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Old 06-17-2021, 03:20 PM   #1
Sitruc55
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Default How to set buffer size with pipewire

I'm running Reaper 6.29 on Fedora 34 with pipewire 0.3.30. pipewire is great, but there are still a few issues in using it.
One issue is that reaper does not provide a way to set the buffer size (that I've found) when using JACK (actually, pipewire-jack). QJackCtl didn't work,but starting reaper from the commandline, prefixed like so:

PIPEWIRE_LATENCY=256/48000 reaper

works.
I hope this helps someone
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Old 06-17-2021, 09:50 PM   #2
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Thank you, Sitruc55!

I'm not using Fedora or Pipewire right now, but I'm watching it's development closely. From what I've read about it, it's well supported and there is a lot of thought and planning going into it. The devs want to make it robust, low latency, and flexible. Use cases from pro audio/video to car audio/video.

Please share any other insights you find.

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Old 06-17-2021, 11:29 PM   #3
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Thank you!
Is that means JACK can't control buffer size and sample rate on pipewire?
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:16 AM   #4
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My understanding is that Pipewire *replaces* Jack. Pipewire-Jack is a Pipewire module that provides backwards compatibility. The idea is that at some point in the future, apps like Reaper and Audacity will connect directly to Pipewire.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:35 PM   #5
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Talking My Impressions of pipewire, Fedora

That's right PMan. I always found the Linux PulseAudio/Jack susbsystems to be kludgy. The philosophy of pipewire makes sense as a single. low latency audio-video routing subsystem that is backwards compatible with both pulseaudio and Jack. My initial impression was that pipewire seemed very solid to me and my latencies seemed to improve. With PulseAudio/Jack it was a real pain seeing all the sources and sinks in Carla, but with pipewire they are all exposed with no additional effort, plus I can rename them and their ports. However, not everything has been implemented in pipewire yet. At first freewheeling didn't work and I couldn't render anything in Ardour, but that's fixed now. Applications don't need to do anything special with pipewire, you just select JACK for the audio backend and pipewire is compatible with it.
I can change the buffer and sample rate from within Ardour, but not from within Reaper. Also, Reaper doesn't seem to remember the Jack(pipewire) connections and I have to re-plumb everything from Carla every time I start-up
In general I like Fedora better than Linux Mint and Fedora has an audio production spin called Fedora Jam that is setup similar to Ubuntu Studio.

-Keep Jamming!
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Old 06-23-2021, 01:17 AM   #6
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Thank you Sitruc55 and PMan share these info.


When pipewire release in first version, i always heard some users say it pretty buggy.


It sounds worth to try in this moment.
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Old 06-27-2021, 04:54 PM   #7
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I am about two seconds from completely trashing this distribution Ive been on for a couple months. The only one that has still remained secure at the highe3st levels and its audio is pure shit.. The one thing I do not really like about linux is that there aren't any set standards for getting things to work. Me? I am tired of wasting time with not being able to input audio. I would like to try manjaro but that community put me off when I asked a question a while back. I guess its ubuntu studio. Here come the ransom hackers and malware fun....I cant do this anymore This is l;ike pissing into the wind literally.
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Old 06-27-2021, 04:59 PM   #8
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The dev crew for pipewire really needs some sort of guide to train these people to be able to communicate with others. Their documentation is ridiculously lack and lax. I got more off two Reddit threads than the entire Pipewire project in regards to installing it. Dont try to build from source as its not all there. literally. Im talking necessary components of the Pipewire files
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Old 06-28-2021, 02:52 PM   #9
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Post what your problem(s) is (are) specifically, and we can try to help. If you don't provide that information though, we can't help.

Use Manjaro; it's great. Who cares about what someone said on a forum.
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Old 06-30-2021, 02:28 PM   #10
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This may be useful to watch, as time moves on:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pipewire/

After some preparatory steps gleaned from pipewire topics, I used synaptic to install pipewire in ubuntu studio 20.04, if only to avoid being found knee-deep in the tarpits of time, and used pw-jack to prefix commands to run qjackctl, rakarrack, and linux reaper etc.

But pw never would stop connecting first to the motherboard audio chip port,
which I never use, when it was supposed to detect my default maudio pci soundcard, and manually reconnecting things in qjackctl did not help as expected, again, poor soundcard support. The card works perfectly in normal use.

Next, a mini trainwreck ensued when I used synaptic to uninstall pipewire. Audio was left totally unusable, and after too much (partially) wasted time, it was clearly faster/better to nuke the partition
and install the latest AVLinux. I'll put the newer Ubuntu Studio 20.10x on an external drive later on.

My peanut gallery prediction is pw will fail* without a full-featured config gui, linked with a matching text-based config file, much like qjackctl gui and the .jackdrc text file. Without these in place, and SOON, there will be more trainwrecks, only with longer trains, more costly cleanups, and a longer list of audio canundrums facing those few willing to try linux audio.

* failure is an ungly and imprecise description. To the vast numbers of audio hobbyists/pros using mac/win for creating music/video, using linux is a steroidal failure based on just the headcount and sales figures. For those of us happily and daily using linux to such ends, the current status quo has improved slightly, but requires ongoing vigilance, and still drives away more new users than it keeps. Not that some of them don't richly deserve windows 10. And the other richly just keep buying macs. I value freedom, and will promote the system that best secures it.
Cheers
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Old 06-30-2021, 02:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Post what your problem(s) is (are) specifically, and we can try to help. If you don't provide that information though, we can't help.

Use Manjaro; it's great. Who cares about what someone said on a forum.
As one who likes the concept of Arch in general, has used stock arch, and manjaro successfully at times in the past, and currently has the Garuda variant running well, 'great' is the last word I would use as a descriptor.

Arch requires work and precison (which it rewards) in a dumbing-down realm that thrives on, and requires ever more simplicity to accomplish basic tasks, among the 'wtf is a terminal?' crowd. (ahh, just shaddup and click the pretty pictures, you moron$ !!!)

Arch users are sometimes a bit like the Jaquar XKE owner who shows up at the local Prius Club meeting, and revs the purring 12 cylinders in disdain (I do kinda like Garuda wink wink) without mentioning the time and cost to keep all them thar extry cylinders tuned up...
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Old 06-30-2021, 03:25 PM   #12
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I have no idea what that text dump means.

Manjaro works great for me and it's easy to deal with in general. I'm not some Linux hardcore nerd; I'm just an average user who's learned some things about Linux in the last couple years.

If you want to recommend a distro for him that's going to be easier to use, I'm curious what it would be. I've used a bunch.
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Old 06-30-2021, 03:32 PM   #13
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I think if you want to use Linux for music production, and you primarily want to make music - rather than debug configuration issues - then use a stock Ubuntu LTS e.g. I use 20.04LTS with no special modifications and Reaper for my DAW when I'm not developing software (and when I'm not debugging code, I really don't want to have to debug my DAW setup).

If instead you want to use music production as a proxy to endlessly re-installing, system debugging, and tweaking - and you derive a sense of satisfaction from solving problems that should not exist in the first place, then go for it - install something more cutting edge like a 'rolling release' distro at the expense of stability. As for pipewire - like pulseaudio before it, it seems to have become adopted as the 'default' in some distributions when it clearly is still under heavy development (to put it politely). I guess it will be good when its finished - right now, I'm struggling to understand the obsession with it.

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Old 06-30-2021, 05:46 PM   #14
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I have no idea what that text dump means.

Manjaro works great for me and it's easy to deal with in general. I'm not some Linux hardcore nerd; I'm just an average user who's learned some things about Linux in the last couple years.

If you want to recommend a distro for him that's going to be easier to use, I'm curious what it would be. I've used a bunch.
Be honest, you've learned a lot of things after you fell out of the crib,
and cried 'Manjaro' instead of Mommmeee!'

The critical parts are all different from most distro's, the Arch team rolls their own, so to speak. Sure, if a windows expatriot non-nerd can do it, a lot of people can, but for a foreign OS musician seeking greener pastures, Ubuntu Studio and AVLinux are far more ready to press the record button, than other distros. As it should be, since I fell out of the dyne:bolic nest, and landed on a Ubuntu Studio 8.06 CD, in the Cretaceous era, I believe.

And for the record, that was a text drip...I can do a text dump, if someone figures out what buttons to push, but it's all nice guys and unicorns here at Reaperville, so not likely gonna happen!
Cheers
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Old 06-30-2021, 06:21 PM   #15
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I switched to Manjaro mid project in REAPER from the Xubuntu I'd been running since switching to Linux three years ago.

I did not expect it to go smooth, and kept the SSD with Xubuntu intact such that I could have swapped back in a matter of seconds if I couldn't get Manjaro setup and working so I could finish my project in REAPER.

To my surprise, I had *everything* working in a 24 hour period. Kontakt, Superior Drummer, Arturia MiniMoog V, and all my other Windows plugins didn't need to be installed from scratch, nor did any of them get their copy protection triggers tripped.

After doing a virgin install of Manjaro, then copying key folders from Xubuntu like the .wine folder with all my Windows plugins already installed in it, I was able to play my 22 track REAPER project that was started in Xubuntu, and I finished it as a 43 track project in Manjaro.
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Old 06-30-2021, 07:13 PM   #16
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Yep. Manjaro is easy. I don't know when 4duhwinnn tried Manjaro, but maybe it's improved since then.

Anyway Manjaro isn't Arch. Manjaro is Arch-based. There's a significant difference. I wouldn't recommend Debian to anyone, but I could easily recommend MX Linux which is Debian-based. I also wouldn't recommend Arch to someone who's accustomed to Manjaro. At this point I know enough I could probably run Arch (with enough searching on the 'net), but even so I'm confident Manjaro makes things a lot easier for me.

As for rolling versus LTS: Manjaro isn't one of those distros which is so bleeding edge that it breaks things. (An indication of this: Pipewire isn't implemented in it yet.) There may be the odd thing you want to "pin" and not let update (Wine is something I can think of in particular), but otherwise it's fine. I'd rather have a distro that's up-to-date so when I want to install software, I don't have to run around trying to find .deb files in the wild or use flatpak, snap, etc. (for some things that's fine, but for others, not so much). Or for that matter, I don't like having to build things; the AUR has a lot of "odds and ends" that save me a lot of time downloading/building. Also if you plan to use current hardware, it's probably better to use an up-to-date distro. Hardware support in Linux tends to lag behind for obvious reasons.

Perhaps some other rolling-release distros aren't as reliable. I do recall having some issue with MX Linux a couple years ago, but it also might have been my fault since I was doing all kinds of things I'm "not supposed to be doing" with the OS (to learn about it). MX Linux was new at the time though, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had some growing pains.

That's another thing: I wouldn't recommend someone use a distro that's new with hardly any history to it. They might be ok, but again, development in Linux can take a while. I wouldn't expect a shiny fresh distro that was born in 2020 to be as reliable as Manjaro.

I understand the desire for stability. And yes, some distros with rolling-release model can be "iffy" and/or too bleeding-edge. So if you do choose a rolling-release model distro, choose carefully.

Last edited by JamesPeters; 06-30-2021 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 06-30-2021, 07:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
I'd rather have a distro that's up-to-date so when I want to install software, I don't have to run around trying to find .deb files in the wild or use flatpak, snap, etc.
In Xubuntu Guitarix is an older version in the repositories.

In Manjaro it's newer and the plugins now render properly in REAPER. Made me check out the stand alone amp model too, which I now have on a Super-A hotkey when I want to jam on guitar or bass.
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Old 06-30-2021, 07:34 PM   #18
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Yep. LTS doesn't interest me at all. Especially when people purposely choose the previous LTS instead of the most recent one. "What, you intentionally installed a 3-year-old distro because you were too scared to install the newest LTS which has been out for a year already?"

I guess if a person has hardware which is already known to be properly supported, and they don't care to get updates for software until they're 2 years old, yeah go ahead and use an LTS distro.
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Old 06-30-2021, 10:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Yep. LTS doesn't interest me at all. Especially when people purposely choose the previous LTS instead of the most recent one. "What, you intentionally installed a 3-year-old distro because you were too scared to install the newest LTS which has been out for a year already?"
I understand the LTS mindset, coz I've been there and done that for the explicit purpose of not having to screw with my OS for a long time.

Over the last three years, I've become both more ballsy and more trusting of things that might change in Linux as time moves on.

Quote:
I guess if a person has hardware which is already known to be properly supported, and they don't care to get updates for software until they're 2 years old, yeah go ahead and use an LTS distro.
I am one of the biggest supporters of the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" crowd, but little junk like Solaar and temperature sensors now working properly with my fairly new hardware, are reason enough for me to call it broke in my previous OS Xubuntu. Both worked sort of before, but both work properly now.
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Old 06-30-2021, 10:18 PM   #20
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@ James, You've correctly noted that spinoff distros can be very different than their base. I'm sure Garuda Arch might seem like a martian or venutian version of arch to you, at least until the artwork wore off, it certainly didn't bring back memories of Manjaro, except maybe yay for package installs. I can't recall any troubles with manjaro, probably just wanted to test something different at the time, and I keep a few different setups ready for the muse, in case she wanders into the studio, like last night. No warning whatsoever!

MX, I think it is the Mepis and antiX escapees running it, so should have a backlog of common sense. And AVLinux benefits from that. A lot of scenarios I rely on work on first boot. But there are also way to many system lockups,
and at the most inane times...makes no sense to me, with no key-combos for a rescue. A power-off and faith in journal recovery are not huge selling points. I don't know if a failing drive or weakening cmos battery that's old can have such a randomly timed yet effect. I would think some consistancy would accompany end-of-life for such componants.

It is cool that so much productivity can be shared between distros just by
copying well configured setups from drive to drive.

Ubuntu Studio has the official nVidia driver as default for those with branded video cards, and I'm sure that helps with the more complex gui's. When U-he first released a linux version of Podolski, there were some issues for people with motherboard video, but nicely remedied over the first few months.
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Old 06-30-2021, 11:20 PM   #21
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Manjaro has a settings manager that helps you swap kernels, and enable proprietary Nvidia GPU drivers. It also pulls in any necessary RT packages for the Nvidia GPU drivers, if needed (if you're using a RT kernel). It's the easiest distro for this that I've tried.

Backups are good, of course. Also having a bootable USB stick of the distro can come in handy. That alone can help you repair something, if needed. Besides the Manjaro USB stick, I also keep a bootable USB stick of Mint for doing builds of software which needs Ubuntu-based or Debian-based packages (DrumGizmo, for instance).
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:52 AM   #22
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Wow! I didn't expect the types of responses to this thread. My intent was just to help out those who might be using pipewire and having difficulty setting buffer size.

In regards to "which distro is the best". I believe that is a personal choice influenced by ones background, goals, app use and hardware. Clearly some have no problems with a particular distro while others may find the same distro unusable. All I can say is that for me, Fedora Jam 34 works really well and I like it.

Some may not know, but Red Hat Corp uses Fedora as an "in the wild" testing platform for new features that may later be incorporated into Red Hat distros. systemctl is an example of a subsystem developed by Red Hat engineers that made it first appearance in Fedora and later was adopted by most linux distributions. Pipewire is also developed by Red Hat engineers to replace the kludgy(IMHO) jack/pulseAudio subsystems and eventually include video routing as well. It also targets the automotive industry (think of all the cameras and audio on a modern car).

Important Note: pipewire is NOT a hardware driver for your audio hardware. That is alsa which is the layer between the routing subsystem(pulseaudio, jack or pipewire) and your audio hardware. While there may be issues with pipewire interfacing to alsa, its makes no sense to complain about pipewire hardware support.

If you are new to Linux you need to accept that technical support is more on your shoulders than it would be for a paid OS like Windows or MAC. For someone who wants to minimize dealing with issues I'd recommend unbuntu studio as it has a huge user base and many resources to help you. I'd also wait until pipewire is offered by the distro itself.

Finally, although pipewire is designed to be a seamless replacement for pulseaudio and jack, its still being updated with bug fixes and newly implemented features. The current Jack/pulseaudio utilities are suspose to work with it. I however agree that a pipewire specific GUI utility would be very helpful in promoting pipewire and I have told the developers as such.

Just like systmctl, I expect pipewire to eventually replace pulseaudio/Jack. Other's may not agree, but I see pipewire backed by a big company, actively under development with a strong desire to meet the needs of pro-audio and most importantly its a better software architectre for the audio subsystem.
-Keith
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Old 07-01-2021, 12:06 PM   #23
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It's good to have these family chats, and your Pipewire details are appreciated. In my mind, if Redhat investors want market-share, they'll need to get management past relying on the perpetually underfunded/under-manned alsa 'team', and make direct and lasting connections with enough major hardware players, that alsa coders actually have hardware and specs to work with. They've done enough miracles in the last decade, now they deserve a fighting chance.

Whether a rowboat with one oar, or a titanic with a bad propellor, it means either going in circles, or wandering about until you crash. If anything, the last decade made it clear how not to do things in a somewhat free and open space. Change, or embrace perpetual anonymity. You can walk in any Guitar Center and do some linux namedrops, and they'll just point you to the bongo section...

For the record, I used various Fedora releases from V5 to V 23 over the years,
and moved on when security-linux combined with my inexperience, became an audio
roadblock I had no time to drive around.
Cheers

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Old 07-08-2021, 06:21 PM   #24
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Just a friendly bit of distro-neutral info here;

PipeWire has a lot more going for it than RedHat. From what I have read (I'm not an industry insider), one of the intended uses of PipeWire is in Automotive Grade Linux. Just do a search for automotivelinux pipewire - and you will get lots of hits.

Several months ago, I started seeing blog posts about PipeWire so I did some searching to see what it was about. I found Collabora: https://www.collabora.com/about-us/o.../pipewire.html and the PipeWire - Automotive Grade Linux connection. Digging a bit further into Automotive Grade Linux, I found that it is a Linux Foundation project. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/projects#explore

So, I expect PipeWire to be fully supported and funded - not for the pro audio community, but for the Automotive industry. The good news is that it will *have to be* low-latency and rock-solid.

Sort of "a rising tide raises all boats" effect.

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Old 07-09-2021, 01:23 AM   #25
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Iím done with opensuse and itís incompatibility with either of its audio systems Pipewire or pulse to with with my hardware. The latest update of Pipewire moved directories around so finding were the .conf files are to make changes on so it can see the hardware for input has been a three day nightmare. While I do like that it has found the hardware to play back audio on install and go, itís inability to allow audio input is dumb. Pulse does not work at all and if Iím using that audio configuration I am thrown into a never ending update cycle. Where it installs and uninstalls software to the tune of 1762-5698 files daily. I donít have issue with having to manually set up hardware to software to get it running. Did that for the first 5 years I had a pc. But unlike today, you had two sources to work with to figure out issues. The OS resources and the hardware resources. Once you got that running, third party software issues were not too difficult to figure out. Pipewireís page has you looking between their site, the wiki, sourceforge, and GitHub for info to set up the software. I wonít mention outdated code to files that are not where stated on the pages. One would think that a company who has rolled out their package into the wild would have consolidated this information to a single location. I mention this as Pipewire seems to be open sideís only audio package where I get sound. Before the new update to it, I had gotten my input to work for three hours. Finally. Then I moved on and got guitar pro to work in linux. I shut down the system and upon boot all I got were jack errors and been that way over a week now.

Mankato you guys say works? Iíll try that. Right now I am moving all my personal files off this drive as opensuse can take a hike. I donít want to support windows any longer as their software has become where I am having to buy a new system every few years for crap that doesnít work half the time and I am not liking how it is now overwriting my permissions as my computers admin every update to include security updates. Last time I used windows, it was not allowing me to open my email program due to changes made to the security permissions. Which as admin I apparently do. It have permission to change. I have to use windows in god mode and that is a recipe for disaster.

Does Mankato or Ubuntu studio have live cdís? None of the suse ones will work now when I download them. The files are there but when trying to boot it says the boot loader isnít present. To which I have done something wrong for that to happen according to bug report.

Not trying to be a jerk about this but audio production on a linux system right now is nothing but a huge joke to my eyes. I donít want it to be that way but going 1000000% analog with no media to record on is getting more appealing.
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Old 07-09-2021, 07:02 AM   #26
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Stop trying to use Pipewire! If you didn't get the idea by now, it's not ready for general use. In the end it may be "low latency" but it still might not be as good as ALSA for DAW use. Right now only the more "hardcore Linux nerds" are using Pipewire. They're willing to deal with making it work, and whatever issues it has.

Don't expect that Manjaro (that's what it's called, not what you're saying) will currently work well with Pipewire. I haven't tried it and there's a reason: it's not ready. If it were, it'd be implemented in Manjaro by default. Manjaro is a very up-to-date distro.

Yes Manjaro has live ISOs you can run from "CD" (lol who uses CDs in 2021). USB stick is the preferred method. I thought I tried an OpenSuse ISO at some point though. Did you make the CD or USB stick properly?

As for the rest of your post: well, you're probably going to have to edit a .conf file or two at some point if you're trying to configure the distro for low-latency DAW use. It's nothing major though, as you might've noticed in the other thread about Manjaro setup (and I hope you read my post there in particular, how you don't have to do all those steps, just a few, and the rest "maybe" depending on what you're doing).

Without enough specifics about most things you're describing, it's difficult to figure out what problems you've had, which means we can't help. I mentioned before that you need to be more specific. Unless you just want to ramble/rant, and you're welcome to do that. It's just not going to help us to help you.

Oh also I don't know how well FFADO works on any distro, since I gave up on the idea of firewire when I saw the writing on the wall, around the time USB 3 was released.

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Old 07-19-2021, 09:32 AM   #27
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James is absolutely correct, "stop trying to use Pipewire". I think my earlier post may have caused some confusion, I see Pipewire questions coming up here...

In the 2nd post of this thread I said: "The devs want to make it robust, low latency, and flexible". They have *not yet* made it robust, low latency, and flexible - they are working towards that goal.

It has solid, well-funded support, and I think at some point in the future it will be the bomb, *but not today*.

**Do not try to use Pipewire.**
If it's not installed *by default* in your distro, you don't need it. Don't mess with it.
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Old 07-19-2021, 10:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
**Do not try to use Pipewire.**
If it's not installed *by default* in your distro, you don't need it. Don't mess with it.
But it has such a flashy and well thought out marketing name.

The name makes it sounds like it should be the fast one!!!

OTOH, ALSA (boring name) runs next to the hardware, so I use it.
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Old 07-19-2021, 11:07 AM   #29
PMan
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Keep it simple...

I recently had an issue where a synth was *rendering* out of tune.

As a test I tried rendering it realtime (or online, whatever it's called) and *because I was using JACK* that particular synth would not adjust it's sample rate (project sample rate and and .mp3 render sample rates were different).
I got rid of JACK and was able to render correctly, even with the sample rate issue.

I pay attention to sample rates now, but I also ditched JACK. Give me the simple life!

Our boring friend ALSA is the simplest, closest to the hardware, lowest latency, most bestest way to go.
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Old 07-19-2021, 11:15 AM   #30
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I should add: Pipewire's recent development is promising.

The reason Bjorn.LaSanche wanted to use Pipewire, as we discovered on other threads, was to make a Focusrite firewire audio device work properly.

Apparently in kernel 5.14 rc1 it's possible that those Focusrite firewire devices will work properly! (Without having to try setting up Pipewire yourself.) I noticed a comment about that a couple days ago on a blog post. The commenter was using the same Focusrite firewire audio device as Bjorn.LaSanche and apparently once they started using that kernel specifically, the device functioned correctly.

So my little rant about "don't use Pipewire" wasn't meant to be something that is "forever advice". And it seems that it might be outdated very quickly.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:27 PM   #31
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@JamesPeters:
Focusrite firewire devices work properly on Linux? will wonders never cease!
That is pretty freakin' amazing!

@Glennbo:
I have to admit, the name "Pipewire" does sound pretty cool. "I got my FireWire runnin' on my Pipewire..." could be words to a song

And native Linux Reaper supporting LV2 plugins... It's a great time for us Linux Audio peeps!
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:31 AM   #32
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.... Other's may not agree, but I see pipewire backed by a big company, actively under development with a strong desire to meet the needs of pro-audio and most importantly its a better software architectre for the audio subsystem.
-Keith
I was interested up to reading this section ("big company" - probs read Corporation).....didn't read any further!
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:47 AM   #33
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I was interested up to reading this section ("big company" - probs read Corporation).....didn't read any further!
Most of Linux is supported by companies. Believe it or not, not all people working for corporations are evil.
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