Old 09-09-2014, 06:08 AM   #1
Teksonik
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Default Audio Track VU Meters

It appears that Audio Track VU meters are Pre Fader (VSTi tracks VU's appear to be Post Fader).

Is there any way to select Audio Track VU's to be Post Fader ? Preferably being able to Toggle between Pre/Post. I've looked in all the obvious places but don't see any setting to select this option. Thanks for any help.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:43 AM   #2
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I can't replicate this. Make sure your record-arm is set the same way on both tracks. Reaper shows recording levels (pre-fader) if record-arm is on, and shows output levels if it's off.

'Audio tracks' without record arm on should be the same as a track with a VSTi on it.

There are no 'audio tracks' or 'instrument tracks' in Reaper. There are only some shortcuts available to create a track with a selected instrument already on it, and it does some things different such as turn recording arm on, MIDI input selected, and also turns on monitor. But that's all.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
I can't replicate this. Make sure your record-arm is set the same way on both tracks. Reaper shows recording levels (pre-fader) if record-arm is on, and shows output levels if it's off.
But with Record Off you can't hear the incoming signal.

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Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
There are no 'audio tracks' or 'instrument tracks' in Reaper.
Of course there are....they all start out as a "Track" but what I'm referring to as an Audio Track is one that is set to receive an incoming audio signal...in this case Guitar but it could just as well be the signal from my hardware synths. It's obvious what VSTi tracks are......

I want to monitor my Guitar's output Post Fader as I'm playing not the signal Pre Fader. Even if I'm just playing and not recording. Possible ?
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:33 PM   #4
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Reaper has got one track type that allows both audio and midi.
Metering is always post-fader, pre-fader metering is an old FR.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:56 PM   #5
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Metering is post fader when the track is not armed.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wol View Post
Reaper has got one track type that allows both audio and midi.
Yes I just said that.......
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Originally Posted by wol View Post
Metering is always post-fader, pre-fader metering is an old FR.
Not here on Audio Tracks......the VU's meter the Pre-Fader signal not post fader.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Metering is post fader when the track is not armed.
But as I said then you can't hear the incoming signal which makes it kind of pointless. I just want to monitor the Post Fader signal when I'm playing my guitar....VSTi tracks do meter the Post Fader signal.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Teksonik View Post
VSTi tracks do meter the Post Fader signal.
That's because VSTi's aren't coming in through sound card; the sound is generated wholly ITB.

What is the actual reason you want to see the output level of the incoming audio signal? IOW, what is it accomplishing for you?
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:54 PM   #9
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In which case thow a meter on the FX. Any JS will do as they come with meters in their left side. Double click it so it floats and then you can meter the track while recording
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
What is the actual reason you want to see the output level of the incoming audio signal? IOW, what is it accomplishing for you?
If you have to ask............
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:18 PM   #11
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You just create another track, route the output of the guitar track to the new track (pre-fader), turn off the master/send for the guitar track (so you don't get double volume). The new track will show you the output of the guitar track. Keep the volume of the new track at 0db.
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
In which case thow a meter on the FX. Any JS will do as they come with meters in their left side. Double click it so it floats and then you can meter the track while recording
But then that meter will be pre fader no?

Ok so then the answer is "no you can't have the VU Meters Post Fader".....ok so be it......
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Teksonik View Post
If you have to ask............
I do but helping people is becoming less and less desirable around here due to responses like yours so never mind; I asked the way I did for a specific reason but I surely don't have to ask now.
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:22 PM   #14
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Like Karbo suggested, VSTI's don't go through the ADC converters so they'd be post fader anyway without switching. When you go into record with a VSTI you're recording the midi, not the audio. If you are recording the audio, not sure how that works in Reaper but afaik the pre-fader metering for recording is at the ADC, between the ADC and hard disk.

Anyway, pre-fader meter switching would be nice.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:07 PM   #15
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nzdutchie has the answer, though if the send is pre-fader, then you pretty much have to use the fader on the receiving track. It works either way (post-fade use the original track's fader, pre use the receiving) and either way as long as the receiving track is not armed, it'll show the post-fader levels.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzdutchie View Post
You just create another track, route the output of the guitar track to the new track (pre-fader), turn off the master/send for the guitar track (so you don't get double volume). The new track will show you the output of the guitar track. Keep the volume of the new track at 0db.
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
nzdutchie has the answer, though if the send is pre-fader, then you pretty much have to use the fader on the receiving track. It works either way (post-fade use the original track's fader, pre use the receiving) and either way as long as the receiving track is not armed, it'll show the post-fader levels.
This is called a "workaround" and shouldn't be necessary in a highly evolved DAW like Reaper. So if I want to work with multiple tracks I have to implement this workaround multiple times. Very kludgy and messy.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I do but helping people is becoming less and less desirable around here due to responses like yours so never mind; I asked the way I did for a specific reason but I surely don't have to ask now.
My point is that it doesn't matter why I want to monitor real time signal post fader. If you can't see why this would be a necessary tool then any explanation I can give would likely not change a thing.

Thanks for your help but I just asked a simple question and the answer is apparently No. I'm frankly shocked that the answer is no but such is life.......
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:41 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Teksonik View Post
If you can't see why this would be a necessary tool then any explanation I can give would likely not change a thing.
Because what/why you are doing dictates which options I was going to offer being that there are ways to get the data you are asking for (depending). Saves lots of time instead of giving them while you keep replying "well that won't work because...". It's just easier and smart to know the details up front. It was an offer to help efficiently, nothing more, nothing less, carry on. I have nothing for you at this point.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:48 AM   #19
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The most obvious way to check a post fader level (when recording and the meter is locked to input) when a workstation doesn't have meter switching is to solo and look at the master... assuming your master is at unity. Of course, that doesn't work so well if the signal is being bussed and not going directly to the master.

But yeah, Cubendo switches it's meters between input, post fader and post pan, globally, which is handy. Can't say I've ever had an actual need to meter post fader when recording audio but it is what it is.

Anyway, here is the Cubendo diagram (Nuendo 5.5) which shows how the meters are switched. Why anyone would design a(n intended) pro (studio) daw and not take that into account is beyond my personal understanding ... other than the literal truth being that most of these products are actually made for consumers early on I guess, who simply don't care about that stuff. The same goes for faking solo with mutes, it's consumer stuff, no real recording console would ever do that. Take note below how AFL/PFL are staged at the same points as the meters... and it uses a real bus.



The initial goal of most of these products is just to let people (mostly consumers) make music, and to make the company money with flashy or cool production tools. It's not until some time later on when other people who have higher expectations start complaining about some of these designs. It happened there also, with Cubendo, professionals were griping about the mute/solo thing so they built a real solo bus, the listen bus, and it's meters didn't always switch either. People complained / requested it. In consumer use cases, people are cheering because they got "solo on top" but all the other stuff doesn't work the way it actually should, you can't even solo a signal in the control room without breaking / muting the cues.

There is such a thing as a fundamental standard design that recording consoles all kinda follow and consumer level daws don't really hold up well in those comparisons. Things like Ardour which are built for those people (recording types) take that stuff into account very early on. And yeah, my other daw suffers from the same issues.

I should probably add... that's another reason why PTHD is all over most commercial studios, because it does most of that stuff right... and most of those people came from using real consoles.

/Mini rant off.

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Old 09-10-2014, 07:40 AM   #20
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Why anyone would design a(n intended) pro (studio) daw and not take that into account is beyond my personal understanding
I'm almost certain it is simply due to not being a native of the recording world where you and I maybe literally grew up in it. I mean who has even heard of a flip switch these days? You can't know what you don't know IOW.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:52 AM   #21
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I'm almost certain it is simply due to not being a native of the recording world where you and I maybe literally grew up in it. I mean who has even heard of a flip switch these days? You can't know what you don't know IOW.
Yeah, true. In that light the comment was a little unfair.

I should have said "if" that is your goal, to have actual recording engineers flock to your product en-masse, it might be a good idea to model that part of it after recording consoles, the behaviors that they expect.

To that point, it's obviously not the goal of some, like Bitwig or Live or FLStudio, to be the center of a large conventional recording studio like PT. Some others seem to (at least their users do) very often project or expect otherwise, while maybe being unaware of some of those shortcomings. Cubendo obviously had more of those kinds of expectations so they made those changes early on in the SX line. It's Control Room mixer is (afaict) pretty much unmatched, a master stroke, for that purpose, with a few minor flaws... and they've still managed to serve the loopers at the same time.

But to my earlier point, that stuff doesn't sell to the masses making loops at home so it's not a big priority. Can't say I blame them for going where the most money is. Other products like Pyramix cover what is now called a "niche".

Then, of course, a little mini hardware industry popped up to serve the missing bits of daws, speaker switchers, heaphone thingy's, etc, all the stuff that should be mostly in the daw master section already.

Anyway, it's, for guys like us, probably curious that most daws don't even have a simple monitor dim switch.

Last edited by Lawrence; 09-10-2014 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:25 AM   #22
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I can think of a few times when post-fader metering would be nice. Really, any time you're trying to record and mix live at the same time. To an extent, the lack of meters for the mix side forces you to "use your ears", but it would be nice every once in a while for a sanity check if nothing else. Solo doesn't work in this situation, at least not if you're feeding the speakers from the master output. It almost makes sense to have a set of "mix tracks" seperate from the tracks you're actually recording to, except it is kinda more trouble than it's worth.
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