Old 02-16-2019, 02:07 PM   #1
boydwgrossii
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 159
Default 3D Sound questions

I was having a discussion with a friend from church and he is learning editing for dramatic readings and we got on the discussion of 3D sound. To my understanding, someone did a 3D mix of a Radiohead album, but, I haven't seen a lot more in that realm.

I wanted to see if anyone here had any information on how to mix for the direction of each of the drivers and their locations and such. I have been curious about this since I've been going to the movies and listening to how they mix the sounds there.
boydwgrossii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 02:20 PM   #2
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
Default

ReaDave is the person to speak to. Look in the ambisonic and 3d positional audio threads.
He's in the God squad too.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 02:31 PM   #3
boydwgrossii
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
ReaDave is the person to speak to. Look in the ambisonic and 3d positional audio threads.
He's in the God squad too.
Thank you! I'll look in there.

What is the God squad?
boydwgrossii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 02:59 PM   #4
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
Default

Not sure if you mean 3D sound or "3D" sound. ("3D" is used as a term.)

Surround sound is a thing. Music mixes are mostly 5.1 mixes. Movies use this format as well.

5.1 surround is usually simply called "surround sound".

5.1 surround is front left and right speakers, an additional front center speaker, and rear left and right speakers. These 5 speakers are full range. There's an extra bass only channel (the .1).
You'll often see smaller speaker arrays with small top main speakers. You redirect all the bass from the 5 main channels into the bass only channel with this kind of setup.

7.1 or 9.1 adds additional side channel pairs to the system. There are newer formats that add even more speakers to the array. Height speakers (literally hung from the ceiling) and additional 'object' channels around the room (up to 60 or more). These formats are referred to as "3D". If you DID specifically mean the "3D" systems, they're Atmos, Aura, and DTS-X.

You'll see these "sound bar" things sold in places like Worst Purchase that throw out terms like "Surround" and "Atmos". They claim to give a surround sound-like immersive experience but they're pretty far from delivering what even a modest proper speaker setup will. (ie. Separate speakers placed properly around the room as noted above.)

The "3D" (Atmos, etc) formats are newer. More aimed at theaters. Atmos "for the home" is usually a 5.1 or 7.1 system with maybe 2 or 4 additional height channels.

Not a lot of genuine content mixed for the "3D" systems yet.
As far as music focused mixes go, 99% of them are 5.1 mixes. If you're getting into surround sound primarily for music, start with a 5.1 system.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 03:00 PM   #5
boydwgrossii
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Not sure if you mean 3D sound or "3D" sound. ("3D" is used as a term.)

Surround sound is a thing. Music mixes are mostly 5.1 mixes. Movies use this format as well.

5.1 surround is usually simply called "surround sound".

5.1 surround is front left and right speakers, an additional front center speaker, and rear left and right speakers. These 5 speakers are full range. There's an extra bass only channel (the .1).
You'll often see smaller speaker arrays with small top main speakers. You redirect all the bass from the 5 main channels into the bass only channel with this kind of setup.

7.1 or 9.1 adds additional side channel pairs to the system. There are newer formats that add even more speakers to the array. Height speakers (literally hung from the ceiling) and additional 'object' channels around the room (up to 60 or more). These formats are referred to as "3D". If you DID specifically mean the "3D" systems, they're Atmos, Aura, and DTS-X.

You'll see these "sound bar" things sold in places like Worst Purchase that throw out terms like "Surround" and "Atmos". They claim to give a surround sound-like immersive experience but they're pretty far from delivering what even a modest proper speaker setup will. (ie. Separate speakers placed properly around the room as noted above.)

The "3D" (Atmos, etc) formats are newer. More aimed at theaters. Atmos "for the home" is usually a 5.1 or 7.1 system with maybe 2 or 4 additional height channels.

Not a lot of genuine content mixed for the "3D" systems yet.
As far as music focused mixes go, 99% of them are 5.1 mixes. If you're getting into surround sound primarily for music, start with a 5.1 system.
Thank you. This is going to be interesting. I'll probably work on a few songs instead of doing something like a whole album.
boydwgrossii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 03:05 PM   #6
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
Default

Check out some of the 5.1 mixed albums available. A number of artists make 5.1 surround mixes of their albums. It started with quad (4.0) in the '70s. You may have heard of Dark Side of the Moon for example (a 4.0 mix - uses the 4 main channels of a modern 5.1 system).

Set some speakers up and find the 5.1 releases for a couple of your favorite albums. Usually downloaded as FLAC files just like stereo or on bluray disc.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 03:10 PM   #7
boydwgrossii
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Check out some of the 5.1 mixed albums available. A number of artists make 5.1 surround mixes of their albums. It started with quad (4.0) in the '70s. You may have heard of Dark Side of the Moon for example (a 4.0 mix - uses the 4 main channels of a modern 5.1 system).

Set some speakers up and find the 5.1 releases for a couple of your favorite albums. Usually downloaded as FLAC files just like stereo or on bluray disc.
Jimmy Eat World - Clarity and Chase This Light.

If themself are on there...
boydwgrossii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2019, 04:26 PM   #8
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
Default

Surround sound for music has always been a very tiny niche market. I suggest not looking to commercial viability, just do it for your own entertainment, for you and your friends.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2019, 09:06 AM   #9
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Surround sound for music has always been a very tiny niche market. I suggest not looking to commercial viability, just do it for your own entertainment, for you and your friends.
Yeah, you're not going to be having clients line up around the block for surround sound mixes. However, with home theater setups becoming more common, some people who never thought about it for music only might get lured in if they discover a favorite album mixed for surround.

Along with the thought of this being niche...
Go for a decent 5.1 setup. 99% of music mixes for surround are either 5.1 or 4.0. Let's get more people setup with a 5.1 speaker system before trying to introduce the 3D formats! Getting people to set up 5 speakers correctly in a room is still a stretch for many. Throw an over 60 speaker system at them with some mounted on the ceiling?! Right... These 3D formats (as cool as mixing for over 60 channels sounds in theory) are sadly going to devolve into buzz words for not even really surround sound products, let alone full 3D speaker arrays. It's already happening with those shitbar "speakers" they sell at Worst Purchase. "Atmos ready" and all that.

Start with standard 5.1 surround. Set up some speakers. Calibrate the system. Grab some of your favorite albums that have surround mixes (that you maybe hadn't even heard about before) and join in the fun. Start including 5.1 mixes for your bigger client projects to help push the format.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2019, 10:16 AM   #10
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
Default

I'm afraid proper 5.1 home theatre set ups are less common than they were a decade ago, sales are declining rapidly. People buy those systems primarily for movies anyway. Most users don't even know surround music exists, or would not care.

Instead we have seen a growth in soundbars and their form of half baked pseudo surround sound. Those sell because flat screen TVs sound awful, not so much the greatness of surround audio. The 5.1 system sales decline because bars are more convenient, without extra boxes and dreaded wires.

The vast majority of home theatre guys are not looking for music in surround. They may have a few concert recordings, but pure music surround really is a miniscule market. Sure a select few may make a profit in a specialist market with little competition for few customers.

This is why I say do it for fun. Learning how to mix surround could be fun and useful learning for those that want to make cinematic style video projects.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2019, 10:27 AM   #11
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 5,246
Default

You're missing the point, Serr.

First off, ambisonics aren't about music. They're about sound. Sound can be music, of course, but it doesn't need to be.

Second, the playback side doesn't need a large number of speakers. It's the 1-2-3 rule.

1 = stereo, 2 speakers. That's our starting point.
2 = surround, 4 speakers.
3 = 3-dimensional sound, 8 speakers.

That's not much more than 5.1 and even less than 8.2 or one of the other old surround standards.

thirdly, it isn't about playback at all. It's about recording. With just 4 channels, you can record a complete soundscape that you can alter after recording it. Need to output stereo? Just do it. Need to output a headphone stereo track? Just do it. And that can even be automated. It's just math...

You could transmit 4 channels and the user's receiver could generate whatever setup the user is listening to. On the fly.

However, it's not in the popular music field that this will find it's best application. It works very well for classical music, natural ambient soundscapes and everything else that can be recorded naturally. Most popular music, however, is created in the mix.

That's why ambisonic will be very important for film, VR, games and headphone mixes. After all, over 90% of people listen to music through headphones. And it's sometimes amazing what you can put in a binaural mix.

Of course, in gaming and VR it's more about generated sound. But that sound needs to be placed in a 3D space too. And that will abide to the same rules, the same math as ambisonic recording. Most of us will experience 3D-sound through some DSP box. And that box will decode what we need at that precise moment. Form 2 channel headphones to gigantic speaker arrays, if needed. But it can simply start with a 4 channel recording.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2019, 04:16 AM   #12
Dannii
Human being with feelings
 
Dannii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Default

boydwgrossii,

I just found this post. I would add more but I have a migraine right now and am going to try to sleep it off.
Besides, much has already been covered here and there are some great replies already, particularly Cyrano's reply above mine here.

As has been mentioned, have a browse through the dedicated 3D audio section HERE.
__________________
Dannii is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.