Old 11-12-2018, 04:36 AM   #1
SymboliC
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Default CC Automation Problem with ReaControlMIDI

Hi,

On my midi tracks I'm automating MIDI CC11 Expression with ReaControlMIDI.

The problem is, if the automation point shape is square, instead of linear, the value isn't followed by ReaControlMIDI, unless I start the piece from where the first square point is set, which is where the value changes.

This makes it inconvenient since I have to make it start from i.e. 20 bars before(where the value is changed) to hear how it sounds as it reaches at the actual point.

With the linear shape, I don't have such a problem, since it continuously changes the value and sets itself accordingly.

Thanks,
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:15 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
On my midi tracks I'm automating MIDI CC11 Expression with ReaControlMIDI.

The problem is, if the automation point shape is square, instead of linear, the value isn't followed by ReaControlMIDI, unless I start the piece from where the first square point is set, which is where the value changes.

This makes it inconvenient since I have to make it start from i.e. 20 bars before(where the value is changed) to hear how it sounds as it reaches at the actual point.

With the linear shape, I don't have such a problem, since it continuously changes the value and sets itself accordingly.
Hi SymboliC, I don't use ReaControlMIDI, I use the CC lanes in the midi editor, so I'm not sure about this.

What happens if you add the same CC11 values to the envelope in the places where you'd like to start play. I'm talking
about just ahead of where you want to start play.

It works fine to do that in the midi editor using CC controllers.
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi SymboliC, I don't use ReaControlMIDI, I use the CC lanes in the midi editor, so I'm not sure about this.

What happens if you add the same CC11 values to the envelope in the places where you'd like to start play. I'm talking
about just ahead of where you want to start play.

It works fine to do that in the midi editor using CC controllers.
Hi Tod,

With linear points or curves or with linear increase, there isn't such a problem as I've mentioned before. It updates correctly.

I just want to make sure if this is a VST instrument specific problem or a Reaper problem. I found out that regardless of instruments/libraries, it always does the same. Below is the visual description of the problem.



I'll be glad if someone clarifies if this is a ReaControlMIDI or a Reaper issue in general or if there is an option with envelopes that I'm overlooking.

Cheers,
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:50 PM   #4
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It's not a ReaControlMIDI issue, it's just how MIDI works. Each change in value is the result of a single MIDI message. Unless you receive the message, the value will remain the same as whatever the previous message was, which is why you have to scroll back 20 bars. As Tod suggests, add another data point just before the section you are interested in, if possible.
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Waster View Post
It's not a ReaControlMIDI issue, it's just how MIDI works. Each change in value is the result of a single MIDI message. Unless you receive the message, the value will remain the same as whatever the previous message was, which is why you have to scroll back 20 bars. As Tod suggests, add another data point just before the section you are interested in, if possible.
Thank you for the clarification Time Waster,
I also thought that might logically be the case, just wanted to make sure.

Cheers,
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:16 AM   #6
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Yeah but this is host automation, not MIDI (it does eventually get sent as MIDI, but yeah). It SHOULD chase it even if you start from somewhere on that square segment.

EDIT: Actually trying this now over here, as I move the edit cursor around, I do see the value chased properly? All square points.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-16-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 11-16-2018, 06:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah but this is host automation, not MIDI (it does eventually get sent as MIDI, but yeah). It SHOULD chase it even if you start from somewhere on that square segment.

EDIT: Actually trying this now over here, as I move the edit cursor around, I do see the value chased properly? All square points.
Hey EvilDragon,

Actually after seeing your post I tried several other things if this has got something to do with my setup...

I experienced even some more weirdness...

When the suggested track is played with those square differences, it's as if it is added to "cache" or being rendered. So, after the first playing, it correctly grabs values even if I start playing the piece from in the middle of those square values... so far so good...

BUT,

once I mute the track, and play around with another track in the mean time and come back again to the supposed track, it again refuses to get the values at the first playthrough...

It's as if it's needing at least one "pass" in order to store those values inside MIDI data...

I'm more confused as it really acts randomly in my case...

Cheers,
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:50 AM   #8
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Hi EvilDragon,

Today I've seen a new level of weirdness with my issue and realized that it doesn't only have something to do with square points. It also reflects the same behavior with linear values if the so-called value is adjusted immediately at the beginning of the track from bar 1.1.000.
Below is the screenshot I'm talking about.



I just went over and want to hear what I did with the song. I pressed space and my ears were blown by the expression being like around 127. I immediately stopped playing the piece, tried it second time, the same.
But, just after my third attempt of playing the piece, the value was correctly triggered as how it should be.

What might be causing this strange behaviour as I identify it in a way "cache". I identify it this way because, it stops doing this after consecutive tries, yet, when I leave the work alone for 5-10 mins and come back, need to press play 2-3 times again for it to capture the true values in the expression/volume etc. envelopes...

It looks like this is a BUG, since it behaves randomly. But since, I cannot find what causing this(Reaper, ReaControlMIDI or Kontakt), I cannot also open a thread with claiming it's a bug.

BTW, I'm using Reaper v5.961.

Cheers,
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Old 11-20-2018, 01:09 PM   #9
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This is bizarre. I cannot duplicate that here at all...
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Old 11-21-2018, 08:26 PM   #10
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Definitely use 5.962 -- there's a bug in 5.961's ReaControlMIDI that could lead to unpredictable behavior.
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Old 11-22-2018, 05:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Definitely use 5.962 -- there's a bug in 5.961's ReaControlMIDI that could lead to unpredictable behavior.
Hey Justin,

Thank you for the suggestion. Indeed, last night, just before seeing your reply, I checked for the updates and saw that there is a newer version and also have seen that a line that says there's a fix which addresses ReaControlMIDI issues with memory (at least what I got from the twitter source).

Now, I'm going to do the installation and hopefully will see if this makes it go away.
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Old 11-22-2018, 08:50 AM   #12
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Just to inform,

Despite installing the latest update, the problem still persists.
This is really frustrating since I cannot adjust and make sure of my expression/volume levels as needed and it misleads me with my overall mix.

EDIT : Any recommendations for free and lightweight screen/audio capturing freeware that I can record this problem as a proof so that it gets the attention? It's weird no one else is having the problem but me and it's really annoying when trying to adjust the dynamics of the overall song, not even talking about the probability of the piece being rendered incorrectly.

Thanks,
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Last edited by SymboliC; 11-22-2018 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 11-22-2018, 08:52 AM   #13
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I still cannot reproduce this issue over here.
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
Despite installing the latest update, the problem still persists.
This is really frustrating since I cannot adjust and make sure of my expression/volume levels as needed and it misleads me with my overall mix.
As we discussed in your other thread SymboliC, your Reaper might be corrupted.

You might want to think about that Portable install. It's pretty simple and if you don't want it, you only have one folder to delete.

Quote:
EDIT : Any recommendations for free and lightweight screen/audio capturing freeware that I can record this problem as a proof so that it gets the attention? It's weird no one else is having the problem but me and it's really annoying when trying to adjust the dynamics of the overall song, not even talking about the probability of the piece being rendered incorrectly.
Reaper has it's own LICcap that captures gif files. I tried to find the link but no luck, maybe someone else can provide that.

Reaper also has Stash where you can upload your files.

https://stash.reaper.fm/
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:06 AM   #15
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LICEcap won't help with capturing the audio output, which seems to be the most important thing about this issue, tho.
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
As we discussed in your other thread SymboliC, your Reaper might be corrupted.

You might want to think about that Portable install. It's pretty simple and if you don't want it, you only have one folder to delete.



Reaper has it's own LICcap that captures gif files. I tried to find the link but no luck, maybe someone else can provide that.

Reaper also has Stash where you can upload your files.

https://stash.reaper.fm/

Hi Tod,

Actually I'm not reinstalling Reaper because I'm not still sure whether this happens because of a mistake/change in settings that I did somewhere else or it's a bug/corruption issue on its own.

I'll try to capture/record the problem and see if someone might come up with an answer.

But, OTOH, because of my MIDI editor issues I might consider doing a fresh install...

Cheers,
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I still cannot reproduce this issue over here.
Hi EvilDragon,

Do you know if Bandicam Demo version can capture the audio produced by Reaper? Does it work this way in real-time?

Thanks,
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
Hi EvilDragon,

Do you know if Bandicam Demo version can capture the audio produced by Reaper? Does it work this way in real-time?

Thanks,
I use Movavi, it works pretty well. They do have a free version for you to try, I'm not sure of what the restrictions are, but it does record video and audio.

https://www.movavi.com/movavi-screen...asrc=main_menu
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I use Movavi, it works pretty well. They do have a free version for you to try, I'm not sure of what the restrictions are, but it does record video and audio.

https://www.movavi.com/movavi-screen...asrc=main_menu
Thanks Tod,

I'll give it a try. I don't think I'll need expanded features since my clip will consist of 5 to 10 seconds at most...

Cheers,
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Old 11-25-2018, 04:42 PM   #20
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Hmm capturing the audio output is probably unnecessary, what'd be better is to put a JS MIDI logger downstream and show the output there
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