not needed.

Even with that, the page is still too busy.

Maybe split it into basic and advanced ?

Basic for tweaking existing Zones, advanced for creating .zon files.

As usual, discussion more than welcomed.

[airon]

Can the edit window actually do anything right now ?

[nofish]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Basic for tweaking existing Zones, advanced for creating .zon files.

What concerns me I'd certainly welcome if edit mode can be used to create .zon files from scratch (doing mappings in a kind of GUI is just more my thing than creating/editing text files tbh ).

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by airon

Can the edit window actually do anything right now ?

It's good for monitoring inputs/outputs and getting FX Parameter lists for any inserted fx. Other than that, I think big chunks of it don't work at the moment.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Thinking about Edit Mode a bit.

Now that we have FocusedFXParam, and that reset action, realtime is probably not needed.

Even with that, the page is still too busy.

Maybe split it into basic and advanced ?

Basic for tweaking existing Zones, advanced for creating .zon files.

As usual, discussion more than welcomed.

Agree that splitting it up can make sense. Even if it's just two tabs of one window (Edit tab, Create tab). Don't be afraid to make the screen bigger too. Even on my laptop, the current screen can be comfortably expanded in size.

Would personally love it if you could implement a more traditional "Learn" type mode for FX [at least] where I could open a plugin, click Learn, move an FX, move a parameter on a surface, add any modifiers, repeat as necessary, then hit Save to create FX zones.

Editing surface .zon files seems like it could be accomplished easily (select the widget, assign an action - worked for a bit in a prior build of the current Edit window). But I almost see creating surface .zon files as a nightmare for most users, but maybe you're envisioning a way to make it simple and foolproof. If there's no way to avoid the nightmare, maybe leave that text only for now and we just all work together to help you make sure we've got a wide list of available surfaces.

Wholesale creation of a surface.zon is generally a one-time deal, so I would put more effort into making it easy for users to edit these files versus into the creation process. Whereas users may want to create fx.zon's all the time, so that should maybe get priority when it comes to 1) creating from scratch and 2) putting in the extra effort to keep things as user friendly as possible.

My only other advice would be to visually group things logically in a top down, left to right flow. If at any point you want to post mock-ups, even if they're just hand-drawn on a cocktail napkin, I'm sure a few of us would be happy to offer early feedback on what you're thinking. It's easier to offer advice when you're looking at something.

Last thought: I can see a common use-case where users have some random MIDI controller box that they want to map and there's no .mst. Asking a complete newb to create an .mst for each random surface may be a bit much. Would it make sense to create a "General_MIDI_Device.mst" that captures the general MIDI data outputs for CC's 0-127 across channels 1-16? Or is a "Device Learn" also going to be added? Studio One has a window where you hit Learn, move a knob, fader, or press a button, and it creates a surface device for any controller. Then you can assign that device to any plugin, etc. Maybe something similar. Just trying to think of the use-case of "I've got something obscure and I'm not technical" and how to deal with that.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

It's good for monitoring inputs/outputs and getting FX Parameter lists for any inserted fx. Other than that, I think big chunks of it don't work at the moment.

Parameter FX lists aren't working at the moment.