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Old 05-30-2012, 12:25 PM   #1
Acall
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Default Simulating rooms, mixing a virtual Orchestra

Hey guys!
I've been composing for orchestra for years, but I'm never fully satisfied with my mockups. To me they're always lacking some (stereo) depth. Specifically I'm trying to get an effect similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpjO4...A0D1FA35F7AD48
I know he's using Altiverb, for which I don't have the budget right now. However, I have a ton of IR samples and I love using ReaVerb & Reverberate LE, together with NI Reflektor (which is sadly a CPU hog). What's your technique to get the right depth-effect for the instrument groups?

Secondly - and this is only for IKM experts - I'm looking for a specific SampleTank Patch, which sounds like this: http://www.mediafire.com/?9i6vdy26f9dllv6
I've composed this years ago and have sinced moved my studio and switched computers multiple times, plus I haven't used SampleTank in a long while, so I forgot mostly about it.
Now however I'd love to use this as my main patch for direct-mic'd sustained low strings. I suspect it's the "Compressed Strings" patch in the Strings/Orchestral folder, but I don't remember the ASDHR/Compressor/EQ settings I used for this. Anything you guys can point me to?

Acall

Last edited by Acall; 05-30-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:37 PM   #2
DarkStar
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ST2 query - posted on the IK Multimedia forum to see if they can help.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #3
Acall
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Thank you very much, DarkStar! You're right of course, I probably should've taken this to IK themselves. Thank you for taking the effort and posting it for me.

Still anxious for some answers to my other question...
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acall View Post
Still anxious for some answers to my other question...
Hi Acall, are you using true stereo impulses?

I've not pursued the stage positioning technique but I think using delay as well as verb is one way of doing it, not sure. I'd like to pursue this myself someday when I have some time.

In the mean time this forum gets into this quite often.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/inde...718b4d9117664a
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:21 PM   #5
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Hey Acall. Lots of great advice here, but here is a different approach. While I love to use as many supplied effects with any vsti, as they are theoretically designed to work with them well, I always record my orchestra vsti's dry and labor over the "room" feel with external plugins. Often I will use the same setting on one of my favorite reverbs, like Valhalla Room, and use separate instances of the setting as a send for each instrument group. Then I go in and work on the panning for each group instance until the placement is close to how I want it. Then I go to each individual reverb instance and slightly change them so they are close to the same setting, but a little different to give each group a unique placement in the created "room". This is NOT a quick process, but I like things to sound great. Especially orchestral arrangements that stand out and are not buried in some epic rock song or soundtrack, I like the environment to sound as real as the music. Hope that helps a little.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #6
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Creating a 'realistic' orchestra is an upcoming project that I'll be working on ... so interest is high

The first thing that should be considered from the onset ...

How are the individual instruments in this 'orchestra' being performed and tracked ?? If we are talking VSTi sample libraries, then a whole NEW set of conditions need to be considered.

This 'sound set' decision would be fundamental. I'm not only speaking to the qualities of the sample library, the articulations/ dynamics in the performance, but critically ... the specific handling of all the instruments.

Questions like ... 'Are the 1st violin section being worked as a single patch? OR, are EACH violin IN that section being worked as a single entity, until the entire section is built ?

This important decision as to the source material needs to be dealt with first, before any 'acoustical sound stage' treatment.

Over the past 30 some years, a variety of 'techniques' have been experimented, with varied success.

For my related project, we are still in the early discussion stages. The are several concepts that I'd like to utilize in this project. I am NOT sure if the client will comprehend the meticulous details, nor prepared to the work load and time requirements. The fundamental question ... how 'real' do you want it [short of booking an orchestra in an appropriate hall].

Look forward to the conversation here, and hope that I can provide constructive observation/comment.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:13 AM   #7
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Reverberate vst...

I am not an orchestral composer by any means but it would be hard to imagine something you could not do with that fx and there are some wonderful and free IR's for it. Don't have the link at the moment but it's easy to google for and for the IR's.

Low budget too...

PS... I'd offer that if you have enjoyed ST for this work, you'd likely go bonkers with Native Instruments Kontakt5, and even with just the factory content lib's that come with it, not to mention the other lib's that exist.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:39 AM   #8
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i have been to one real orchestra performance since i started learning to record and stuff. they dont use amplifiers or compressors, and the room doesn't hit you over the head either. depending on where you sit, the instruments might not be pointed at you in your face 100% of the time, and in fact your ears might be in a bad position to hear the piano and etc.

but maybe there is some sort of convention of engineers who have agreed how recorded orchestras should sound. the recordings are nothing like the real thing however, which sounds extremely delicate. the room is usually filled with white haired people so its not like a slayer concert or an echoplex.

simulating rooms is hard because the final result will probably be played in a room too.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:37 PM   #9
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Being a frequent concert goer and classical composer, I know that it's nearly impossible to create a virtual orchestra that could compete with the sound of any actual professional orchestra. Trying to achieve it anyway is a whole other thing of course Especially when you compose for movies/TV and a big ensemble that you don't have the budget to hire and record in a studio. So I mostly resort to using orchestral libraries to produce my scores.
After creating this thread I actually went back to one of my old orchestral transcriptions of everybody's favorite soundtrack, translated it into MIDI and produced it in REAPER with a newer method to simulate the orchestral space. Here it is. Mind you, it's "just" one day of work and I'm still not entirely satisfied. However, I think it has now definetly more depth to it...
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acall View Post
Being a frequent concert goer and classical composer, I know that it's nearly impossible to create a virtual orchestra that could compete with the sound of any actual professional orchestra. Trying to achieve it anyway is a whole other thing of course Especially when you compose for movies/TV and a big ensemble that you don't have the budget to hire and record in a studio. So I mostly resort to using orchestral libraries to produce my scores.
After creating this thread I actually went back to one of my old orchestral transcriptions of everybody's favorite soundtrack, translated it into MIDI and produced it in REAPER with a newer method to simulate the orchestral space. Here it is. Mind you, it's "just" one day of work and I'm still not entirely satisfied. However, I think it has now definetly more depth to it...
That's actually pretty convincing, I think. It definitely is getting closer to the live orchestral ambiance than many other attempts I have heard. I do quite a bit of midi based orchestral arrangements, and always try to remain faithful to a real scenario. But honestly, I tend to do these for bigger and not all orchestral projects, so the issue of creating the virtual room or performance space is very different. This is very nice, good work! Maybe you could somehow share with us how you achieved this sound....?
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:38 AM   #11
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I've been doing a lot of orchestral scores mixing. Mainly done with VSTi's. Establishing depth is a struggle, but I've found some solutions that could help.

First of all it's very important how you play your sounds in terms of velocities - don't play them at full velocities, tend to go on the softer side. That way you'll have a 'better material' for establishing depth. Otherwise you're gonna deal with overly bright and thin sounds with too much attack.

Next, learn the main two parts of reverbs - early and late reflections. Early reflections are there to give you the sense of space and positioning and late reflections or tails will just enhance the sense of the bigness. Predelay plays a big part in that.

Also, it's very important to kind of mimic how real orchestra is recorded - you have OH mics that pick up the overall sound of the orchestra (think of it as a main reverb) and spot mics to give instruments definition.

Eqing is important in depth department - learn how frequencies behave when instrument is positioned closer or farther.

And yes, don't be scared to use compression Helps a ton.
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Old 06-02-2012, 06:29 AM   #12
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When having stereo samples of many different instruments I found a way that works really well to place them anywhere I want i stereo field - and narrow each part to anything you want.

Waves S1, or other stereo manipulation plugs will allow this without causing frequency cancelling effects.

My first experiment was the leslie simulation for B4 organ which was full stereo width and this does not fit very well in a mix.

I could place the leslie in any more narrow spot I wanted. Really nice.
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