USB devices on USB-C computer? Adaptor v. hub?

[Buttrey]

Greetings. I have acquired a new Windows 10 computer. It's loaded with USB-C ports but has no old-school USB ports of the USB-1/2/3 type (if I'm saying that right). I have a bunch of USB devices I will want to connect to this new computer: keyboards, hard drives, and my trusty USB microphone (don't judge ). So I guess I'll want to buy either an adaptor -- realistically, several adaptors -- or a hub of some sort.

My question is, who has faced this problem and beaten it? Do I expect no real increase in latency from a hub or adaptor? Would a powered adaptor be a better choice than an unpowered kind? Can I expect a hub to handle two or three devices at once? Has anyone passed a USB mic through a hub and been able to record into Reaper?

[To clarify, I don't have an audio interface. And you may say, "well, then I bet your songs sound terrible." They do -- but realistically, that's because of the lyrics and performances. So please stick with me on my USB question.]

Thoughts?
Thanks,
Buttrey, Perennial Newbie

[b2001]

I have a windows 10 notebook that i wanted to try and start using. It has a thunderbolt slot for the power and a single usb-c port...

So my original problem is different than yours, but my resolution can give you some perspective.

I was concerned about overloading the usb bus so i bought a powered j5create hub with 7 usb 2/3 ports. I am running a scarlett 2i2 interface, midiplus akm320 controller, mouse, large 24” monitor (thru usb to hdmi conversion), and sometimes a usb drive for backup only off this hub...

I have had no troubles.... i’m sure i have audio latency with the interface, i monitor thru the interface to not hear it. I notice no other latencies with computer functionality associated with the hub...

Been doing this for about three months...

[Tone Deft]

use powered hubs that are certified to be backwards compatible with the USB standard of your oldest most used piece of gear.



the problem I've found is USB 2.0 vs USB 3.0 standards on the ports themselves. use a powered hub when it makes common sense.

the physical shape of the port is kind of the flavor of the month depending on market trends I guess. if you look up those connectors on wikipedia that would highlight any details in that area. it can imply a standard but don't count on it.

how I learned:

my Roland SPD-DX drum pad/sampler is USB 2.0
my Dell Inspiron Laptop has a USB 2.0 and a USB 3.0 port, one marked SS (USB 3.0 high speed)
I have a j5 Create USB hub (powered, the $40 model), USB 3.0 and backward compatible to USB 2.0
I have a random unpowered USB hub that hangs off a long USB cable extender to quickly plug USB stuff into the j5 Create hub.
I run Ableton and Reaper alongside them
I use a USB sound card (standard looking 2 FP mic pre Edirol UA101) USB 1.0

my Roland would always just not cooperate! I was always bouncing the power on it and it would screw with my PC. lots of little annoyances when I try to get my studio talking together.

my sound card did not work well on a USB hub at all. connecting it to either port on my laptop, it works fine.

I finally took the time to read the manuals to dig into exactly which USB standards they all use.

the sound card work fine if it's not on a USB hub at all.
the Roland can be on the j5 Create hub but not the unpowered hub.


my latency is around 22mS, can't stand it. now I know that maybe it's my sound card, I would think my laptop would be more usable with DAWs. frustrates the hell out of me.

[Buttrey]

Excellent. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm still unsure about the USB mic, but let's see what happens.

[domzy]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

my latency is around 22mS, can't stand it. now I know that maybe it's my sound card, I would think my laptop would be more usable with DAWs. frustrates the hell out of me.

i think this would be more likely due to the USB 1.0 interface rather than the power of your computer?

[serr]

The adapters are supposed to just work... on Macs with USB-C. Probably the same deal with Windows machines now. But if there are issues, a thunderbolt hub with USB ports should be a solution. (I'm thinking about some of the machines with HDMI ports with everything but video disabled. Thunderbolt hubs are a solution there. Same deal.)

FYI. Some USB-C ports on some machines may be USB 3.0 only. No thunderbolt 3.0. (Full USB-C is both.)
Some adapters are little thunderbolt hubs themselves. (Just with a single port.) These would not work in a USB 3 only USB-C port.

Pay attention to the details and specs of the adapters and hubs!

[serr]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

my latency is around 22mS, can't stand it. now I know that maybe it's my sound card, I would think my laptop would be more usable with DAWs. frustrates the hell out of me.

You don't mention what block size you arrived at.

Are you saying that you:

Determined the smallest block size you can run stable with.
Determined the sample rate that gave you the best results with that? (48k right?)

And what you're saying is that at 48k and with the smallest stable block size, the best latency you can dial down to before dropouts results in 22ms round trip?

That combo USB mic ("combo" in that it has a USB audio interface built in) isn't going to be a very fast interface for one thing. If you're making aggregate devices of multiple interfaces (between that USB mic/interface and other devices), that might limit how far you can dial the system down too.
The bottleneck is very likely your current audio interface.

What sample rate and block size?
Controlling from Reaper or other app or control panel app?

[Tone Deft]

thanks for the interest, I wasn't expecting that but it's appreciated. I'm befuddled by my latency!

Edirol UA101
Buffer size 512

Ableton I get about 8 tracks where I can run a Live drum rack for my midi drum kit and a multi-sampled Organ sound for my external keyboard controller.

Applying SYNC to my SPD-SX (Roland midi drum pad) and Kaossilator Pro+ eventually cause Live to freeze after 5-10 minutes. if I don't apply SYNC I use the same set to record my jams with no problems, midi and audio.

laptop is a Dell Inspiron Corei7 10th Gen 10510U @ a.8-2.3GHz


is the issue my sound card or my computer?? I've been trying lower cost solutions to lower latency, like buying Reaper. going to 96kHz limits the number of tracks I can use, I use 48kHz 24 bits.

any insight appreciated. I don't have a more powerful computer in my home to see what the bottleneck is. I don't have a feel for what kind of latency I should strive for with my specs, everyone posts specs of their latest and greatest gear.

so maybe a new Focusrite Scarlet 8i6 Gen 3 would lower my latency, it should. or do I obviously need a new computer??

kinda lost, help much appreciated. DAWs aren't as much fun with 22mS of latency when you just want to play guitar.

[valy]

Have you looked into USB-C audio interfaces?

https://producerhive.com/buyer-guide...io-interfaces/

Disclaimer: I haven't tried any of these

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by valy

Have you looked into USB-C audio interfaces?

https://producerhive.com/buyer-guide...io-interfaces/

Disclaimer: I haven't tried any of these

absolutely. the Claret series are the right one to pick, but I'm opting for the Scarlet series to have more inputs available. I like to connect EVERYTHING to my sound card, from my TV to bluetooth audio receiver and outboard midi gear and pedal board effects.

in that article they tote USB-C's physical features, ie higher wattage support, but they don't directly speak to latency other than 'low latency'.

if I can spend < $300 on a new sound card and get lower latency that would make me happy and I can put off buying a new computer and appreciate what I already have.

if I spend that money and still get lousy latency then my money is wasted, I should have continued to save for a new computer.

it's a budget issue based on a blind guess my me. so, I'm living with it and waiting to save money for a larger PC to make sense. I buy nice stuff when I buy it and I make sure I use what I have. I just don't buy lots of stuff. lessons learned from watching other people.

[valy]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

absolutely. the Claret series are the right one to pick, but I'm opting for the Scarlet series to have more inputs available. I like to connect EVERYTHING to my sound card, from my TV to bluetooth audio receiver and outboard midi gear and pedal board effects.

in that article they tote USB-C's physical features, ie higher wattage support, but they don't directly speak to latency other than 'low latency'.

if I can spend < $300 on a new sound card and get lower latency that would make me happy and I can put off buying a new computer and appreciate what I already have.

if I spend that money and still get lousy latency then my money is wasted, I should have continued to save for a new computer.

it's a budget issue based on a blind guess my me. so, I'm living with it and waiting to save money for a larger PC to make sense. I buy nice stuff when I buy it and I make sure I use what I have. I just don't buy lots of stuff. lessons learned from watching other people.

That's understandable. I'm not sure where you live but you could potentially order the interface from Amazon etc. then return it if the latency was unacceptable.

Given your PC specs, I don't feel like it's a hardware issue though. I'm not familiar with your interface but I just read some user reviews on it, and people are getting decent latency with it apparently.

If you are just trying to record some guitar parts, why not lower the buffer to like 32 or 64 and try it? I'm not very familiar with Ableton or SYNC.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

thanks for the interest, I wasn't expecting that but it's appreciated. I'm befuddled by my latency!

Edirol UA101
Buffer size 512

512 sample block size, right?
And you have the box ticked next to it?

Is this as low as you can go without getting dropouts?
Did you try 128 samples, for example?

This is your latency control.

You get dropouts if you go too low for your system to keep up.

Interfaces that are faster to begin with lead to lower latency at higher block sizes (than a slower interface at the same). Higher block sizes lead to more and bigger plugins live.

Only use low latency if and when you have to. Only for live work or if you need to play through plugins when overdubbing. Leave it set to 512 or 1024 samples for mixing.

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by valy

return it if the latency was unacceptable.

LOL I hadn't considered a return policy. I live in a big city with a Guitar Center and others. funny though, Guitar Center has given up on USB Mics, audio interfaces and such. I've tried up and down Hwy 101 SF to Eugene, it's a shit show.

Given your PC specs, I don't feel like it's a hardware issue though.

that's great to hear. I have no frame of reference. I've been using laptops for years actually. fairly good ones, I don't cheap out. I see people perform with them and I don't make complex EDM, just make a backing track and jam out, record some bits.

I'm not familiar with your interface but I just read some user reviews on it, and people are getting decent latency with it apparently.

it's the basic configuration like Focusrite offers, two Hi-Z/mic inputs on the front with 2-6 mono inputs on the back. headphones and monitor mix on the front. I fear reviews on it are as dated as the device. nobody really slams an OLD interface in reviews.

my audio interface has gotta be over 15 years old. I was used to wrangling latency 15 years ago, everyone was. these days I fear that my OLD sound USB 1.0 sound card is STILL 15 year old latencies and my laptop is just fine.

the return policy is a new idea and the best one running, thanks!

If you are just trying to record some guitar parts, why not lower the buffer to like 32 or 64 and try it? I'm not very familiar with Ableton or SYNC.

cool, thanks. I've been using Ableton for close to 20 years or whatever, it's the ONLY DAW I've used in that timeframe. Reaper is new to me. BUT yes, your advice is spot on and appreciated.

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by serr

512 sample block size, right?
And you have the box ticked next to it?

Is this as low as you can go without getting dropouts?
Did you try 128 samples, for example?

This is your latency control.

You get dropouts if you go too low for your system to keep up.

Interfaces that are faster to begin with lead to lower latency at higher block sizes (than a slower interface at the same). Higher block sizes lead to more and bigger plugins live.

Only use low latency if and when you have to. Only for live work or if you need to play through plugins when overdubbing. Leave it set to 512 or 1024 samples for mixing.

yes, thanks. I've been using Ableton for a long time and have banged my head on buffer sizes etc, I hear ya. I bought Reaper to get lower latency than Live, it helped but only by ~4mS or so. for the price Reaper is a no-brainer, sheesh.

I can't find a resource that shows a sound card working at different USB speeds showing the latency. or maybe I just came up with the right google question. (the answer is 42 but what was the question, that's the hard part.)

heh, that might have cracked it... I asked that question on Google...

https://www.presonus.com/learn/techn...Audio-Latency-

there's a section that says 'an example is a system with 22mS of latency, with our new drivers and shit you can get 3mS of latency' with a computer just like mine, running a little faster.

For our example, let’s keep things simple and say that latency is 6 ms in both directions. Our mystery is solved: There are 12 ms of roundtrip latency built into the driver before the signal ever reaches your DAW, in addition to the 9.7 ms latency we calculated earlier, so you set 2.9 ms of delay in your DAW and end up with 21.7 ms of real roundtrip latency!

Modern interface designs compensate for all this extra latency several ways. First, by using low-latency converters; second by optimizing the USB bus clock buffer to be fixed as low as possible; and last, by providing even lower-latency onboard monitoring features. For example, the Studio-series USB-C™ interfaces have a measured roundtrip latency as low as 3 ms on some systems.*

*96 kHz, 32 sample buffer in Studio One on an Intel Core i7 3.10 GHz running Windows 10

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by Buttrey

I'm still unsure about the USB mic, but let's see what happens.

FWIW I recently bought one of those Black Ice Snowball mics. they are not made for DAWs, the only record. you need to run two drivers at once if you want to hear anything. my $0.02 and naiveté.

so I bought an AKG USB mic, the old timey looking one, too lazy to go look. sounds pretty good, haven't done much testing, high latency. works great for gaming on the road. did some quick duet jams with it but kept the tech out of it, just hit record without setting it up proper.

haven't tried it on a hub. I'll play around sometime, or give me a shout if you're waiting on a purchase to decide. it'd be fun to try, making stuff break.

[valy]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

FWIW I recently bought one of those Black Ice Snowball mics. they are not made for DAWs, the only record. you need to run two drivers at once if you want to hear anything. my $0.02 and naiveté.

so I bought an AKG USB mic, the old timey looking one, too lazy to go look. sounds pretty good, haven't done much testing, high latency. works great for gaming on the road. did some quick duet jams with it but kept the tech out of it, just hit record without setting it up proper.

haven't tried it on a hub. I'll play around sometime, or give me a shout if you're waiting on a purchase to decide. it'd be fun to try, making stuff break.

Consider this: I recorded 10 simultaneous inputs at 44.1k with an i5 laptop built in 2009. Latency wasn't an issue. But, I had a Focusrite 18i20 as my interface.

That should tell you a lot about how much the PC specs play into it (compared to the interface).

Or another way to look at it is: You are going to be limited by your weakest link, which right now is your audio interface by a large margin. I think you will see significant gains by upgrading that.

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by valy

Consider this: I recorded 10 simultaneous inputs at 44.1k with an i5 laptop built in 2009. Latency wasn't an issue. But, I had a Focusrite 18i20 as my interface.

'holy frijole' were the words that came out of my mouth when I read this.


think I'll get the basic Clarett 2Pre and use my current box as a standalone non-USB audio 10x I/O box to feed the back of the Clarett.

I will poop myself the day I see single digit latencies reported on my DAWs.

this is great, thanks!

[serr]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

yes, thanks. I've been using Ableton for a long time and have banged my head on buffer sizes etc, I hear ya. I bought Reaper to get lower latency than Live, it helped but only by ~4mS or so. for the price Reaper is a no-brainer, sheesh.

I can't find a resource that shows a sound card working at different USB speeds showing the latency. or maybe I just came up with the right google question. (the answer is 42 but what was the question, that's the hard part.)

heh, that might have cracked it... I asked that question on Google...

https://www.presonus.com/learn/techn...Audio-Latency-

there's a section that says 'an example is a system with 22mS of latency, with our new drivers and shit you can get 3mS of latency' with a computer just like mine, running a little faster.

It sounds like you're saying that 512 samples was the lowest value you could set before getting clicks and pops in the audio. But you won't come out and directly answer that. You might want to state the steps you took (eg trying the different block size values) in detail. If it turns out you are making an error in settings, then someone can spot it.

You are also mentioning using both USB and pci card connecting interfaces. Are you trying to use two interfaces together? There's stuff to set when doing that too.

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by serr

It sounds like you're saying that 512 samples was the lowest value you could set before getting clicks and pops in the audio. But you won't come out and directly answer that. You might want to state the steps you took (eg trying the different block size values) in detail. If it turns out you are making an error in settings, then someone can spot it.

You are also mentioning using both USB and pci card connecting interfaces. Are you trying to use two interfaces together? There's stuff to set when doing that too.

my apologies for the confusion. Live keeps crashing on me lately, hence my poor response. I think it's my Line 6 PodHD500X guitar pedal board (my backup, I have a real pedal board.) I'm using it as my second sound card where I'm set up right now. I do have decades of experience helping people set up their sound cards, I was a regular on the Ableton forum since Ver 2 was released in 2002 or so.


Ableton Live settings
Driver Type: ASIO
Audio Device: ASIO4ALLv2 (been using ASIO4ALL for decades)
sample rate: 48kHz
bit depth : 24 bits
buffer size: 512 samples
In/out latency: 22mS

when I fire up Reaper:
Audio : ASIO
ASIO Driver: UA-101 (the name of my sound card)
Request sample rate: 48000
Request block size: 256 (Reaper has a smaller block size and 4mS less latency)
ASIO Configuration button does nothing
Audio thread is set to ADIO default/MMCSS Pro Audio/Time critical
the only box checked is Aloow projects to override device sample rate. I always make these match, I stay at 48kHz, always.

I do have a good grip on sound card settings and am totally open to ideas. there's always something to learn and this forum is deeeep with talent.

[Buttrey]

From Tone Deft:

"...so I bought an AKG USB mic, the old timey looking one, too lazy to go look. sounds pretty good...high latency...haven't tried it on a hub. I'll play around sometime, or give me a shout if you're waiting on a purchase to decide."

From valy:

"Consider this: I recorded 10 simultaneous inputs at 44.1k with an i5 laptop built in 2009. Latency wasn't an issue. But, I had a Focusrite 18i20 as my interface.

That should tell you a lot about how much the PC specs play into it (compared to the interface)."

Thanks to everyone. I'm not waiting on a purchase, exactly; I know a guy who knows a guy who has a docking station that will provide old-school USB inputs to this all-USB-C computer. So I'll be trying this out. Thanks again!

[serr]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

my apologies for the confusion. Live keeps crashing on me lately, hence my poor response. I think it's my Line 6 PodHD500X guitar pedal board (my backup, I have a real pedal board.) I'm using it as my second sound card where I'm set up right now. I do have decades of experience helping people set up their sound cards, I was a regular on the Ableton forum since Ver 2 was released in 2002 or so.


Ableton Live settings
Driver Type: ASIO
Audio Device: ASIO4ALLv2 (been using ASIO4ALL for decades)
sample rate: 48kHz
bit depth : 24 bits
buffer size: 512 samples
In/out latency: 22mS

when I fire up Reaper:
Audio : ASIO
ASIO Driver: UA-101 (the name of my sound card)
Request sample rate: 48000
Request block size: 256 (Reaper has a smaller block size and 4mS less latency)
ASIO Configuration button does nothing
Audio thread is set to ADIO default/MMCSS Pro Audio/Time critical
the only box checked is Aloow projects to override device sample rate. I always make these match, I stay at 48kHz, always.

I do have a good grip on sound card settings and am totally open to ideas. there's always something to learn and this forum is deeeep with talent.

First, the controls:

The checkbox next to sample rate and block size is an enable/disable switch.
If the box is unticked, any value entered is ignored and Reaper releases control for another app to take over.

The idea is to allow for 3rd party control panel apps that are written to take over or force control. (Which shouldn't be a thing... But it is. And Reaper has all bases covered!)

Check that you aren't initiating control of block size from a different control panel like your ASIO control panel. Or... Use the 3rd party control panel and disable control from Reaper.

The bottom line is you should be able to drive the latency back and forth directly with the block size control. Too low values will of course not be stable. There may be a highest supported block size too. But certainly between say 64 samples and 1024 samples, you should be able to work it.

Second, the audio interfaces on hand:

Do you literally mean a pci connecting interface when you say "card"?
I'm not sure if you are trying to connect multiple interfaces at the same time. There are some procedures around that if you are.

If you're just swapping interfaces around here and there, you may just need to open the Reaper Preferences/Audio/Device page and make sure everything is connected, set, and talking after the swap. Force a new sample rate/block size request by selecting the interface from the dropdown device menu again (even if it already appears selected) and then click 'apply' when it un-grays. That forces a new request to the audio system. I swap around between a few interfaces and aggregate configs of different sets of them and a virtual audio device (Soundflower) and this comes up often.

Finally:

Maybe there are other options? Does that Line6 have a digital output? Maybe it's possible to use it stand-alone (ie not as an audio interface) and output digitally to an audio interface? (Set the interface's clock to the digital input to allow that.)