Old 11-29-2009, 04:38 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
The OP in that thread nails it:



I will add that this 'early' problem (glad we have a name for it), is also what screws up the MIDI-Loop-Overdub recording--even with input quantize enabled.
I think that having the independent settings for all these recording options
will save many people a lot of trouble.

Chris: glad it at least works.. don't forget to save it as a track preset for
it to be a lot less painful the next time around

Last edited by EricM; 11-29-2009 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:40 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I will add that this 'early' problem (glad we have a name for it), is also what screws up the MIDI-Loop-Overdub recording--even with input quantize enabled.
I think we have managed to get quite far in this thread, regarding what needs to be done to remedy this problem. I just hope someone important will notice this, and somehow implement ways to help you and others like you jbone1313.

Fortunately I'm in no need for loop recording of midi these days, so in most cases (where I need to overdub) I'll just use midi in quantize. If I need non-quantize I'll just use the method described here.

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Chris: glad it at least works.. don't forget to save it as a track preset for
it to be a lot less painful the next time around
Haha. You bet. Its the first thing I did.

Thing is, I've learned a bunch while doing this. Everything is good for something.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:41 PM   #123
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"The OP in that thread nails it:"

Finish the thread there is a workable solution there
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:52 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I've tried your other suggestion. It doesn't really work, and if it does, its quite fiddly. (No offense, I really appreciate you guys help and patience.)

Are you able to do overdubbed MIDI recording in REAPER at low latencies (~256) whereby the notes (including the first notes) are captured/recorded accurately and consistently?

If so, how?

this is totaly new problem for me,
all the discussion in this OP was, a timing issue,
and the requested solution was a timing one.
no lost notes, nor accurate.

what you said, I'll have to check,
I don't know yet.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:56 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
"The OP in that thread nails it:"

Finish the thread there is a workable solution there
Will do. Had to run out and grab some food.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:57 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
"The OP in that thread nails it:"

Finish the thread there is a workable solution there
Christ. Now I finally see that input and offset option that I have been japping about all the time. I've looked through the options several times, but I've probably just thought that this isnt affecting midi. Why didnt you pop in earlier Fritz?

I'll save the link from that thread, and progress to hopefully nail this by tomorrow. Thanks to you too as well.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:58 PM   #127
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I've tried your other suggestion. It doesn't really work, and if it does, its quite fiddly. (No offense, I really appreciate you guys help and patience.)

Are you able to do overdubbed MIDI recording in REAPER at low latencies (~256) whereby the notes (including the first notes) are captured/recorded accurately and consistently?

If so, how?

what do you mean by ~256, mili seconds or samples ?
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:03 PM   #128
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Christ. Now I finally see that input and offset option that I have been japping about all the time. I've looked through the options several times, but I've probably just thought that this isnt affecting midi. Why didnt you pop in earlier Fritz
Don't hang around here too much as I'm dialed in at this point. Just checking in on the status of things as I'm thinking about upgrading to V3
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:10 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by EricM View Post
I think that having the independent settings for all these recording options
will save many people a lot of trouble.
i think that there should be no need for the end user to concern himself with this stuff. call me crazy.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:13 PM   #130
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Looks like I was watching that thread, and I had actually commented on it. Nice.

I agree; we shouldn't really have to think about all this stuff.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:14 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
Don't hang around here too much as I'm dialed in at this point. Just checking in on the status of things as I'm thinking about upgrading to V3
I sure hope you understood that I were "kidding" . I have high hopes for this one. Just one point, I have about 24 ms ahead on the mid (just by measuring with reapers time ruler, and taking an average). Isnt this quite much, considering you guys are talking about 6 ms and so forth? I have 5.3 ms asio latency, for the record. I just find it strange is all.

You write "Now reaper has for my latency for recording is the amount the card is reporting+6ms-6ms+98 samples. The 98 samples is for my external converters the card has no idea about the latency of."

Where do you factor in these 98 samples? Maybe there is some overly agressive compensation in play, like we talked about early in this thread?

I sure appreciate your input.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:17 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
what do you mean by ~256, mili seconds or samples ?
Samples.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:20 PM   #133
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jbone, see my post above, the question.

anyway, if your problem is lating notes,
you will need something to get them more quickly,
and that couldn't be done with a plug, even with pre-delay,
because that mode, won't get your notes earlier, it just get other track notes
to be late.

anyway this thread was surely effective, for us, and maybe for future users.
we learned something
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:27 PM   #134
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Ok, after reading the other threads and some testing, it seems that enabling "Preserve PDC Delayed Monitoring in Recorded Items" combined with input quantize seems to resolve my issue.

Occasionally, REAPER misses the first note, but its not as bad. Of course, that could be my timing. On the other hand, Ableton always gets my first note. I might be able to get it tighter by adjusting the latency settings.

I'm doing to add this to the other thread I have open about loop recording.

Thanks to all for all of your help and patience.

Last edited by jbone1313; 11-29-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:31 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Chris Ihao View Post

You write "Now reaper has for my latency for recording is the amount the card is reporting+6ms-6ms+98 samples. The 98 samples is for my external converters the card has no idea about the latency of."

Where do you factor in these 98 samples? Maybe there is some overly agressive compensation in play, like we talked about early in this thread?

I sure appreciate your input.
What is happening here is that my firewire interface reports the latency back to Reaper or whatever program for the analog I/O. Since I mainly use a better external converter I have to compensate for the extra latency of the external converter hooked up to the adat ports on my interface.

The 98 samples goes in the input samples box to compensate the audio tracks

The +6ms and the -6ms go in the input and output ms boxes to compensate the midi. These numbers cancel out in the latency calculation so the midi moves without effecting the audio tracks

If you do not have a problem with audio offset, then you could just enter numbers for midi offset but there would have to be a value of + or - something so that audio offset would not be messed up
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:46 PM   #136
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I have to wonder if all of these problems could be avoided if REAPER used the time stampes provided by the MIDI interface differently. (I think REAPER does use the time stamps, but I'm not sure that REAPER uses it to precisely set the location of the recorded/captured note.)

Note that Schwa talks about time stamps in this post: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=34533

It seems like what should be happening (and is not happening), is that REAPER should take the provided time stamp, and use that to place the note on the time line.

I've noticed that MIDI timing is tighter in Ableton Live (notwithstanding the delays Ableton adds to the captured notes to record what is "heard" rather than what is "played").

From the Ableton Live Manual - Chapter 32 - MIDI Fact Sheet

Quote:
Live needs to know exactly when those events were received from the MIDI keyboard. But Live cannot receive them directly they must first be processed by the MIDI interface’s drivers and the operating system.

To solve this problem, the interface drivers give each MIDI event a timestamp as they receive it, and those are passed to Live along with the event so that Live knows exactly when the events should be added to the clip.
RE Recording what is heard vs what is played:
Quote:
When monitoring is enabled during recording, Live adds an additional delay to the timestamp of the event based on the buffer size of your audio hardware. This added latency makes it possible to record events to the clip at the time you hear them  not the time you play them.
I'll bet a lot more folks are using Live for loop recording, and if Live didn't MIDI things in this manner, people would notice very quickly. They probably had to address that problem early-on, since they are very "loop oriented."
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:50 PM   #137
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you know that, don't you.

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Old 11-29-2009, 05:55 PM   #138
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you know that, don't you.
...
Oh, Lordy. I think you're right. I'm going to try QPC combined with my aforementioned solution. Will report back.

Edit: Its even more accurate with QPC turned on. It still seems not quite right though.

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Old 11-29-2009, 06:02 PM   #139
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What is happening here is that my firewire interface reports the latency back to Reaper or whatever program for the analog I/O. Since I mainly use a better external converter I have to compensate for the extra latency of the external converter hooked up to the adat ports on my interface.

The 98 samples goes in the input samples box to compensate the audio tracks

The +6ms and the -6ms go in the input and output ms boxes to compensate the midi. These numbers cancel out in the latency calculation so the midi moves without effecting the audio tracks

If you do not have a problem with audio offset, then you could just enter numbers for midi offset but there would have to be a value of + or - something so that audio offset would not be messed up
Thanks for that. However, I just did some testing, and even with a bunch of ms's added to the output offset, the midi doesnt actually move considerably compared to where it was placed before this. I just tried -200.00 ms output and 200.00 ms input and no dice. What the heck am I doing wrong now then. Bah. Never an early night.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:22 PM   #140
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"Thanks for that. However, I just did some testing, and even with a bunch of ms's added to the output offset, the midi doesnt actually move considerably compared to where it was placed before this. I just tried -200.00 ms output and 200.00 ms input and no dice. What the heck am I doing wrong now then. Bah. Never an early night."

I'm stumped works for me here. Well like I said earlier I'm still on Version 2.58.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:34 PM   #141
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I'm stumped works for me here. Well like I said earlier I'm still on Version 2.58.
Hmm. I take it back. It certainly IS doing something. I just tried out merely leaving them at 0.00, while turning off the "use audio driver reported latency" and voila, now the notes are bouncing between getting a few ms's ahead and behind, like they "should". I saw a suggestion from someone who found that this this was preferable in that thread you mentioned.

Now its usually between 5-10 ms ahead or back, while before it was basically ALWAYS 20-30 ms ahead, no (maybe one or two) notes behind. THAT is an improvement. Now I havent tried audio yet, but that'll come soon enough.

Maybe the reason why I didnt get results is because I had the "use audio driver reported latency" on most of the tests, and that my card somehow is reporting this completely wrong. Dunno. What I KNOW is that if this is it, I'll just call it a day and begin recording instead of wasting more time on theory. Hehe.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:43 PM   #142
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Hmm. I take it back. It certainly IS doing something. I just tried out merely leaving them at 0.00, while turning off the "use audio driver reported latency" and voila, now the notes are bouncing between getting a few ms's ahead and behind, like they "should". I saw a suggestion from someone who found that this this was preferable in that thread you mentioned.

Now its usually between 5-10 ms ahead or back, while before it was basically ALWAYS 20-30 ms ahead, no (maybe one or two) notes behind. THAT is an improvement. Now I havent tried audio yet, but that'll come soon enough.

Maybe the reason why I didnt get results is because I had the "use audio driver reported latency" on most of the tests, and that my card somehow is reporting this completely wrong. Dunno. What I KNOW is that if this is it, I'll just call it a day and begin recording instead of wasting more time on theory. Hehe.
With mine it works great with the use driver reported latency. Are you sure you are not putting the ms in the samples box? Anyway I'm done for the evening too
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:50 PM   #143
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Yeah, I'm sure. It does indeed work now that I've turned off above mentioned setting though. Only thing remaining is to dial in the right numbers. Night Fritz, and thanks again.

Edit: Now, having run a full circle around this subject, I'm now practically unsure if I'm even having a problem with this, except my own human timing that is. More info here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=50

It IS useful to have the ability to fine tune the offset of midi recording though, due to the nature of recording in this manner (and small differences between audio and midi latency), so the offset settings should come in handy any way.

Last edited by Chris Ihao; 11-29-2009 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:13 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Oh, Lordy. I think you're right. I'm going to try QPC combined with my aforementioned solution. Will report back.

Edit: Its even more accurate with QPC turned on. It still seems not quite right though.
Yeah, with my Echo Mia this thing made a difference too. I set it to QPC and used that "preserve PDC delay while monitoring". I just have to test it more but so far so good.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:10 AM   #145
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Default Conclusion

Just to round this up for me. Yes, I need to dial in some offset to get it right. I let the "use audio driver reported latency" stay checked, then I put in -8.00 ms output offset and 8.00 ms input offset.

This way I in effect let Reaper manage the audio offset while I fine tune the midi. I may increase the output/input offset a few more ms, to move the notes a tad "back", but its fine now at 8.00 ms.

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread, and especially to Fritz who burst the bubble about how to adjust the midi offset through Reapers own settings. I think there should be something about this in a sticky, as this really isnt that obvious. Fritz post at http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=37, and the thread its posted in, should be a great reference to others.

Anyhow, lets make music!
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:27 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by EricM View Post
Reaper records only "what you play", so in case when using
hardware synths everything stays in time, as it predelays
the MIDI that needs to get to hardware on playback.
Predelaying, yes, but for which amount? Using which MIDI, MME or Direct-X? What if some midi tracks are set to MME and some others to Direct-X?

Do we have all together different optimum solutions, based on what we are using?

1. Using only hardware synths + hardware efx
2. Using only hardware synths + software efx
3. Using hardware and software synths + software efx
4. Using only software synths + software efx

If yes, how do such optimum solutions look like? Or does Reaper care already about everything automatically? How can we measure the "unpreciseness amount" of Reaper regarding midi timing?
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:37 AM   #147
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i think that there should be no need for the end user to concern himself with this stuff. call me crazy.
Um, agreed. I am glad I stumbled upon this thread as I have been going bonkers with early MIDI myself. I KNOW my timing isn't that off. I had sort of written off as my USB MIDI interface... but it seems everyone is wrestling with this.

Why is this not a bug report or is it? MIDI sync should not be an issue or even anything to have to think about ever.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:30 PM   #148
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Default MIDI time travel...

I searched the forum the other day but did not find this thread...

I did MIDI loop back tests, and I get early MIDI events with ASIO4ALL.
This post: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=24
And others in this thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=430514

Note that I do not get early MIDI events with my other ASIO driver (Lexicon Lambda ASIO), so I use this one for MIDI.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:39 AM   #149
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Now that MIDI's getting alot of attention, maybe this issue can be fixed?
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:27 AM   #150
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Default 2010 bump..

anyone else still finding the built in metronome to be out?

Is there a FR request for this too?

(I know it's a necro but it seems quite vital to have a solid metronome)
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:11 PM   #151
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Default Metronome is off

I have run into this issue also (3.72), very simple to check, just record the metronome click (at 200-300 BPM) with a mic on an audio track and you will hear the issue, the clicks should fall in the same place. The recorded one is out of sync with the playback click. I don't use midi and am all acoustic. Had the same issue with Logic (and Cakewalk years earlier), but Logic has a sample delay where one can adjust the output to recording (both a plus and minus adjustment).

This is a show stopper for me.

Yes the metronome is off where if you record to the metronome, it will feel rushed, any help?

Thanks

TC Konnect 6 Firewire interface

This is a latency issue. Fixed this issue by un-clicking "Use audio driver reported latency" in Preferences -> Recording Settings, then on two different audio cards, recorded the click and set a time in "Output manual offset". It is precise now. Had to do this on both my M_Audio Firewire 610 and the TC Konnect.

Last edited by timberlinemusic; 12-10-2010 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Fixed issue
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:42 PM   #152
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I hadn't noticed this before because I have been doing a lot of freetime recording without metronome.

I just started working on a piece that needs strict time and hit this wall.

I input a pattern with the mouse and then played a 2nd part.

So I now have 2 parts.

I turned on the metronome for some reason to do something else and things sounded out of whack.
I eventually found that I have to move the midi 3-5 128ths ahead to get the midi in sync with the metronome.

Since these were orchestral strings I figured it was just the nature of the samples I was using.
Now it looks like it is a problem with the metronome.
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:18 AM   #153
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Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=37512
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:46 AM   #154
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Default You are talking about: Human Latency compensation!

Hi Chris,

I've read through the whole Thread. Your Workaround with a self prepared 25ms to 35ms delayed Metronome Track is great!
I've found the nudge function ( type [n] for it) as a workaround for this Problem.
Therein you can shift tracks by a chooseable value in milliseconds.
Now what is the reason for this Behaviour?

It is not Reaper! Not the Soundcard reporting wrong Latency times, neither the same issue with the MIDI Driver. And you, the musician is also not responsible to that.

The reasonis, that you are hearing, that there is a small amount of latency while playing with a VSTi Plugin. You hear a timelag between your played notes and the click. Now what happens is that you automatically play a little bit earlier in time, so that your played sound and the click are both in time. You are anticipating the played notes.
But normally you do not record the audio signal but the midi signal. And MIDI is placed there where you've pressed the Key and not there where your sound comes to your ear.

The funniest Thing is, that you've measured exactly the same time lag as I did. 25 to 35ms. I myself measured values between 28 to 34ms depending on the used virtual Instrument.

The time you've played the notes ahead is the sum of all latencys on your Computersystem.

1. Soundcard Latency (on my system 3ms)
2. sampled sound latency (normally around 1 to 8 ms)
3. MIDI Latency (can be between 1 to aprox. 6ms)
4. DA Converter time (1 ms)

Maybe this information is helpful for you. Best Regards, Musinux
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:58 AM   #155
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Default Hint : have a look at this thread

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=136362

Here I am discussing the same problem.
The big question is the difference between 15ms (sum of all known latencys) and the measured 28 to 34ms.
Anyone with Ideas here?

Best Regards, Musinux.
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