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01-22-2023, 06:24 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 23
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Tired of mixing in the box
I keep seeing these cheap second hand mixers with 16 or even 24 channels going cheap on marketplace. I been thinking about buying one to try mixing my songs outside the box. Got into home recording in the late 90s and been an in the box guy the whole time. I’m bored with it. Bored with the precision and control. I want to try mixing old school, learning your fader moves, mess with pots, insert hardware effects and stuff
I have a motu 828 and a behringer fca1616..so thats 16 outputs. I have an old Yamaha mg12/4, that has only ever been used to control my monitor’s volume. I hooked a mic and tried the pres, much better than the devices i own, whisper quiet, the the eq is basic but musical. Got me thinking about trying to mix outside the box. But i would need an upgrade to bigger mixer with more mono inputs.
Anyone doing this? What are the pitfalls, limitations etc etc. what some good brands, makes models. I know Yamaha is excellent. I keep seeing Allen and Heath Gl2400 selling around $400..they look good.
I got a couple rolls of both balanced and unbalanced shielded cable and a good soldering to make up patch cables.
Any info appreciated guys
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01-22-2023, 07:37 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 739
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You can do it, if you want to. Nothing wrong with mixing on hardware, it was done like that for decades, all hits were made like that.
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01-22-2023, 08:36 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,787
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A control surface may be a better solution. I've never used one and if you want one that looks & feels like a mixer it's probably expensive, and it MIGHT have to be made by AVID and integrated with Pro Tools.
Mixing is done by summation. (Analog mixers are built-around summing amplifiers.)
Computers are really-really-really good at addition!!!
Any analog electronics adds noise, distortion, and frequency response variations.
In practice noise is usually the only concern, with frequency response and distortion almost always being better than human hearing unless the electronics are over-driven into clipping (distortion). Most mixers have plenty of headroom, and of course meters, so you are unlikely to drive it into clipping.
Noise may not be audible either, and the recording may already have preamp noise, acoustic noise, or guitar buzz, etc., so any noise added by the mixer (or other analog processing) may be insignificant.
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01-22-2023, 09:01 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,098
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I started recording in the 70s with a Tascam 80-8 and Tascam line mixer.
https://forum.cockos.com/attachment....7&d=1570768215
Then in the late 70s and early 80s I bumped up to a 1" Ampex and Carvin mixer like Frank Zappa used in his mobile truck recording setup.
https://forum.cockos.com/attachment....2&d=1567387854
Now I use a UMC1820/ADA8200 and REAPER.
https://forum.cockos.com/attachment....9&d=1620594488
I would never go back to a hardware mixer. I used to have a notebook with track sheets, so if I went back to mix a song, I'd have a map of how the trims, fader, pans, Etc., were set.
It was a pain because setting the mixer from notes only gets you back into the ball park. Also, I remember doing mixes where I had to enlist a second person to man one set of faders, while I controlled another group.
I do all my automation for volume levels with envelopes in REAPER now, and it is soooo much better. The suggestion to maybe look into a control surface would be the best option if you want to turn knobs and move faders.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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01-22-2023, 09:04 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 279
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As DVDdoug mentions, maybe a control surface could be an option? Cheapest new ones I believe are from Behringer, but if you're on a budget, you can get them somewhat cheap second hand too.
If you're willing to put in some work and risk, you could get an old version and research if they still work on your OS / DAW / setup.
I got an M-Audio Projectmix I/O that I regularly use. It cost 50euro and then an added 50euro or so for a FireWire PCI-card and cable. Took some while finding the drivers and correct setup, but it works a charm even if every button doesnt always do what it says on the tin...
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01-22-2023, 09:44 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbox
What are the pitfalls, limitations etc etc.
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There are two things we're ever doing with audio. Creating sound or preserving sound. The former is the obvious interest and fun and creative and when it sounds right it is right. The latter makes us lose our minds!
The control precision, recording precision, and fidelity precision circles around the 'preserving audio' part. I suppose there are enough examples of a project crumbling into nothing from the latter bit going wrong in analog that any perceived limitations to creativity are a moot point?
I think the solution is control surface integration. Or at least that's my new mission to address the scenario.
The other element is every last piece of analog gear that actually performs costs $$$$ and every lowest common denominator part brings the whole system down to that level. Discrete analog components are astronomically expensive over the modern digital counterparts. And stuff like preserving an audio signal to tape at anywhere near the level of 24 bit digital is nearly impossible. (And then you still need to copy it!)
Lots of opportunity for failure in analog component systems. Living with compromise brought on by equipment is insulting and annoying. Nothing is more intuitive than analog gear and an analog mixing board under your fingers. It's the pitfalls that pushed us away. The opportunities opened up by digital systems were attractive even if the workflow got weird.
I think it's something like that.
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01-22-2023, 12:54 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 674
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From the "I Get That You Are Psyched, But Here's The Ugly Truth..." corner -
While I do know some folk's whose opinions that I trust who have on particular aspect about getting out to a mixer where I see the argument?
Doing the actual grunt work on a board is going to have some potential downsides that one should seriously consider before they jump out on that road.
The Yamaha you mentioned?
If you gave me one of those with a direct out or an insert, I probably wouldn't have much of a problem using it for preamps to record.
Now, regularly doing the stuff that you brought up with any board in that range?
There are going to be some legitimate "You've Got To Check The Oil, And Get It Changed..." issues that will just be headaches that you will need to contend with.
The Pan Pots? The Faders?
They are not exactly made to work for decades with no TLC on that caliber of board. So, be prepared to deal with getting them worked on at some point(and that's if what you buy won't need some work right out of the gate...)
Hardware effects...
Serious question -
Do you actually need them, or is the thought of using them interesting?
Because, to be completely honest?
Most "In The Box..." stuff will do most of it with none of the "Bought It Used..."/"Need To Maintain It..." headaches that will come with hardware effects units.
Just some things to take into account.
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01-22-2023, 02:31 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,074
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(Analog) hardware is immediate, one knob for every parameter, no lag. Dare I say it, digital is sounding "better" in the end, but comes with choice paralysis, if you don't limit yourself.
Pick your poison.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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01-23-2023, 12:13 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: The Land of Oz
Posts: 702
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I tired of windows glitches and hate mixing with a mouse, so now I record on a Tascam DP32SD. 32 channels with faders EQ pots, pan knob, effects etc. records onto SD cards, can export into a daw if you want or mix and master without leaving the Tascam. Under a grand
__________________
Have a GOOD time....ALL the time !
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02-01-2023, 08:46 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 657
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I mixed in to Soundcraft Folio for a while because I got bored of the DAW. Not a high class mixer but sounded fine for my music. Problem I had was not enough outboard gear, mainly compressors for each channel. It become a real pain so I've gone back to DAW mixing. But I still use the mixer to run some tracks through it and all my outboard reverbs/FX because plugins just don't cut it unless they're just a background sound stuff.
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02-02-2023, 12:00 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 620
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I doubt you will see any improvement in the results by moving OTB. Perhaps you might consider a different reaper theme that is more mixing console oriented, such as imperial which specializes in its mixer design. It is a true pleasure to use if you are used to real hardware consoles.
Otherwise, you might consider a mixing control surface unit - they can be fun, and offer the hands-on kind of control you may be missing.
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02-02-2023, 09:54 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 11
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Tired...
Been there multiple times,
recorded 1st album in 1991,Tascam M512/Tascam TSR8
Mid 2000 era started using Sonar DAW/computer recording
2012 I began to feel like the OP ,questioning my shift to the "box" realm and purchased Behringer MX8000 Tascam 2424 24 track digital recorder,the recordings were competent, however I realized the true benefits of a DAW environment, recall/automation/editing (that I took for granted) and sorely missed.
And the realization that along with any hardware comes eventual maintenance.
2014 I switched back to DAW/Computer based workflow, and will never go back
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02-02-2023, 10:40 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,271
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There's just something about knobs... Considering you can only move one at a time with the mouse, it also enables you to work twice as fast.
Close second if you're attached to your plugins is a custom TouchOSC setup where you can mix with your thumbs on a touchscreen. Also pretty fast and better than a mouse. Also has the advantage of showing just about any feedback you'd like in RT.
Heath & Allen, Soundcraft or Yamaha are good bets. I'd recommend getting one with a d-sub connector so you can attach one compact snake for external connections. Optical ports will allow you to expand your I/O in the future.
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02-02-2023, 12:04 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NWPA
Posts: 172
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Harrison Mixbus 32C
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02-02-2023, 11:00 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2
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Dogbox, sent you a PM :>)
Mixsit/Wayne
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02-08-2023, 03:31 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: England
Posts: 59
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Box for me.
All done on Windows Surface Pro.
The touchscreen is made for stuff like Reaper.
Even playing synths now I use XotoPad with the touchscreen.
__________________
Reaper ~ Arturia ~ Eventide ~ iZotope ~ Spitfire ~ MSSurfacePRO
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03-05-2023, 06:25 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 13
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Update
Forgot this post. Thought I would give an update on my hybrid mixing journey.
I now have 3 mixers Picked up an old Sountracs 1642 for next to nothin, thats got some issues..will need to be recapped as some of the channels have crapped out..sounds great. That will be a labour of love job for later in the year, restoring that old beauty. Something like 550+ caps, so i plan to get a desolder gun. Somehow i don’t think a hand pump and braid will do the job
Also picked up an ex-hire Yamaha 16/6fx from 2003 I believe, for $100. It pairs nicely with my old mg12/4. I have monitors hooked up to 12 and set the 16 as a submixer. I ditched the behringer interface and picked up a motu traveller fw cheap, it works really well with my old motu 828mkii fw. Thats the main thing I love about motu fw is the ability to daisy-chain..2 devices are super solid..3-4 not so. I have an 8 pre thats going unused, with 3 devices i could hear a physical tick in the system..needed an external master clock. anyways, Got a super stable set up with some obscure brand firewire card into an old dell 9020 running win 10. 18 hardware outs from Reaper..16 into the 16 channel, and 2 from main out from the 828 into the 12 channel, mostly just for reaper click. With the motus i run a s/pdif cable from the traveller to the 828..so i can monitor everything in cuemix. I haven’t changed anything with the way I record, still use hardware pres into the interface. The pres on the yamaha are nice, clean, slightly sterile, but my mixers don’t have direct outs. You can use the group outs, or an old trick in the inserts just half plug in a cable..bypasses the channel eq. I have plenty of pres so no point. The hardware mixers are for mixing. For years I always wondered why motu, focusrite etc made interfaces with so many outputs...now i know.
The yamaha stuff isn’t high end pro quality, but for what i paid, I love the sound, and having fun. Music has always been a hobby for me, never made a cent, i been paid for gigs in bands over the decades..didn’t even cover the beer money or guitar strings if I’m honest I always had a day job and music has been there as a friend. I’m more into it, and playing better at 57 than ever..started playing at age 15.
I would say, if I was doing this for a job, probably, staying in the box would be the more sensible option. As most have already said, hardware mixing is a pain in the rump, as there is no re-call or automation. We do have cell phones with cameras..but it can be a pain setting the mix up if you have a few songs going. What it does do is force you to be decisive and commit to finishing a song. In the box is anything ever finished..i always struggle with finishing a mix.
So Reaper, for now, has become a tape machine of sorts. Everything set to 12 o’clock, no panning. I mostly record drums using Roland edrum kit and ssd5, and lately i have been using a real hihat and cymbals ( is that thing or did I invent that)..sure beats tuning the kit. so even midi editing is being phased out. My music is becoming simpler by design, less tracks, forcing me to be more creative with less options.
Anyways the tracks are there in reaper, if i later want to mix in the box, i might do that for a comparison. But for now, loving hybrid. I would encourage anyone to grab a second hand mixer if you see one going cheap and give it a go.
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