Acquiring a high end pre amp to improve my mixes

[alanofoz]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

did you remember to divide by pi?

Little use unless you use at least 37 decimal places.

[ggrey]

I too like the way this thread has progressed and I hope the OP gets the point that "everything" matters in matters of recording and mixing music: the room, the equipment, mic pres, eq, compressor, microphones, your ADC and DACs, the speakers and speaker placement, your ears and listening skills, your talent, nuff said.

The higher the quality in every area the better your music will sound. Best of luck DL. Keep on truckin!

[Dork Lard]

Thank you all for your replies. I've read each one carefully. There are too many so I've settled for answering just the questions directed straight at me

Originally Posted by White Tie

So, with all that said : if it suits the kind of music you are doing, to me a pushed Neve-style preamp is a HUGE difference for a vocalist. Personally I'd rather use a 'nothing special' mic into a lovely thick Neve than a Neumann into a neutral preamp, any day of the week, its a profound and completely different experience that I'd liken more to using a nice valve guitar amp. Speaking of which I'd use the same chain for most mic'd guitars, and DI bass as well. And I do; I got the bug from the real thing but following advice just got myself the Golden Age one, which totally does it. I wanted a second one so I sprang for the expensive blue one with the fancy bits in it, and though I haven't critically AB'd them, one must wonder whether I think ...does it sound better? Erm ...well, the knobs are nicer and its a nicer colour and you're not my mum, leave me alone.

(to the part in bold) Well first of all, you don't know that.
Second, I haven't had the actual experience with the mentioned expensive preamps, but what you're describing is the notion I would tend to have of it based on everything else I've tried. I would imagine powerful preamps are more important than good mics, for example, as they have a direct impact on the sound inside the mix as you're post-processing. I'm not saying I think mics are useless, I'm saying I would imagine preamps might have a bigger impact on how the song comes out, but I have too little to back it up.

Originally Posted by numberthirty

One other sort of obvious thing...

These VST instruments that you think don't have life/depth/whatever?

Exactly what does that look like inside of a given project? Specific details please.

I do modern synth-rock with heavy guitars. My typical synth is a MIDI performance exported from Guitar Pro, which I assign usually a preset from the U-He VST plugins. I make sure I remove any room or delay in the plugin and keep a dry signal. I will pan that betw 20 to 60 either direction and then duplicate the track and assign a different preset, and sometimes pan that the other direction or around the same area +10. I'll put those under a folder. As with every single track I add a Fab filter EQ and cut out 0-200hz and anything above 16K. Usually I remove a bit of those ugly 500hz ish mids. Then I'll boost a few frequencies from a selection of my preferred EQ plugins. I'll throw in a bit of distortion in there just to thicken it, so from Waves the NLS plugin or the Kramer Tape plugin, or from Ozone the Tape Saturation. I'll usually add a Softube Drawmer and barely compress but it makes every instrument sound cleaner and sharper. I'll connect the folder to a bus where I choose a reverb, and another bus for delay. Every instrument in my mix is also sent to a room compression (gives it a slight boost in energy and clarity) and a room reverb which I keep to a discreet minimum.

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

get an Ibanez TS-9 overdrive guitar pedal. I used to put one on a friend's Rhodes piano, so tasty. he doubted me at first for the blasphemy, great discovery as a general use overdrive box.

I'd love a Strymon Iridium to replace my Hot Rod Deville outside my studio.

Tech 21 SansAmp is a great bass guitar pre-amp.

it might be the pickups in the guitar. if you're solid with your gear choices I assume you've tried guitar stomp boxes. using stereo stomp boxes has some amazing routing/production abilities.

are you used to hearing yourself with the Direct Monitor with IN mixed in with the out? I've done that, it sounds fatter suddenly, then I fix it and it sounds normal again.

not sure about what kind of music you play. you use a lot of VSTs so I guess you're synth heavy but I'm not reading that. if you're using VSTs to emulate real instruments, well there's your problem.

did you remember to divide by pi?

I just upgraded the pups on my guitar to Fishman Fluence. Can't be that.

I'm sorry I don't understand the part in bold.

I've tried running virtual instruments through physical equipment. Back when I had a re-amp box and now through ReInsert. I've tried my Ibanez TS808 and the Wampler Tumnus pedal, but I couldn't get anything good out of it, the VST's just ended up sounding dirtier and worse than originally. The thing is I'm not sure I'm using ReInsert properly, but that's another issue.

Originally Posted by ggrey

I too like the way this thread has progressed and I hope the OP gets the point that "everything" matters in matters of recording and mixing music: the room, the equipment, mic pres, eq, compressor, microphones, your ADC and DACs, the speakers and speaker placement, your ears and listening skills, your talent, nuff said.

The higher the quality in every area the better your music will sound. Best of luck DL. Keep on truckin!

Thank you. It's a craaaaaaaaaazy long road. Way longer and tougher than I could've possibly imagined. But I ain't come all this way...

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

I'm sorry I don't understand the part in bold.

it's a mistake I often make.

on the front of my soundcard is the typical knob for the Monitor mix.
turned all the way left I hear 'output monitor' and I only hear Reaper and my PC if it's also using my sound card.
all the way right I hear everything as it physically enters my sound card, no Reaper, no PC sounds.
in the middle I hear both. that means my signal is louder (which always sounds better), it's doubled up with one version slightly delayed due to PC/sound card audio latency, also a way to fatten the sound up.

I'll spend time looking for a tone, step away, come back and everything is much fuller than when I hear the thin playback from the recording. what did I do wrong before the sound card's pre-amp??? pedal board, amp, guitar is lying to me, I JUST set it up?? no, I've just been hearing my guitar doubled up on itself and recorded a thinner tone.

[panicaftermath]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

on the front of my soundcard is the typical knob for the Monitor mix.
turned all the way left I hear 'output monitor' and I only hear Reaper and my PC if it's also using my sound card.
all the way right I hear everything as it physically enters my sound card, no Reaper, no PC sounds.
in the middle I hear both. that means my signal is louder (which always sounds better), it's doubled up with one version slightly delayed due to PC/sound card audio latency, also a way to fatten the sound up.

That is a helpful description of an interface's direct monitoring feature. I've never actually worked with that before. My last interface was a pci card with low enough latency that I was able to manage what amounts to "direct monitoring adequately with some combination of Reaper routing and not worrying too much about it.

Seems that a direct monitoring switch that only turns it on and off (or maybe offers a mono option) is not as versatile as having a mix knob. Would you hold it against a device for having just a switch, all other things being more or less equal?

[panicaftermath]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

I do modern synth-rock with heavy guitars. My typical synth is a MIDI performance exported from Guitar Pro, which I assign usually a preset from the U-He VST plugins. I make sure I remove any room or delay in the plugin and keep a dry signal.

The sound you describe here is already so processed and born in the box itself that I would think a new preamp would just add one more variable to get lost in the mix.

As others have said, look to production and arrangement, and your use of the basic categories of fx plugins, to achieve the impact you're looking for.

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...

I do modern synth-rock with heavy guitars. My typical synth is a MIDI performance exported from Guitar Pro, which I assign usually a preset from the U-He VST plugins. I make sure I remove any room or delay in the plugin and keep a dry signal. I will pan that betw 20 to 60 either direction and then duplicate the track and assign a different preset, and sometimes pan that the other direction or around the same area +10. I'll put those under a folder. As with every single track I add a Fab filter EQ and cut out 0-200hz and anything above 16K. Usually I remove a bit of those ugly 500hz ish mids. Then I'll boost a few frequencies from a selection of my preferred EQ plugins. I'll throw in a bit of distortion in there just to thicken it, so from Waves the NLS plugin or the Kramer Tape plugin, or from Ozone the Tape Saturation. I'll usually add a Softube Drawmer and barely compress but it makes every instrument sound cleaner and sharper. I'll connect the folder to a bus where I choose a reverb, and another bus for delay. Every instrument in my mix is also sent to a room compression (gives it a slight boost in energy and clarity) and a room reverb which I keep to a discreet minimum.

...

Ok. I'll point something out/Ask a question/Make a quick suggestion(or two...)

First, that description seemed seriously "Guitar..." heavy. Is it safe to assume that you are happy other than guitars? If not, is there something like a place that you could describe wanting to wind up versus where it feels like you are?

Past that...

Once, I read this interview with Jimmy Page where he suggested that distance makes for depth. Noticing that you are keeping reverb to a minimum, do you believe that could be playing a role in what you perceive as shortcomings? If not? Why?

I notice that there isn't anything like "Console Emulation..." software in your description outside of the Waves NLS. Have you ever considered looking into trying something like that(but a little bit different...) out? From what I can recall, the "SSL..." component there might be the closest to "Modern Synth Rock..." while still not being specifically for you. Seems like you could potentially get something like what you assume sending a track through a preamp from something like that sort of slight variation in the software.

Never mind something the House Of Kush "Omega..." software. It would be less like a "Console...", but could be more like whatever it is you believe you are missing.

That said, that last bit is just thinking out loud.

[Tone Deft]

Originally Posted by panicaftermath

That is a helpful description of an interface's direct monitoring feature. I've never actually worked with that before. My last interface was a pci card with low enough latency that I was able to manage what amounts to "direct monitoring adequately with some combination of Reaper routing and not worrying too much about it.

Seems that a direct monitoring switch that only turns it on and off (or maybe offers a mono option) is not as versatile as having a mix knob. Would you hold it against a device for having just a switch, all other things being more or less equal?

a 50/50 mix is nice because I can run Reaper and external stuff at the same time without running everything just through Reaper or just listen to what's going into the card.

it's a nice feature, if it was left off I'd be surprised. that knob is really common on sound cards. it's usually next to the headphone jack because headphones are classically used for monitoring, not the main output mix. deal breaker? for my work flow I'm really used to dialing in and out. some things you wouldn't miss if you never had it.

[Dork Lard]

Originally Posted by Tone Deft

it's a mistake I often make.

on the front of my soundcard is the typical knob for the Monitor mix.
turned all the way left I hear 'output monitor' and I only hear Reaper and my PC if it's also using my sound card.
all the way right I hear everything as it physically enters my sound card, no Reaper, no PC sounds.
in the middle I hear both. that means my signal is louder (which always sounds better), it's doubled up with one version slightly delayed due to PC/sound card audio latency, also a way to fatten the sound up.

I'll spend time looking for a tone, step away, come back and everything is much fuller than when I hear the thin playback from the recording. what did I do wrong before the sound card's pre-amp??? pedal board, amp, guitar is lying to me, I JUST set it up?? no, I've just been hearing my guitar doubled up on itself and recorded a thinner tone.

oh I see. Not sure I have this problem. My setup doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted by numberthirty

Ok. I'll point something out/Ask a question/Make a quick suggestion(or two...)

First, that description seemed seriously "Guitar..." heavy. Is it safe to assume that you are happy other than guitars? If not, is there something like a place that you could describe wanting to wind up versus where it feels like you are?

Past that...

Once, I read this interview with Jimmy Page where he suggested that distance makes for depth. Noticing that you are keeping reverb to a minimum, do you believe that could be playing a role in what you perceive as shortcomings? If not? Why?

I notice that there isn't anything like "Console Emulation..." software in your description outside of the Waves NLS. Have you ever considered looking into trying something like that(but a little bit different...) out? From what I can recall, the "SSL..." component there might be the closest to "Modern Synth Rock..." while still not being specifically for you. Seems like you could potentially get something like what you assume sending a track through a preamp from something like that sort of slight variation in the software.

Never mind something the House Of Kush "Omega..." software. It would be less like a "Console...", but could be more like whatever it is you believe you are missing.

That said, that last bit is just thinking out loud.

On my reluctance to use reverb, very simple: I thought for a few months, reverb everything. Not anything ridiculous ofc, but add a reverb send bus for each individual instrument, with economy, and then the room send bus as well. Then, I'd listen to a pro song. Sth from Depeche Mode, Linkin Park, modern rock or metal, just ANY studio song. Then lsn back to my stuff. The reverb made my stuff too distant, even with slight additions, the accumulated effect was my stuff sounded more amateur. Those pro studio songs, every instrument is right there, tangible and obvious, like they manage to put EVERY instrument at the front of the mix. Nothing in the back. But each instrument sounds good, so no problem. I then decided to go conservative on the verb. I even recently tried playing soloed individual tracks on Reaper and micing my monitors from about 1-2 meters away. The result was not as clean as dedicated plugin reverb presets, but in a sense a bit dirtier and more "real sounding". I might do a little bit of that eventually. The Waves Reverbs are generally decent, and I have the Slate Digital Verbsuite Classics, but I oddly find those so-so (as they're praised like crazy) and get better results with other plugins.

Console emulation. I thought that's what the tape plugins achieved, but I guess it's different yet. Maybe the Scheps 73, or J37 ?


Btw, to the ppl on this thread sorry for being a stubborn bish, I WILL definitely start looking at room acoustics shortly, but I just ordered a Klark Teknik EQP-KT. Read about it randomly and the reviews were all so incredibly positive and then I heard a few examples on YT and I just couldn't resist for the price. Haven't bought anything in a while, so. There's a video comparing it to the original 5 million dollar Pultec it emulates, and the differences are only slight, if noticeable. I know my tracks are mostly VSTs but I figured throwing in physical equipment with tubes might give me a quality boost well worth the 250EUR. I have (reasonable) hope it'll make the mixes a bit more real sounding. Can't wait to try it on the bass guitar in particular, drum kicks, I'm sure the synths will come out fairly different and I'm wondering what it can do for the heavy gtrs.

[karbomusic]

On my reluctance to use reverb, very simple: I thought for a few months, reverb everything. Not anything ridiculous ofc, but add a reverb send bus for each individual instrument, with economy, and then the room send bus as well. Then, I'd listen to a pro song. Sth from Depeche Mode, Linkin Park, modern rock or metal, just ANY studio song. Then lsn back to my stuff. The reverb made my stuff too distant, even with slight additions, the accumulated effect was my stuff sounded more amateur.

There are ways to do it well. I often have stuff kind of slathered in reverb but you never really know it, except when I want you to know it.

Also, be careful with "ANY" studio since there are plenty of genres who love it such as Shoegaze and Dream Pop (Shoegaze's mellower little sister) just to name two. I think you meant mainstream. Then again there were a number of mainstream back in the day with lots-o-verb.

What's more important is that you have something to say and create and that should be the guiding light, not what "everyone else is doing".

Trivia: When CDs and digital came on the scene, there were all these songs that suddenly had more reverb on the CD versions - because the consumer equipment noise floor was now missing.

Edit: Not to shift focus from newbs using too much verb then realizing it later, we've all been there for sure. Just wanted to show that there may be some wiggle room between where you were and what numberthirty was saying.

[maxdembo]

Who knows what reverb you're hearing without proper acoustic treatment ;P

[Allybye]

Coming to this thread late......

I note latterly you say you can only respond to comment directed at you...yes understandable!

So direct to you.....it seems to have wandered off the initial question you posed into how to improve overall by, effectively, FX by one method or another (not just FX plugins etc.) to amand the sound.
Do you still contemplate new preamps? If so you are barking up the wrong tree. Ivan's post (#2) virtually says it all.

You have been looking for more 'power', something to give your music an edge. Can I suggest using a bit of contrast?
Light looks brighter when surrounded by dark. Colours more vivid against a colourless background and so in audio things stand out more when the ear/brain is conditioned to quiet/gentle/soft sounds then hit with the big stuff every so often?
I often feel heavy metal, for example, just sounds ott uunlesss there is something contrasting it. Just an opinion though....

[onewayout]

Originally Posted by ggrey

I too like the way this thread has progressed and I hope the OP gets the point that "everything" matters in matters of recording and mixing music: the room, the equipment, mic pres, eq, compressor, microphones, your ADC and DACs, the speakers and speaker placement, your ears and listening skills, your talent, nuff said.

The higher the quality in every area the better your music will sound. Best of luck DL. Keep on truckin!

My first thought also..... Get a quality interface with better a/d d/a converters first.... They will also have a great clean preamp already built in....RME you can't go wrong.... If that's outta your price range I'm using a focusrite CLARETT @ 96k.... And then keep building from there as mentioned....

[Dork Lard]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Who knows what reverb you're hearing without proper acoustic treatment ;P

good point !

Originally Posted by Allybye

Coming to this thread late......

I note latterly you say you can only respond to comment directed at you...yes understandable!

So direct to you.....it seems to have wandered off the initial question you posed into how to improve overall by, effectively, FX by one method or another (not just FX plugins etc.) to amand the sound.
Do you still contemplate new preamps? If so you are barking up the wrong tree. Ivan's post (#2) virtually says it all.

You have been looking for more 'power', something to give your music an edge. Can I suggest using a bit of contrast?
Light looks brighter when surrounded by dark. Colours more vivid against a colourless background and so in audio things stand out more when the ear/brain is conditioned to quiet/gentle/soft sounds then hit with the big stuff every so often?
I often feel heavy metal, for example, just sounds ott uunlesss there is something contrasting it. Just an opinion though....

so like maybe a dark sounding reverb in the bground so the dry signals on top sound brighter and more engaging ? Because if you mean a contrast betw dimmer instruments in the bground vs more lively instruments on top, I found this formula hasn't worked and the result sounded amateur. Every instrument needs to be well audible and for me it's a constant battle of just getting the volumes for each track right and constantly having to raise the volume of a track, then of another track, now the drums are at the back too much so I reduce a few synths/gtrs down, now they're just lifeless again and I look for EQ or comp moves, etc... but I mean the rule is the mix sounds OK only when all instruments are fully audible and somehow at the front of the mix. But I'm guessing you meant reverb send buses for a darker background.

Originally Posted by karbomusic

There are ways to do it well. I often have stuff kind of slathered in reverb but you never really know it, except when I want you to know it.

Also, be careful with "ANY" studio since there are plenty of genres who love it such as Shoegaze and Dream Pop (Shoegaze's mellower little sister) just to name two. I think you meant mainstream. Then again there were a number of mainstream back in the day with lots-o-verb.

What's more important is that you have something to say and create and that should be the guiding light, not what "everyone else is doing".

yes but there's also a right way to do certain things. My instruments don't all sound glorious where I just have the liberty to add my own weird methods of mixing. I have to get avg sounding tracks to sound proper so the mix overall will at least sound intelligible for the avg listener. If they press play and hear a creative soup with experimental reverbs etc, they'll just tune out, and I mean I don't even want that, my goal is for my mixes to sound proper. I want to play them and not feel tiny inside, I want it to sound at least decent and have the confidence to play it to any public.

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

If they press play and hear a creative soup with experimental reverbs etc, they'll just tune out, and I mean I don't even want that, my goal is for my mixes to sound proper. I want to play them and not feel tiny inside, I want it to sound at least decent and have the confidence to play it to any public.

I getcha. I've been here. Tearing my hair out wondering why my mixes arent comparable with commercial releases.

Its a long road. What I had to do (and Im not saying I'm up there with commercial releases but I'm happy with my mixes now) was...

Learn from professionals way above my level. For me, that was getting a comprehensive guide, written by a pro, going over all the basics so any gaps in my knowledge could be filled in (personally, my use of compression was absolute shit) (mixing secrets for the small studio by sound on sound editor Mike Senior was gold for those tiny snippets of knowledge I'd missed out on by being 'self taught'. Mike Senior does the mix rescue section of SoS too, 'fixing' readers mixes. Those articles are worth their weight in gold, or at least the subscription fee for the magazine, which is free online atm, because Covid)

Having this poster on the wall helped massively - https://www.heavyweightbass.net/wp-c...igitalcopy.jpg

Pouring over endless articles in SoS about how hit songs and albums were made, whether I like that music/songs or not is irrelevant (i was always adding reverb to wide panned distorted guitars to get a bigger sound, apparently that aint the done thing in general terms, mostly wide panned heavy guitars are reverb free otherwise all the multitracking gets real swampy, real quick)

A/B'ing commercial releases I aim to be as good as.

ACOUSTIC TREATMENT <----- this I did LAST, that was foolish in my instance. Shoulda done it 20 years ago, and would have saved myself SO. MUCH. HASSLE But still, I needed to knuckle down and do the learning I have in the last 10 years or so, so its all good. My bass, guitars, monitor stereo separation, everything changed for the better after that.

The Pulteq emulator EQ harware you bought... man, if its a good bit of hardware then fuck it, thats awesome, but I dont think it'll be the bit of magic you want. If I put a pulteq emulator plugin on a mix buss, it wont make much difference tbh. Man, I'd love to own the kit you've bought, you might love it

But really, for me, all this boiled down to not doing enough constructive, dedicated learning from well reviewed media made by professionals with all the experience and/or recordings to listen to that show they know what they're on about.

Ultimately tho, if you have no idea of the reality of what youre hearing, while youre mixing, you may as well be doing experimental reverb soup mixes

EDIT: That isnt to say my way is THE way, but thats what I had to do to get round this 'why are my mixes so incomparable to music I like?' problem.

[Dork Lard]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

I getcha.

thank you for that. That sounded like a message from myself from the future lol. I know for a fact that I'm being an idiot being lazy over getting room treatment, but that's because it's soooooo far outside what motivates me musically. At the root, I'm a creative person, I like coming up with a great original bit and crafting a song around that, and I can (apparently) tolerate being a faux sound engineer and spend countless hours on Reaper to get where I want to, but now I've got to become some sort of a freakin carpenter for room acoustics or turn into a patient reader for knowledge, which I'm not at all for either. And then ofc later you add the fact nowadays you have to be a goddamn marketing specialist to get the music available at all. I'm tired of the odd one comment "wow, that's really interesting !" every 8 months. But, point taken, I'll at least treat the room a bit. Like, seriously I will lol.

P.S.: about the Pultec clone I'm waiting to receive, the Klark Teknik EQP-KT, I'm not naive enough to think a treasure case is about to drop on my doorstep. But I know for a fact certain EQ plugins are better than other EQ plugins and affect the sound differently, and I know some can be very soft yet powerful at the same time even if you pull them all the way up into the 7 or 8s, like not at all destructive. And that's exactly what every review, written or video, have said about it. That it allows subtle yet powerful changes a way plugins can't. And the video demos seem to show that as well. So, for 225€, why not. I'm even now considering the Klark Teknik 76-KT comp/limiter from the same brand, same price. Same kinds of reviews: amazing sound of a classic clone for such a low price. Colors the sound nicely. Some have complained about the Attk/Release for certain drum items, but I've heard good results on YT for snares for eg.
https://youtu.be/Wu8BUJfc9sE

[Allybye]

Hi, no I didn't mean reverb specifically.....just whatever works! Explore everything, levels, reverb, instruments, parts of the spectrum covered, distortion/lack of it, compression, spacial position..... Sometimes more is less....or something!

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

thank you for that. That sounded like a message from myself from the future lol. I know for a fact that I'm being an idiot being lazy over getting room treatment, but that's because it's soooooo far outside what motivates me musically. At the root, I'm a creative person, I like coming up with a great original bit and crafting a song around that, and I can (apparently) tolerate being a faux sound engineer and spend countless hours on Reaper to get where I want to, but now I've got to become some sort of a freakin carpenter for room acoustics or turn into a patient reader for knowledge, which I'm not at all for either. And then ofc later you add the fact nowadays you have to be a goddamn marketing specialist to get the music available at all. I'm tired of the odd one comment "wow, that's really interesting !" every 8 months. But, point taken, I'll at least treat the room a bit. Like, seriously I will lol.

Yeah man. In the old days it was just pick up an instrument, however crap, some sort of amplification, and get out there and do it. Or just use tape and have limits to bash our creativity against.

What it sounds like you've taken on, and I did, is doing everything that was usually done by around 20 or so people The band, the engineering, the producing, the mastering, the marketing, the managing, blah blah blah And we're all infected with this idea of being productive like we're a fucking factory, which then means we have to have a sound that is 'competitive'.

Its exhausting nonsense So what I've gone head first into these days is streamlining the workflow, making sure what I can do well gets done quickly and correctly. Being able to trust my ears, and the speakers, and the room, is def part of that. Likely, after the recording is done, its the most important thing. But anyway, streamlining for me was listening to people way above my level, pro's, filling in my blanks. And stopping having to tear my hair out when a mix sounds completely different on a phone or someone elses speakers, than it does on my speakers.

Your recordings are probably absolutely fine already.

Humour me... Get in touch with GIK, ask them about bstock, and just check the price of one pair of full size tri traps. I bought all mine half price, and theyre all in perfect condition. Which means if youre willing to try some that are a bit more beat up, you'll get them even cheaper. Name drop me just in case I'm remembered I was speaking to the same person every time, over the course of a year, as I was only buying bstock when it came in, and nothing else (I sincerely doubt I'll be remembered, but you never know). Theyre free standing and you wont need to even screw in a hook

TLDR; The streamlining of workflow, including learning and acoustics etc., means more time being creative and feeling happy about it

Sorry, I know I'm just repeating myself. I am procrastinating by saying the same things again, and again, and again, and again....

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

So, for 225€, why not.

Because for that money, you could have two corners half filled with bass traps

[panicaftermath]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

What it sounds like you've taken on, and I did, is doing everything that was usually done by around 20 or so people The band, the engineering, the producing, the mastering, the marketing, the managing, blah blah blah And we're all infected with this idea of being productive like we're a fucking factory, which then means we have to have a sound that is 'competitive'.

Its exhausting nonsense

That.

Learn to collaborate.

Don't overvalue DIY.

Don't fetishize gear.

Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters.

[numberthirty]

Just to point this out...

A lot of the "Each Instrument Is Way Too In Your Face..." sound?

I would not discount how much mastering might have played a role in that. A lot of records went over the edge into "This Is Getting Out Of Hand..." territory a ways back.

Not to say that none of this could be on the "Up Until It Gets Mastered..." end. Just that how it was mastered could be a large part of what you seem to be describing.

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...

At the root, I'm a creative person, I like coming up with a great original bit and crafting a song around that, and I can (apparently) tolerate being a faux sound engineer and spend countless hours on Reaper to get where I want to, but now I've got to become some sort of a freakin carpenter for room acoustics or turn into a patient reader for knowledge, which I'm not at all for either.

...

To be completely serious here...

If the latter is that big of an issue to you?

It might be worth seriously considering if the "Finished Results..." part of trying to capture what you actually want to wind up with is actually how you should be going about it.

Nothing really wrong with if it's not, and there are probably "Vision-Friendly..." folks you could pay to deal with what you don't really seem to want to.

Perfectly valid approach.

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...

And that's exactly what every review, written or video, have said about it. That it allows subtle yet powerful changes a way plugins can't. And the video demos seem to show that as well. So, for 225€, why not. I'm even now considering the Klark Teknik 76-KT comp/limiter from the same brand, same price. Same kinds of reviews: amazing sound of a classic clone for such a low price. Colors the sound nicely. Some have complained about the Attk/Release for certain drum items, but I've heard good results on YT for snares for eg.
https://youtu.be/Wu8BUJfc9sE

Again, completely serious...

"Don't Believe Anything They Say, And Only Believe Two-Thirds Of What They Actually Show You..."

[numberthirty]

Along the lines of the above post, and the piece of gear in question...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4X4hC7dKE

While I'm not always totally down with that guy's reviews, that one is worth putting some serious thought into.

This one is kind of a follow up to the above video. Also serious worth thinking over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5NMCZx0ESU

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

thank you for that. That sounded like a message from myself from the future lol. I know for a fact that I'm being an idiot being lazy over getting room treatment, but that's because it's soooooo far outside what motivates me musically. At the root, I'm a creative person, I like coming up with a great original bit and crafting a song around that,

Yeah, and here's why treatment is sooo important.

Because it DOES motivate you musically.

Whenever I walk into my (well treated) space I feel a sense of calm and creativity -- sort of a fortress of solitude thing.

It doesn't boom, ring, bash, any of that crap.

So, INSTANTLY, I'm in a much more creative frame of mind.

Sorry to be blunt here, and it's coming from the heart, listen to what everyone is saying and treat the damn room -- it's about the sonics sure, but EVEN MORE, it's about the creativity you will unleash when you sense the environment itself, it's a very strong creativity driver.

Just sayin'

[ivansc]

Or you could do what I do.

Until recently I did all my own recording mixing etc & after the room treatment and some serious learning about the technology. It all came out pretty good.


And then I got offered the use of a full-bore professional studio by an old friend, including his engineer, for free!

Nowadays all I have to record for myself is rough demos & leave the rest to my band, the studio engineer and a buddy in Nashville who is kindly doing the final mixes for me at a very reasonable price.

So unless you are as lucky as I have been, PLEASE consider some sort of room treatment, or you will be forever wondering what to buy next in the hope it will work.

Feeling a bit guilty about letting others do all the spade work these days, but loving it.

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

subtle yet powerful changes a way plugins can't

Genuine question... Is that what you feel the difference between commercial releases and your own mixes is? Subtle but powerful?

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Or you could do what I do.

Until recently I did all my own recording mixing etc & after the room treatment and some serious learning about the technology. It all came out pretty good.


And then I got offered the use of a full-bore professional studio by an old friend, including his engineer, for free!

Nowadays all I have to record for myself is rough demos & leave the rest to my band, the studio engineer and a buddy in Nashville who is kindly doing the final mixes for me at a very reasonable price.

So unless you are as lucky as I have been, PLEASE consider some sort of room treatment, or you will be forever wondering what to buy next in the hope it will work.

Feeling a bit guilty about letting others do all the spade work these days, but loving it.

What Ivan said

I've done the 'finding a cheap but great pro to pay' thing a few times, highly recommended.

Mastering is one thing I've decided to do this with at some point. If ever I do an album that I'm really proud of and want to put out in some way, with a release that isnt just shoving it on youtube, I'll be saving up to pay a pro mastering engineer to do it.

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Who knows what reverb you're hearing without proper acoustic treatment ;P

Where's the +1 button when you need it?

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Who knows what reverb you're hearing without proper acoustic treatment ;P

If you are listening in the near field in a reasonably damped room then you will have a bloody good idea what you're listening to. Combine that with high quality headphone comparisons you should have a very good idea how that will translate to other systems.

Knowing what the frequency response is doing (especially in the low-end) is another thing.

Of course if you record in an empty or minimalist decor room then all bets are off. Curtains, carpets, soft furnishings, cabinets all sorts of bits and bobs, the stuff of life, not an empty room. Empty rooms are atrocious for audio, unless you're after an effect.

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by Softsynth

If you are listening in the near field in a reasonably damped room then you will have a bloody good idea what you're listening to

Yep, thats exactly what most of us are advising.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Yep, thats exactly what most of us are advising.

Oh, I haven't read the whole thread I must admit.

I will add (and I don't know if this is in there too) that buying a high-end preamp when still using very modest loudspeakers is sheer folly. Much more important to actually know what you're recording than say making an absolutely minuscule difference in the character of a preamplifier. Loudspeakers make gross differences even at the high end. Preamplifiers (if they are properly designed) will have relatively minuscule differences between the most expensive cost no object designs and quite humble models.
Room acoustics and the loudspeakers are by far the most important parts in the chain if you want to be able to mix and listen to audio in the best quality.

[pipelineaudio]

I'll take one of today's perfect or nearly perfect 50 dollar per channel mic preamps and a great mic any day over a crappy mic and a really expensive distorted mic preamp

[Dork Lard]

Thanks again to all for your replies, I read all of them carefully and I really appreciate the exchanges.

Originally Posted by numberthirty

Along the lines of the above post, and the piece of gear in question...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4X4hC7dKE

While I'm not always totally down with that guy's reviews, that one is worth putting some serious thought into.

This one is kind of a follow up to the above video. Also serious worth thinking over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5NMCZx0ESU

Well I'll just find out in like a day or two for myself, but tbf this guy flat out looks like he's got some sort of an agenda, I have no clue if he does and it isn't important but the video comes across as incredibly forced the whole way. Surely a piece of equipment that's praised by dozens (yes I've read dozens and dozens of reviews on it) of ppl who looked like they knew what they were talking about can't be that starkly wrong. I'm sure the actual 5 million dollar Pultec is better, but for 225EUR I'm pretty sure it beats the ol' Waves plugins I've been agonizing over trying to get a decent sound from for my instruments. If it's a disaster I'll just immediately return it but I think having a bit of physical equipment is a must at some point down the line. It isn't true you can be a beast with just plugins, it just isn't.

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yeah, and here's why treatment is sooo important.

Because it DOES motivate you musically.

Alright alright I will ! Sheesh !
No but more seriously, you're now flat out intriguing me. I just hope I make the right choices but it's actually sounding exciting to me now.

Originally Posted by ivansc

Or you could do what I do.

Yessir, I will treat the room.
Besides that it would be interesting to cooperate with someone else I suppose but I don't actually know any mixers/studio geeks here. Have lived abroad a lot in my life. It's up to little old me.

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Genuine question... Is that what you feel the difference between commercial releases and your own mixes is? Subtle but powerful?

Oh well since you frame the question that way, my answer would actually be yes as a broad response, but more than just that ofc. But that would quite fit my current notion of it as a summary, yes. Surely an actual synth wouldn't hurt either, same with a high end physical amp. But it feels like the tools I'm using now (so Waves, Slate Digital, Softube plugins mostly) can only take me so far - not kidding myself but I've been trying like crazy for years - and that with better quality tools I could achieve the subtle changes that would add just the right amount of color to the various tracks and make the whole that 20% better where it's decent. Not quite a masterclass of modern mixing, but listenable to the common public. Subtle, yet powerful EQ moves, possibly better compression too.

Originally Posted by maxdembo

Mastering is one thing I've decided to do this with at some point. If ever I do an album that I'm really proud of and want to put out in some way, with a release that isnt just shoving it on youtube, I'll be saving up to pay a pro mastering engineer to do it.

Why ? What's currently missing for you to solicit anyone else ?

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

Why ? What's currently missing for you to solicit anyone else ?

Mastering is an art form in itself, and if I'm going to the bother of doing (for instance) a physical release for sale, I would wanna do it properly and use a pro with loads of experience and pro examples/reviews. Mastering can fuck everything, or be that final bit of pixie dust to make it all lovely. Its easy to over do. Its easy to be the victim of ones own hubris and lack of experience. If I was doing a vinyl release, I'd want to have it mastered properly for vinyl, is another for instance.

I think a key phrase in life, art, commerce etc is "You dont know what you dont know", and mastering is one of those things where its the last stage, I should get it done properly if I've already gone to all that effort. No point fucking it up myself by my ears not being right, my skills not being there yet, or my room having shitty acoustics that ruins all my efforts ( cheeky ). I'd like it out of my hands and done professionally by someone with years of experience I dont have at that one specific job.

Another reason... I would love to have a real release mastered at Abbey Road. Just a personal thing, but I'd love to see those words on something I was proud of, plus it would be very likely a good job by them. Same with Bob Weston (bass player of Shellac), he's a mastering engineer. When I checked last, he wasnt out of this world expensive. That name on a release of mine would be amazing

Just a few off the top of my head thoughts

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

the ol' Waves plugins I've been agonizing over trying to get a decent sound from for my instruments. If it's a disaster I'll just immediately return it but I think having a bit of physical equipment is a must at some point down the line. It isn't true you can be a beast with just plugins, it just isn't.

You should tell that to the music industry. I can tell you from reading endless mix explanations from high profile producers and mixers that thats exactly what plenty of huge releases do. Especially with some of the tools you mention (softube etc). You dont know what you dont know.

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

Besides that it would be interesting to cooperate with someone else I suppose but I don't actually know any mixers/studio geeks here. Have lived abroad a lot in my life. It's up to little old me.

There is this thing called the internet...

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...


Well I'll just find out in like a day or two for myself, but tbf this guy flat out looks like he's got some sort of an agenda, I have no clue if he does and it isn't important but the video comes across as incredibly forced the whole way. Surely a piece of equipment that's praised by dozens (yes I've read dozens and dozens of reviews on it) of ppl who looked like they knew what they were talking about can't be that starkly wrong. I'm sure the actual 5 million dollar Pultec is better, but for 225EUR I'm pretty sure it beats the ol' Waves plugins I've been agonizing over trying to get a decent sound from for my instruments. If it's a disaster I'll just immediately return it but I think having a bit of physical equipment is a must at some point down the line. It isn't true you can be a beast with just plugins, it just isn't.

...

I had a feeling that something like this might be your reaction.

So, we go on to another instance. 52:00 in this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwgrQq0mdao

While you don't have to love every record that guy has made, there is no reasonable argument that whatever pile of reviews/youtube videos that you have seen/read amount to that guy's years on the job.

That alone should make you take a minute to reconsider the assumption that a "Budget..." bit of hardware will actually beat software.

That said, he's not reaching for the piece of hardware that you bought. He is using a piece of software.

Past that, I don't think that anyone has said "Don't Buy Hardware!..."

It'd more like(at least to me...) "Don't Buy Hardware With That It Is A Magic Wand In Mind..."

Moving on from there, seriously consider taking an equal amount of time into working out what a "Smart..." purchase will be that you have seemingly put into watching videos/reading reviews.

Last...

The whole "Agonizing..." bit?

The "Basics..."(stuff like room treatment, for starters...) will go a long ways towards minimizing any agony.

[numberthirty]

Now, for an example of the sort of second guessing that I am suggesting...

Seems like you mentioned Fishman Fluence Pickups. While I'm not trying to say "Don't Buy Them!...", I am saying to take a minute to think over just how much they will play into getting something like whatever the "Professional..." results you seem like you tend to mention.

That Fishman design? Relatively recent movement forward in design, right?

Now, start making a list of all of the records that you are aiming for. Once you have, seriously ask yourself how many of those records needed a set of Fishman Fluence pickups to wind up happening?

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...

Yessir, I will treat the room.
Besides that it would be interesting to cooperate with someone else I suppose but I don't actually know any mixers/studio geeks here. Have lived abroad a lot in my life. It's up to little old me.

...

On this one bit?

There has really never been a time when it was easier to circumvent "Around Here..."

I get it as a gut reaction. It just might not be the case.

[numberthirty]

One other instance of being able to "Second Guess..." that came to mind...

The "Pultec..." sort of design...

Any specific reason that you settled on that? It could present the same issue that reamping through your guitar amp created a while back.

What you assume will be the solution could be revealed to be a minor roadblock once you come across another thing that will actually be a part of the solution.

[numberthirty]

Come to think of it, there is another element of "When It Makes Sense To Second Guess Something..." here.

If there is a company modding a piece of physical gear for roughly the same price as the unit itself will run you?

https://www.reviveaudio.com/index.ph...product_id=332

That is a pretty huge hint that you should be second guessing whatever it is that you had believed that you knew about the thing.

Will there ever be an instance where a piece of physical equipment will be useful even though you have potential reasons to believe otherwise?

Sure. Might happen.

That said, it will pay in the long run to seriously think that kind of thing over.

[numberthirty]

Originally Posted by Dork Lard

...

P.S.: about the Pultec clone I'm waiting to receive, the Klark Teknik EQP-KT, I'm not naive enough to think a treasure case is about to drop on my doorstep. But I know for a fact certain EQ plugins are better than other EQ plugins and affect the sound differently, and I know some can be very soft yet powerful at the same time even if you pull them all the way up into the 7 or 8s, like not at all destructive. And that's exactly what every review, written or video, have said about it. That it allows subtle yet powerful changes a way plugins can't. And the video demos seem to show that as well. So, for 225€, why not. I'm even now considering the Klark Teknik 76-KT comp/limiter from the same brand, same price. Same kinds of reviews: amazing sound of a classic clone for such a low price. Colors the sound nicely. Some have complained about the Attk/Release for certain drum items, but I've heard good results on YT for snares for eg.
https://youtu.be/Wu8BUJfc9sE

As for the 76-KT...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEpUCcV_SBM