Old 08-20-2008, 03:00 PM   #1
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default The Mouse Zone Editor

No matter how cool and clever a developer is, pleasing all is very difficult. This idea has been suggested by at least a dozen of my fellow editors. All had a similar complaint of all the DAWs that ever existed. They couldn't tell the DAW what their mouse should do. It was always the DAW telling them.

Here's an idea to change that. This picture (119kB) tells it all.



For transitioning purposes, many configurations could be included. Reaper Default, Logic Audio, Vegas, Audacity, Protools, Digital Performer...., it would ease the transition for other users immensely. After a time they would start to shape their own way of working, which we're already doing a lot anyway, but the mouse isn't part of that. It only has a few toggles.

-edit-
The red area description uses Level: Top, when it should use Priority: Highest. Error on my part.
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom

Last edited by airon; 08-20-2008 at 03:33 PM.
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2008, 03:09 PM   #2
gregh
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 928
Default

A very nice idea that really exploits the potential of computing for user-configurable interaction.

Last edited by gregh; 08-20-2008 at 03:16 PM.
gregh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2008, 03:16 PM   #3
plush2
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Saskatoon, Canada
Posts: 2,110
Default

+1, it could remain the same as it is now but it could also be tailored to various work-flows. Win, win as I see it.
plush2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2008, 03:41 PM   #4
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

this would be a wonderful addition IMHO and a hefty step along the path towards world dawmination.

.t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2008, 04:43 PM   #5
Bevosss
Human being with feelings
 
Bevosss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney Oz
Posts: 8,480
Default

Cool idea Airon! ++1
Bevosss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2008, 06:13 PM   #6
Xenakios
Human being with feelings
 
Xenakios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 8,062
Default

Yes, this would be a very good way to deal with many things that people may find difficult and/or irritating in Reaper!

++1
__________________
I am no longer part of the REAPER community. Please don't contact me with any REAPER-related issues.
Xenakios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 02:13 AM   #7
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

This reminds me of the Sonar 7 'smart midi tool' or whatsitcalled.

Same thing as you describe, just restricted to the PRV. That's a very nice feature and brings the mouse to it' max without feeling 'tooly'. Would be a great enhancement for workflow, speed and customizing.

++1 for the smart mouse customizer for items, envelopes and in the PRV.

Perhaps another pic of the Sonar tool configuration window (german version, but you get the direction) helps describing the idea though it indeed just repeats what you already showed.



Sonar' s method doesn't include customizing the Mouse Zones themselves which would be awesome.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2008, 10:11 AM   #8
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
This reminds me of the Sonar 7 'smart midi tool' or whatsitcalled.

Same thing as you describe, just restricted to the PRV. That's a very nice feature and brings the mouse to it' max without feeling 'tooly'. Would be a great enhancement for workflow, speed and customizing.

++1 for the smart mouse customizer for items, envelopes and in the PRV.

Perhaps another pic of the Sonar tool configuration window (german version, but you get the direction) helps describing the idea though it indeed just repeats what you already showed.



Sonar' s method doesn't include customizing the Mouse Zones themselves which would be awesome.

I'd submit to a little bloat for something like that in return!

.t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 12:35 AM   #9
mio*star
Human being with feelings
 
mio*star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 46°31'20.67"N - 6°37'6.47"E
Posts: 803
Default Airon for president

Airon, you rock !

++1
__________________
www.royalstudios.net
mio*star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 01:19 AM   #10
hourglass
Human being with feelings
 
hourglass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK.
Posts: 356
Default

+1....................
__________________
i was going to write something witty. but this is here instead.

>> random thoughts about the world, digested into bitesize bloggy chunks
>> doubledotdash!? collective - hear tunes!
hourglass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 02:24 PM   #11
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

Ok, here's a mockup of what such an editor could look like. Please leave comments on what you think needs to be different/added/deleted.

__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom

Last edited by airon; 08-25-2008 at 02:45 PM.
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 02:57 PM   #12
boka
Human being with feelings
 
boka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hungary,Europe
Posts: 800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Ok, here's a mockup of what such an editor could look like. Please leave comments on what you think needs to be different/added/deleted.


A hitbox editor... awesome! +1 ! I hope to see this in Reaper some time in the near future!
__________________
15" Retina MBP, Adobe CC, UA Apollo
boka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 03:05 PM   #13
Kainer
Human being with feelings
 
Kainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cologne/Bangkok
Posts: 1,258
Default

++1

I love the idea of reaper as totaly configurable for my own workflow.

everything that makes it possible to save mouseclicks and way to go on my screen is great!

cool idea!
__________________
I am old here

http://kainerweissmann.de
Kainer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 03:38 PM   #14
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

nice!



.t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #15
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
nice!



.t
That's an understatement... that's G-r-reat!
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 03:48 PM   #16
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
That's an understatement... that's G-r-reat!

it is nice as an idea.
Like Brice's ideas are nice.

and just as Brice's ideas are also nice, this and those would be

uberGREAT if the cockos boys ran with it.
.t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 03:50 PM   #17
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Now, that looks complete. Love the custom modifier and cursor icon department.

Dunno, wouldn't an indicator of which mousebutton you're assigning handy as well? Last feature I could think of would be to include doubleclicks somehow, but it's killer enough as is.

Want it in the PRV, too. Gimmegimmegimme! With the complete action list as functions, including custom actions of course.


And a helicopter.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 04:36 PM   #18
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

The mouse buttons. I knew I'd forgotten a small detail. New version incoming.
--edit--
Here it is. Mouse buttons and the action list. Font of the Function and Actionlist are now Tahoma 11.

Selecting a zone and then editing its mouse cursor gfx, function and size parameters would be a good start. For me though, the easiest way to handle these zones, is to drag'n'drop shapes, colours, functions and actions. The shapes requires being able to drag these two primitive shapes around. The triangle is included for the corners. Shapes should snap to the borders of the item/non-item zone.

==edit==
Updated with some changed heading text (New Shape becomes Zone Shape for example), the non-item zone now has new zones as well(see below why), and the editor now has Apply, Ok and Cancel buttons.

The new zones in the non-item zone are meant to facilitate crossfades(orange on both non-item and item-zones) and creating fades PLUS trimming out with a default fade length, but those are merely suggestions.

__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom

Last edited by airon; 08-25-2008 at 08:25 PM.
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 09:42 PM   #19
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

well this kind of flexibility of control is to dream of.
it would allow for a such a complete personal customization of workflow.

I hope that this gets some serious consideration, and soon than later

greetings
,t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 12:25 AM   #20
hourglass
Human being with feelings
 
hourglass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK.
Posts: 356
Default

anything that gets us closer to being able to customise mouse clicks, drags, and the like is a VERY GOOD THING.

another +1!

__________________
i was going to write something witty. but this is here instead.

>> random thoughts about the world, digested into bitesize bloggy chunks
>> doubledotdash!? collective - hear tunes!
hourglass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 03:00 AM   #21
White Tie
Pixel Pusher
 
White Tie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
Default

Deeply, deeply cool.

Can I suggest that the biggest button be a big button marked big with "Reset to Default"? Because you know that clueless preference fiddlers (bless 'em) are gonna get that into a right old mess
White Tie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 04:05 AM   #22
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Ok, another thing missing, related to what WT wrote: We will want to save and load settings for the custom mouse.
It is a huge mass of options and I know I will be glad to be able to revert to one that worked for me when I mess something up because of some 'genial' idea showing to be crap in real life.

And it will allow for task optimized mouse settings to be shared between users.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 05:54 AM   #23
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

Thanks fellas.

Both of you are right of course. I just hadn't gotten around to integrating those functions. I should mention that the semi-transparent backgrounds were BeatByBits idea. Thank you for any ideas coming this way.

A nice big happy Reset To Defaults button is coming up. I reckon the file operations should be placed where people expect them in Windows, the top left.

... and here's the result:



We just need to convince the master control programmers of this idea now .
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom

Last edited by airon; 08-26-2008 at 06:24 AM.
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 06:21 AM   #24
Kainer
Human being with feelings
 
Kainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cologne/Bangkok
Posts: 1,258
Default

great work airon!

I wish this last sentence would have come from justin, christoph or schwa

maybe we see it in the future, I hope so... but I believe this is a huge thing.
__________________
I am old here

http://kainerweissmann.de
Kainer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 07:36 AM   #25
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

I forgot to mention how this editor could function. There are two ways I see so far, and everyone should feel free to suggest other methods.

1. Drag'n'Dropping

The user picks up elements like mouse cursors, colours and functions, and just throws them on to the existing zones. Any zones the user requires but that don't yet exist can be created by dragged in from from the shape list.

2. Manual Selection and Editing

The user clicks on one of the zones, it is highlighted, along with its chosen mouse cursor, function and colour, if it has them. These can be edited by clicking on other choices.

Sharing Sets and Zones

The Actionlist showed that people do like sharing small action sets, so it may only natural to let users import and export Layers.

The Import and Export buttons in the Layers section lets you do that. The Zone Sets file operations are named "Open", "Save" and "Save As" because they save a set of all layers, which in turn contain the zones. These zone sets are documents, not snippets thereof, like single layers.

Mouse Cursors and File Operations

PNG files with transparency. Reaper would save these mouse cursors either in the zone set files, like it does with VST plugin presets, or save the zone sets as single layer files along with the mouse cursor graphic files, and perhaps even zip them up in to a .zoneset file, Open-Office-style. A directory and zoneset file with the name could be a good choice as well, similar to the colour themes. In that case, a central zone set file would point to all the needed files in a directory specified in the zone set file itself. All the relevant layer files would be stored there, which would also make it easier to separate and reuse them in other sets without having to use the editor.

Actions instead of Functions

The action list is pretty big, so it's a good idea to give the action list in the zone editor as much space as possible, when you're looking for something. Included in this update of the mockup is the filter textbox and an "Editor" button, which opens up the Action Window.

Size and Priority

What happens when the tracks are really small ? Here is where you set that up. You can give zones priorities, of which there are three: low, medium and top.

An example:

In the no-modifier Layer, the trim zones in the middle of the edges(one at each side of the item) should have always work. Thus you specify a minimum size of 40 pixels in height, and a minimum width of 20 pixels. There are other zones at the edge of the item such as those for the fades in the upper corners, and you give them a lower priority than the trim zones. Thus no matter what is set up in the other zones, the trim zones will always work. As the track gets smaller the other zones are covered by the trim zones, whose minimum size begins to cover the whole track height.

Other ideas

Let's hear them. Anything that works better gets my vote.

The updated image with all the stuff talked about in this post :

__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 07:52 AM   #26
Till
Human being with feelings
 
Till's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany's California
Posts: 1,543
Default

+1, but what about faded zones?
__________________
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 / 2 GB / WinXP Pro SP2 / EMU 0404 USB

"Recording is God's way of telling you that you suck." - Bob Brozman

My Jesusonic FX - Xenakios' Extension

REAPER FR Tracker - what is that?

The "How Stuff works in REAPER": video blog
Till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 08:01 AM   #27
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

Zones need to be absolute in the area they cover. Or did you mean something else ?
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 10:04 AM   #28
beatbybit
Human being with feelings
 
beatbybit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hungary
Posts: 3,129
Default

this would be amazing to have!


+10000000000000
__________________
panda in the desert
beatbybit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 01:57 PM   #29
irium
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 38
Default

++1 yes, I like this idea!!!
irium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 06:44 PM   #30
Shan
Human being with feelings
 
Shan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,279
Default

+1

Shane
__________________
"Music should be performed by the musician not by the engineer."

Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM
Shan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 09:23 AM   #31
Till
Human being with feelings
 
Till's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany's California
Posts: 1,543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Zones need to be absolute in the area they cover. Or did you mean something else ?
item crossfades
__________________
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 / 2 GB / WinXP Pro SP2 / EMU 0404 USB

"Recording is God's way of telling you that you suck." - Bob Brozman

My Jesusonic FX - Xenakios' Extension

REAPER FR Tracker - what is that?

The "How Stuff works in REAPER": video blog
Till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 07:47 PM   #32
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

Crossfade functions don't exit yet, if you leave out Xenakios extension that is. If they did exist I'd place the at the bottom corners of the item, like Protools has. That works nicely for me. Xens extension is another good way of doing it.

I've been told a mouse zone editor is unlikely to be done before 3.0, so we need to keep this idea in mind until then, but still add improvements whenever a good idea crops up. I consider this to be the most workflow-friendly idea I've had the pleasure of drawing up so far. A lot of engineers want this for their DAWs and Reaper, and everyone here that have read about it and seen the mockup of a possible editor agree as well.

Add any suggestions you have, and we'll see if they can be integrated in to the mockup. I can post the source to the mockup as well if anyone wants to try and improve it themselves. It was made with the Firefox extension "Pencil".
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2008, 02:34 PM   #33
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

Here's an idea for the developers to consider. The mouse zone editor may require too much work at this time, so here is a simpified idea, that requires a lot less GUI and core changes to get started on this path. Later on the Mouse Zone Editor could take shape as well.

The idea is to provide hard-coded zones that users cannot change. These already exist in most layers. Layers are mouse button and modifier combinations.

The editor would provide the same zones for ALL layers. The bottom layer is the complete item and the entire track. The middle layer are the edges, and the top layer are the corners of the item and track area. The size is one-fits-all as it currently exists for all edge and corner operations.

All the developers need to provide now is a drop down menu for each zone to select the function.

Does this have a better chance of getting done in the near future ?
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2008, 04:28 AM   #34
Till
Human being with feelings
 
Till's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany's California
Posts: 1,543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Crossfade functions don't exit yet, if you leave out Xenakios extension that is. If they did exist I'd place the at the bottom corners of the item, like Protools has. That works nicely for me. Xens extension is another good way of doing it.
dood, you're thinking way ahead

i just meant to remind you that there has to be some possibility to sort out how things work in the area where items are crossfaded:



both item's zones would rival here...
__________________
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 / 2 GB / WinXP Pro SP2 / EMU 0404 USB

"Recording is God's way of telling you that you suck." - Bob Brozman

My Jesusonic FX - Xenakios' Extension

REAPER FR Tracker - what is that?

The "How Stuff works in REAPER": video blog
Till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2008, 12:37 PM   #35
who
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7
Default

+1 This would be amazing!
who is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2008, 10:21 AM   #36
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
Default

bump .
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2008, 01:28 PM   #37
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
Default

+1

i'm with this, although i'd like to move the zone boundaries more than change the mouse functionality...
__________________
Nathan, Lincoln, UK. | Item Marker Tool. (happily retired) | Source Time Position Tool. | CD Track Marker Tool. | Timer Recording Tool. | dB marks on MCP faders FR.
planetnine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 06:05 PM   #38
bederk
Human being with feelings
 
bederk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Default

+1
excellent!
bederk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 12:58 PM   #39
joe2
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 394
Default

Did I not +1 this yet?

+1!

Nutty configurability, ho!
joe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 02:59 PM   #40
Youn
Human being with feelings
 
Youn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,167
Default

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather have the source code and re-compile - that way I can not compile all the crap in REAPER I don't use and ease my eyes and also get a performance boost.

I think things are getting too customizable in the front end. There must be some kinda downside to all these settings, no?

It seems, to my occasional view of the evolution of this program, that the developers seem to cram all this customization stuff in here and the feeling I get more and more is that almost nobody uses it except the handful of the more vocal folks on this forum.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just think we've been treading into the diminishing returns realm for far too long.

Maybe it's just me, but this kinda stuff more often then not turns me off to the idea of working with REAPER.

Why not make an alternative program that customizes REAPER, instead of jamming it all in the user interface where people want to work and get stuff done in? The menus are now out of control, almost nightmarish in some respects.

I guess I would like to customize the "hot spots" to make them a bit more generous, but I think this, like many of the "features" in REAPER seem to just go too far to complicate the task at hand. It's easy to figure out how to do something, it's much more of a challenge figuring it out so that it's simple and streamlined. That's the direction I'd like REAPER to go forward in, but alas, it does seem to be the collective philosophy of the developers and direct users.

ok, rant over (gotta have one of these once in a while, even for the great program we all appreciate)
Youn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.