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Old 09-03-2018, 05:38 PM   #1
Robert Randolph
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Default Reaper's take system sucks, but rather than vaguely bitch about it...

Recently on my website I complained about Reaper's take system being complete rubbish. I think complaints are useful, but they don't inspire progress. So instead of "simply complaining", this is a list of the issues that I've had with the take system.

I KNOW that this is not a new thing. I've already gone through the forum, reddit, gearslutz, homerecording.com, and various other forums to read the dozens (my history says hundreds...) of threads complaining about the Reaper take system. (Yes I read this too https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=61936&page=9, every single post).

This system has recently lost me nearly 90 hours of product (which encompassed MANY more hours of recording time). My takes become so messed up that it was easier to re-record everything in another DAW than try to salvage it in Reaper. (This happened because previous takes become switched/moved/deleted during edits in other parts and was not recognized till later. So undo was not an option)

I've seen threads going back to 2009 about these issues, so I'm not particularly hopeful that anything will be fixed. I just hope that I can encourage some discussion and document issues in a somewhat clear and reproducible manner.

I AM NOT INTERESTED IN WORKAROUNDS. I am aware of a lot of workarounds and have a number of scripts I had to write myself to deal with these issues. I don't want to 'work around' things. I want to get work done.

All information is presented with a stock Reaper install on macOS 10.13.6 with SWS and ReaPack installed. All settings are default unless mentioned otherwise.

If anyone would like to mention other issues, I will happily create a short.gif of the issue and add it to the list.


Issue #1 - Take Numbers Incorrect

- All settings default.



When creating a take that is not the same length as the file it is overlapping, the resulting take numbers are incorrect.

As seen in the video, the resulting leading and trailing items list "Take 1/2" despite only having one take.

Issue #2 - Take Switching is inconsistent

- All settings default. This is presented after the steps in Issue #1



With 2 takes, one of which is not the same length as the other, empty takes are created.

Pressing T does not switch between these takes, however you can "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" and then select the takes.

Pressing T again to switch will not cycle between the empty and non-empty takes.

This can cause strange desyncing of takes across a performance. When combined with Issue #4, this can be disasterous!

There is no alternative because in order for takes to cycle between _performances_ you must manually click each take you want, which is similar to using the "Take: Switch items to next take" shortcut and then manually fixing everything.

Issue #3 - Recording over item splits creates splits in takes

- All settings default.



In this scenario I record over an existing take. Then I record over another part, and repeat this a handful of times to extend the total performance.

If decide that the first take was fine, it requires multiple switching of takes with mouse clicks.

Why mouse clicks? This segues to issue #4.

Issue #4 - Switching Multiple overlapping split takes with shortcut is "broken"

- All settings default. Begin with setup from Issue #3.



After recording, assume that I wish to have the original Take 1 back on top.

I first must select all the takes that encompass Take 1, which is error-prone. Then if I press T n-times (where n is the number of takes), it will cycle to the original take.

If I press T to cycle more times, everything becomes de-synced and it is no longer possible to get Take 1 back without manual editing.

Issue #5 - Determining the active empty take is impossible.

- All settings default. Begin with setup from Issue #2 or Issue #3



This is assuming that empty takes should be switched to (see Issue #2).

When "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" is active, the currently active empty take is not visually identified. Only the "Take n/x" indicates this. This makes visually recognizing the current take selection impossible.

Issue #6 - "Options: Show empty take lanes (align takes by recording pass)" creates a mess.

- All settings default except
- OFF Options: Show empty take lanes (align takes by recording pass)



I've seen this suggested as a solution for various issues, however it almost always makes things worse. It becomes impossible to determine which take belongs to which performance and it cycles differently than "Options: Show empty take lanes (align takes by recording pass)" being ON. Similar issue when using "Item: Remove all empty take lanes".

If you turn this on while an empty take is selected, then you end up with an empty take being shown. Now you reach issue #2 again and your take sequence becomes corrupted. A single take switch and now you must manually attempt to re-assemble your take sequence.

Issue #7 - No way to select multiple takes at once

- Settings irrelevant

As the title says. AFAIK there is no way to select multiple takes in items with only a mouse action. If you wish to select a portion of a performance that has been split over multiple items by the take system (or if you created the splits yourself), it make result in dozens of clicks.

Notable workaround: the default command "Take: Activate take under mouse" is assigned to the key 'Y'. You can hold down Y and move your mouse over the takes. I have found that this is somewhat error prone and not as easy to use as the more common 'box select' paradigm used in millions of pieces of software across the world.

Issue #8 - Comps do not load properly depending on "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" state

- All settings default



Here I have 2 comps saved. One with 8 active takes. One with 3 active takes.

If I load these comps with "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" ON then everything works.

If I load these comps with "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" OFF then comps with empty lanes are not loaded correctly. You can see this in the video where Comp 2 loads and results in 8 total items, instead of 3.

Issue #9 - Grouped items that have been split do not cycle correctly

- All settings default

I've started with 2 tracks recorded together. Group the items.

Now attempt to switch takes. Each time I click a new take "lane", takes are picked up from the new lane. I can see this as potentially] useful in some situations, however it means relying on undo to revert to a previous state. There's no way to revert to the previous take sequence without suspending the group and sequencing it yourself.

Of course, if you turn on "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)", then everything just turns into Joseph's technicolor dreamcoat.
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Last edited by Robert Randolph; 09-03-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:39 PM   #2
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Issue #10 - Takes can not be moved.

- All settings default

Pretty simple. If I have a take that's _nearly_ ok, but needs to be shifted slightly, it's not easily possible. This is often necessary when there's a great take that overlaps the next part and needs to be shifted or time stretched.

Takes can be "slip edited" but this changes the timing of the entire part rather than allowing for overlap editing later.

I would have to explode takes to tracks, then implode them.

Except well... that doesn't work!

Issue #11 - Implode takes does not work unless all items are the same length

- All settings default



Take any of these examples and explode to new tracks. Now try to "Item: Implode items across tracks into items on one track". You won't get the original item back!

If edits need to be made to takes, explode is the only way to get it done, however it's often not possible to implode back to your previous state.

issue #12 - no "solo lane"

- All settings default

if i wish to listen to a single performance when items are split, it's not possible. this makes finding good parts of takes difficult, especially if recorded after the fact.

issue #13 - No way to consolidate items without losing takes

- All settings default

Having items split all over the place makes it difficult to adjust timing or re-arrange parts accurately (without potentially missing that one small bit at the beginning/end).

Currently there is no consistent way to make multiple items behave as one. Group is NOT a solution because multitracked items must be grouped vertically to behave correctly due to Reaper's item grouping paradigm. This means that horizontal grouping is no longer an option.

issue #14 - Item Grouping is incompatible with the Take System

- All settings default

This is an unfortunate circumstance of the fact that Reaper doesn't do "Track Grouping" (where tracks control what edits occur to multiple items, rather than items being grouped). See Issue #13.

Scenario 1 - One track



Moving a single "part" together requires grouping items, since takes caused items to be split.

This requires constantly locking and unlocking takes if you need to still make minor changes, or require takes later in the process.

Changing takes does not respect item selection. Many other tasks only occur in groups IF the items are selected (like moving an item). So groups must be turned on/off. Reselecting the correct items to remake the "part" can be error-prone.

Scenario 2 - Many tracks



When handling multitrack items, like drums, often it's desirable to move entire performances (verse, chorus, bridge, etc...) together.

Using takes requires that splits occur, which means that items must be vertically grouped in order for takes to work across all multitracks.

This means that horizontal grouping is no longer possible, because if you horizontally group a set of items then the vertical grouping is overridden. To fix this, you must use a script like "amagalma_Group selected items vertically". This doesn't always work if you have changed the start of any contained items.

issue #15 - "Take: Delete active take from items" works differently based on "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" state

- All settings default



The action "Take: Delete active take from items" gives different results depending on whether "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" is turned on or off.

issue #16 - Take numbers are not absolute

- All settings default except
- OFF Preferences->Appearance->Media->Draw labels above the item, rather than within the item

https://imgur.com/pRpnDUa

I was unable to find an option or way to adjust this. I feel like I'm missing something.

Currently it's very difficult to make notes about takes (by hand, on paper) and still try to keep your takes organized.

In the video above you can see that when I delete Take 2, I no longer have a "Take 4". So I can not make any reference to that take in any studio documentation because it simply may disappear.

I can't write down the file name either, because every take has the same file name. I do not see "Take number" as a wildcard for Preferences->Audio->Recording->"Filename format for recorded files"


issue #17 - Implode to Takes is broken when using items in lanes

- All settings default



In this example I've recorded (or placed) some items in to Item Lanes. Attempting to implode them to takes does not work correctly. The items are squished, and looped if necessary, in to a single block.

The starting and ending points are not respected, and the end result is a mess.

issue #18 - No easy way to "extract a take"

- All settings default

Common example: There's a cymbal hit at the end of a take. Drummer records everything in a loop and finally nails most of it with a cymbal hit at the end.

That cymbal hit becomes a new take starting at the beginning of the take.

Getting that cymbal hit "out" requires about 4 actions that have the potential to mess up your current item/take sequence.

----------------------

Proposed Solution, and best workaround Use Item Lanes for Takes



Item Lanes are very close to working in a manner that would alleviate many of these issues.

Record parts with Options->New recording that overlaps existing media items->Creates new media item in separate lanes (layers). Now you end up with what's in the image above.

This allows you to freely move items. It solves most of issues (like take naming, comp issues, take grouping, editing, splits in takes, some grouping issues etc..)

There's some problems currently though:
  • Items are not mutually exclusive - The default state is that all items play together. There is no quick way make items muted, and split/unmute things easily as you work. A workflow CAN be created that works with this (and this is what I've been using)
  • Very few actions to work on item lanes/layers - No features to cycle between items as if they were takes is the most important
  • Item colours are not automatically created.
  • No feature for saving a setup other than gluing/rendering the track, disabling and hiding the previous version.
  • No existing features like "Glue to layer".
  • Splitting items causes things to go awry - Go create 3 layers that are not fully overlapping then create some splits. Items become re-ordered (this is surely a bug!)
  • Still no way to solo a single "take" easily other than muting all other layers, or using a script.
  • No "Explode to lanes" feature. This would be very nice to convert existing takes to lanes.
  • Still incompatible with multitrack work. I don't see how this could change. Reaper's "Item Grouping" Paradigm is just... bad.

With a small set up changes, and fixing one or two bugs, this would be a superior alternative to the current takes system. Combined with FIPM, it could be a huge improvement over what other DAWs offer, instead of a much-complained system.

I am in no way saying that these would be easy to implement, but that the number of user-facing changes is rather small. I understand that/if these things may present other non-obvious difficulties.

I also understand that Item Layers are used for normal editing tasks (this is how I work). Showing overlapping items in lanes transitions very nicely to working with performance takes, barring the issues I mentioned.

----------------------

Initial post listing 18 issues.

Once again,I AM NOT INTERESTED IN WORKAROUNDS. I am aware of a lot of workarounds and have a number of scripts I had to write myself to deal with these issues. I don't want to 'work around' things. I want to get work done.

If anyone wishes to give me an easily reproducible example of an issue with the take system, I will add it to the list.

Thank you for reading.
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:40 PM   #3
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:50 PM   #4
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:02 PM   #5
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I think you summed it up nicely
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Issue #10 - Takes can not be moved.

- All settings default

Pretty simple. If I have a take that's _nearly_ ok, but needs to be shifted slightly, it's not easily possible. This is often necessary when there's a great take that overlaps the next part and needs to be shifted or time stretched.

Takes can be "slip edited" but this changes the timing of the entire part rather than allowing for overlap editing later.


I would have to explode takes to tracks, then implode them.

Except well... that doesn't work!
ALT+Drag is specific to the take, not the item. I solve the problem you are describing exactly that way every day FWIW. If I only want to adjust a single note of that single take, then I'll split around it and use the same method. I don't have time to go through them all, many don't affect me in my day to day work with takes (which in itself is interesting being a heavy user of takes and general music production) but there was at least one other I saw that doesn't occur in my setup.

Some of those images are way too large, I use the previous forum theme and they ruin the experience FYI.

Last edited by karbomusic; 09-03-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:54 PM   #7
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ALT+Drag is specific to the take, not the item. I solve the problem you are describing exactly that way every day FWIW. If I only want to adjust a single note of that single take, then I'll split around it and use the same method. I don't have time to go through them all, many don't affect me in my day to day work with takes (which in itself is interesting being a heavy user of takes and general music production) but there was at least one other I saw that doesn't occur in my setup.

Some of those images are way too large, I use the previous forum theme and they ruin the experience FYI.
I'm not talking about when you want a single note of a take. I'm talking about when you want a specific phrase, but that phrase overlaps with the next 'good' phrase.

Slip editing does not fix this, as it simply moves the issue to the beginning of the first take, or the end of then next.

I'm sorry about the images. I'll see what I can do about that.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:05 PM   #8
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I'm not talking about when you want a single note of a take. I'm talking about when you want a specific phrase, but that phrase overlaps with the next 'good' phrase.


My point of single note was an aside but you are correct... there is something I'm not getting because this isn't a problem for me from the perspective of a player performance issue that needs fixing. IOW, I run into the same technical need to fix the "nearly ok" phrase and don't have any issues doing so. I can't comment further because I don't know how what you are fixing is structured....

Quote:
Slip editing does not fix this, as it simply moves the issue to the beginning of the first take, or the end of then next.
We should probably align our terminology... Takes for me is a vertical entity aka more than one attempt/pass of the same section, a "take" at 1 minute then another at 1:30 are punches though each punch could have multiple takes.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:15 PM   #9
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We should probably align our terminology... Takes for me is a vertical entity aka more than one attempt/pass of the same section, a "take" at 1 minute then another at 1:30 are punches though each punch could have multiple takes.
These are both takes in Reaper though.

That's part of what I'm trying to communicate as an issue.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:25 PM   #10
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I agree with most of this, and for #11 I've found that they don't all have to be the same length, but they have to be one item per track (so you have to heal them, otherwise it will be read as a new take), and at least the item in the top track has to be long enough to contain them all, even if it's empty.

I've found it's hell to record in Reaper without a plan if you want to keep anything organized. Now I try my best to have a planned in/out range when recording anything to avoid hours of organizing later.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:31 PM   #11
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These are both takes in Reaper though.

That's part of what I'm trying to communicate as an issue.
I'm sorry, that doesn't help me understand the structure of where you are trying to make the fix. I'm not seeing how a slip edit bleeds into the next take (per your definition of next/prev) if it is a true slip edit.

My goal is to understand what the real problem is. I have to look at it from the recording/musical/editing standpoint as real world which I'm expecting you are as well... "how do I fix this" in the performance. I'm not understanding (yet) where this either isn't possible or where it is somehow lacking based on my experience therefore...

There must be some additional context or assumption I'm unaware of or overlooked, can you help me find that?
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:37 PM   #12
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I'm sorry, that doesn't help me understand the structure of where you are trying to make the fix. I'm not seeing how a slip edit bleeds into the next take (per your definition of next/prev) if it is a true slip edit.

My goal is to understand what the real problem is. I have to look at it from the recording/musical/editing standpoint as real world which I'm expecting you are as well... "how do I fix this" in the performance. I'm not understanding (yet) where this either isn't possible or where it is somehow lacking based on my experience therefore...

There must be some additional context or assumption I'm unaware of or overlooked, can you help me find that?
Yes, I agree.

The issue is that Reaper doesn't allow you to move takes. It has nothing to do with slip editing.

When I'm available at my DAW again, I can provide you a gif showing the difference.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:48 PM   #13
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The issue is that Reaper doesn't allow you to move takes. It has nothing to do with slip editing.
If you mean you can't move take 1, irrespective of take 2, who live in the same container (an item), then no you can't. The reason #10 caught my interest is because I'm in such 'nearly ok' phrase scenarios in takes of all kinds so I'm trying to figure out why #10 has never been a blocker for me.

Edit: We really should separate the terminology between takes, and items which contain takes because calling them the same is going to confuse things greatly. I would say call them items but I call them punches (loosely) because someone could be using FIPM or takes as layers which is also confusing. IOW, we need to separate the vertical ones from the horizontal ones in wordage for clarity IMHO. If someone doesn't understand that difference, they are already headed towards not being able to use them as successfully as they can be. Not you, just sayin.

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Old 09-03-2018, 07:56 PM   #14
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Some of those images are way too large, I use the previous forum theme and they ruin the experience FYI.
I just attempted to fix this. Let me know if this is better.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:02 PM   #15
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It's the last image (Issue #18) which is 3618 pixels wide. I don't think it is cached but can't be 1000% sure.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:03 PM   #16
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I just attempted to fix this. Let me know if this is better.
It's still the same for me Robert, I have to scroll back and forth in order to read everything.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's the last image (Issue #18) which is 3618 pixels wide. I don't think it is cached but can't be 1000% sure.
Oh yeah, I spoke too soon, it's just #18 now.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:13 PM   #18
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This is making me want to start a "vBulletin sucks, but rather than vaguely bitch about it..." thread.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's the last image (Issue #18) which is 3618 pixels wide. I don't think it is cached but can't be 1000% sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
It's still the same for me Robert, I have to scroll back and forth in order to read everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Oh yeah, I spoke too soon, it's just #18 now.
Image 18 fixed.

I went with the %s/.gif/l.gif/g instead of the %s/.(gif|png)/l.\1/g

All good now I think.

Edit: No it's not... my stuff isn't animated anymore!
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:30 PM   #20
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I'm sorry, that doesn't help me understand the structure of where you are trying to make the fix. I'm not seeing how a slip edit bleeds into the next take (per your definition of next/prev) if it is a true slip edit.

My goal is to understand what the real problem is. I have to look at it from the recording/musical/editing standpoint as real world which I'm expecting you are as well... "how do I fix this" in the performance. I'm not understanding (yet) where this either isn't possible or where it is somehow lacking based on my experience therefore...

There must be some additional context or assumption I'm unaware of or overlooked, can you help me find that?
Ok, so I only have a few minutes here. Hopefully this awful example can communicate the issue.

The issue presented is that of quality vs timing.



Take 4 sounds great to me, but the timing is WAY off. So my only resort is to slip edit it. (Assume that all other takes have good timing, even though they don't)

However, in doing so, the next 'hit' is pulled forward. To fix this I need to pull the butt-splice forward to cover that up.

Here's where the issue lies: I can no longer accurately listen to the other takes, as they have had their decay covered up by the butt splice.

If this was something like a cymbal crash, I would have to ruin 4 potentially OK takes simply to try and audition one quality take that was out of time. Trying to now switch between all 5 is not possible.

I know the video is kinda garbage, but it's a quickie to try and demonstrate the issue. I can do a proper video tomorrow if this is not sufficient.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
I just attempted to fix this. Let me know if this is better.
I'm sorry guys. I can't fix this yet. This is the old Theme's issue. I rendered these videos and did not save the originals (why would I?)

It displays correctly with the new theme.

I'll keep looking to see what I can do.
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Old 09-03-2018, 09:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
Ok, so I only have a few minutes here. Hopefully this awful example can communicate the issue.
I get it and I know exactly what you're describing now. It falls under the super-nitpicky for me. I'll give points that it changes your auditioning of other takes but when I am right there in daily real life, I'm going to be done and moved on really quickly because before I need to move that take and subsequent split, I already am past a point where I'd need to care about the fade of the other takes - I move it, listen to the timing not the fade and that part is finished. The order doesn't matter to me, just that evaluating both at the same time isn't needed. IOW, I already know which fades work best before I decide to edit the timing of the one take - because the very first time I hear each of those fades, I've made a judgment call about them. Can't fully kick it to the curb since I'm sure that is just one example but it does show some of why it's not something I'd ever hit beyond the rare case.

Hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to piss on it, it's just so many of these don't affect me and was wondering why; at least I see why for some of them.

As far as the large image and theme issues you can call that super nitpicky as well. It's just an animated GIF though, anything that can resize that without tossing frames would do it.

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Old 09-03-2018, 10:27 PM   #23
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#3 it seems to make sense to assign the new data to different existing items and hence they need to be split (which does not harm the recorded audio and supposedly the splits can be healed later, if the items are cleaned to a single remaining take and can combined appropriately).

#10, #14 -> "Free Item Positioning"

How does "comping" add to the picture ?

-Michael (very rarely using such stuff)
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Old 09-03-2018, 11:30 PM   #24
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Thanks for taking the time to point these out.

Have't even started to use takes, but some of these are plain awful.
I only really record guitar these days, but because I'm not a big user of takes doesn't mean I don't hope most of these will be fixed.

Anything that messes up the timing of the takes that's associated with takes for instance, or randomly changes take names, not good.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:04 AM   #25
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I agree this nees overhaul.

It seems you have overlooked option "Allow selecting empty take lanes". With that checked my takes cycle well.
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Old 09-04-2018, 03:16 AM   #26
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Great post Robert! Yes this need an overhaul for sure.
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:39 AM   #27
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Have to confess I tend to avoid the reaper takes system purely because it is (for me) less trouble just to record a bunch of tracks that are takes and then "comp" my final take from there like I would on an old fashioned tape machine, cutting and splicing.
But for those of us wha are used to using a "proper" digital takes system, I can see where it is kinda klunky in many areas.
Let us hope the devs havent painted themselves into a corner where radically overhauling takes is not really feasible.
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:59 AM   #28
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do we have examples of other DAWs doing the opposite to see how it could work?
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:08 AM   #29
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Youtube is filled with such videos
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:08 AM   #30
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links?
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:41 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
I agree this nees overhaul.

It seems you have overlooked option "Allow selecting empty take lanes". With that checked my takes cycle well.
Thank you for the suggestion, but I hadn't overlooked that because that's on by default
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:49 AM   #32
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@Robert Randolph

If you do not like it, you should not use it ... typical bedroom rock star reaper fanatic reaction. I'm kidding. You're right about take system. Reaper mentality does not want to change. If Reaper decides to change, it will be a monster.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:52 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
#3 it seems to make sense to assign the new data to different existing items and hence they need to be split (which does not harm the recorded audio and supposedly the splits can be healed later, if the items are cleaned to a single remaining take and can combined appropriately).
The issue is that it now requires potentially MANY clicks to restore a previous take, or part of a previous take.

Here's a some relatively common examples that I've experienced:

Scenario #1
  • Drummer comes in, does his parts, possibly loop recorded to takes.
  • They decide everything is fine.
  • I comp the parts best I can.
  • Guitarist has a brilliant idea to add some rhythmic variation to a handful of notes a couple days later. Possibly his part has a comp done on it.
  • Drummer needs to overdub a new part, likely multiple times.

Scenario #2
  • Drummer comes in, does his parts, possibly loop recorded to takes.
  • I comp the drum parts while the bassist gets ready.
  • Drummer hears his part and decides that the best comp isn't up to his satisfaction (Then play better, duh!)
  • So now I have to punch-in new takes over the existing parts that do sound good, possibly loop recorded.

Now what do I have? A huge mess of split items with varying empty lanes, take numbers that don't align.

It becomes impossibly to sanely deal with. When dealing with multitrack drums, these issues are all compounded even further due to the grouping system.

These are just 2 scenarios, and it IS POSSIBLE TO WORKAROUND THEM. I don't care. I don't think that any software should rely so heavily on workarounds for such a core feature.

Quote:
#10, #14 -> "Free Item Positioning"

How does "comping" add to the picture ?

-Michael (very rarely using such stuff)
FIPM does not fix 10 and 14. FIPM only allows you to move the item. The takes that are contained inside are still linked in position.

EDIT: Post #666. Is this destiny?
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:56 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
This is making me want to start a "vBulletin sucks, but rather than vaguely bitch about it..." thread.
Use REAPER 5 theme, it fits images to screen.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
do we have examples of other DAWs doing the opposite to see how it could work?
I thought about this, and ED can attest to me taking extra time to discuss this with some other folks.

I don't think that the me-too philosophy (which is invariably brought in when mentioning other DAWs) is useful to discussion. I don't think that it respects the work of the Reaper developers.

Yes, there's some other DAWs that handle this significantly better and don't deal with these issues. Yes, Reaper could potentially learn from that, but it could also be just as well that the authors are aware of that and avoided it for some intelligent reason.

I'm not at all interested in even implying that the Reaper developers follow the lead of someone else. I'm confident that if the issues are brought up, then they can adjust the system to better suit the needs of users.

I think that this entire discussion can be had without mentioning any other product, and in doing so would be more respectful and more productive.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:22 AM   #36
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To me this is rather core DAW functionality.
I've whined about the take-system before,
but, then just learned to live with it.

Never lost 90hours though..

Studio One has a neat solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg4d0mXRxvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S-2x0VdH1Y
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I get it and I know exactly what you're describing now. It falls under the super-nitpicky for me. I'll give points that it changes your auditioning of other takes but when I am right there in daily real life, I'm going to be done and moved on really quickly because before I need to move that take and subsequent split, I already am past a point where I'd need to care about the fade of the other takes - I move it, listen to the timing not the fade and that part is finished. The order doesn't matter to me, just that evaluating both at the same time isn't needed. IOW, I already know which fades work best before I decide to edit the timing of the one take - because the very first time I hear each of those fades, I've made a judgment call about them. Can't fully kick it to the curb since I'm sure that is just one example but it does show some of why it's not something I'd ever hit beyond the rare case.

Hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to piss on it, it's just so many of these don't affect me and was wondering why; at least I see why for some of them.

I understand what you're saying in how you avoid this issue, but you're missing a key component here, and I assume that's my fault for not communicating it clearly.

Sometimes it's necessary to move takes around to adjust the timing before evaluating the quality.

So maybe there's a take that sounds nearly perfect. The singer hit the note, the drummer hit the snare right, the bassist didn't fall over in his chair, etc... BUT the timing is just slightly off.

In order to properly evaluate that potentially perfect take against all others in that take stack, it needs to be time shifted. Then I can check and make sure it actually fits inside the track. Then I can start comping.

And may the Lord help you if you had comps done already, you did a punch-in to a take, and the take you need to shift was recorded over a split. Now you're really in trouble. Slip editing won't save you in this case even if it was appropriate.

Yes, I understand that there's workarounds, but they are all extra work, require you to settle for a non-optimal result or are a source of errors immediately or down the line. Neither of those things are something that's acceptable in a working studio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
As far as the large image and theme issues you can call that super nitpicky as well. It's just an animated GIF though, anything that can resize that without tossing frames would do it.
I think that currently it should look ok? I adjusted some sizes.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:34 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
FIPM does not fix 10 and 14. FIPM only allows you to move the item. The takes that are contained inside are still linked in position.
A recent video by Kenny shows how "sub-items" within track can be created and moved to be in the same time range and placed visually above each others, looking very similar to takes.

Maybe this option provide a way as a workalike to takes in #10 and #14, and elsewhere.

-Michael
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
I don't think that the me-too philosophy (which is invariably brought in when mentioning other DAWs) is useful to discussion. I don't think that it respects the work of the Reaper developers.
Great point !

If something is supposed to be improved it should be the result of a discussion and perfectly fin in the context of the Reaper kind of workflow.

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Old 09-04-2018, 06:41 AM   #40
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Issue 17 and Scenario 2 are both as wide as my screen, and Proposed Solution is twice that.
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