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Old 06-20-2024, 08:15 AM   #1
asai
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Default Make CC Automation Follow Playback Offset

Recently I realized that CC automation does not follow media playback offset. So for example, when I have my MIDI notes lined up in the grid, and the track has a -150 ms offset, that while MIDI notes play according to offset, CC changes don't.

This is a real issue with working with big orchestral templates (and orchestral samples in general even with smaller templates) as it basically negates the usefulness of media playback offset in this context. Stated otherwise, if MIDI notes follow offset, but CC doesn't, then offset isn't helpful.

Offset is very useful when you want to keep MIDI notes lined up on grid and then set different offsets for different articulations. It's a time saver, keeps things organized, and really adds up when you have one articulation per track.
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Old 06-20-2024, 12:47 PM   #2
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Old 06-20-2024, 02:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asai View Post
Recently I realized that CC automation does not follow media playback offset. So for example, when I have my MIDI notes lined up in the grid, and the track has a -150 ms offset, that while MIDI notes play according to offset, CC changes don't.

This is a real issue with working with big orchestral templates (and orchestral samples in general even with smaller templates) as it basically negates the usefulness of media playback offset in this context. Stated otherwise, if MIDI notes follow offset, but CC doesn't, then offset isn't helpful.

Offset is very useful when you want to keep MIDI notes lined up on grid and then set different offsets for different articulations. It's a time saver, keeps things organized, and really adds up when you have one articulation per track.
Wait - it doesn't? So if you have MIDI flags set to CC11 127 at the start of the project and then say a CC11 fade up from 0 on the first MIDI note you'd potentially hear a little of the note at CC11 127 before the automation to 0 is read if you have your track set to say -150ms offset?
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Old 06-20-2024, 02:42 PM   #4
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Just tested this on my machine - my CC automation does follow media playback offset here...

How are you setting it? Via the track routing popup?
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Old 06-20-2024, 04:23 PM   #5
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Thanks for your response. Yes, I'm setting the Media Playback Offset in the track I/O window.

What's happening specifically is that I have a hard shelf (for example, see pic) that's dropping in volume before it should be, and if I move the CC lane to the right it syncs up, approximately the same amount of movement that it takes to sync up MIDI notes if I'm not using offsets. So I'm assuming it's the offset...

Not really sure what's happening, if it's working on yours. I am using VEPro for this example however, so not sure how that might be affecting things.
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Old 06-21-2024, 02:51 AM   #6
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Try disabling anticipative fx processing for the track with the VEPro plugin

Tested here too with Vepro. Works fine, how is your Vepro buffer set?
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Old 06-21-2024, 04:21 AM   #7
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What exactly is "CC automation" ?

I don't know why exactly it is called "Media Playback offset" in the track routing menue.... maybe this is the key to that question.

Last edited by mschnell; 06-21-2024 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 06-21-2024, 05:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What exactly is "CC automation" ?

I don't know why exactly it is called "Media Playback offset" in the track routing menue.... maybe this is the key to that question.
CC automation is automation of MIDI CCs (continuous controllers) to control various MIDI parameters (CC1 = Modulation, CC64 = Sustain pedal, etc.) It's what the lanes at the bottom of the MIDI editor are for.

The setting is called 'media playback offset' because it offsets the playback of any media on the track (audio or MIDI) by a certain amount of ms/samples.
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Old 06-21-2024, 06:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asai View Post
Thanks for your response. Yes, I'm setting the Media Playback Offset in the track I/O window.

What's happening specifically is that I have a hard shelf (for example, see pic) that's dropping in volume before it should be, and if I move the CC lane to the right it syncs up, approximately the same amount of movement that it takes to sync up MIDI notes if I'm not using offsets. So I'm assuming it's the offset...

Not really sure what's happening, if it's working on yours. I am using VEPro for this example however, so not sure how that might be affecting things.
If you have a negative track delay and it's dropping before the beat, and it's with the data that you have in your image, then it is following the track delay. Or maybe I don't understand how you experience it.
I do work a lot with negative track delay, but have scripts that compensate, so the CC stays on grid, so I'd say it seems to work here. Also working with VEP
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Old 06-21-2024, 06:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthevoid View Post
It's what the lanes at the bottom of the MIDI editor are for.
OK. In my speak, automation is what is done in automation envelopes (track or automation items), while what is done in the Midi editor is called "Midi programming". Sorry for misunderstanding.

Re the issue:
In fact "Media Playback offset" is acknowledged for audio media/items. IMHO it also should be acknowledged for Midi Items. but I don't know if that is true.

It supposedly is not acknowledged with Track Automation Envelops. No Idea if it should and no idea regarding automation items.

So this is rather complex.

You might want to try ReaPack -> +/- delay. Same can time-shift as well audio as Midi Streams in a track.
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Old 06-21-2024, 06:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
OK. In my speak, automation is what is done in automation envelopes (track or automation items), while what is done in the Midi editor is called "Midi programming".
Agree with this notion about using the word automation.

I'd actually like to add, that I think it would make sense to often only have the offset for MIDI.

So what would be really awesome would be to be able to choose more specifically what the Media Playback Offset would affect. ie. So you could tick off if it should be MIDI (maybe MIDI CC), Audio, Envelopes (automation).
At the moment I have lots of tracks with offset for MIDI. But I like to render that MIDI as audio but keep the rendered audio on the same track as the MIDI (one of the greatest features in Reaper IMO).

Right now I then have to shift offset the audio the other direction in order to get it to sync.
But this would probably be its own feature request.
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxmand View Post
If you have a negative track delay and it's dropping before the beat, and it's with the data that you have in your image, then it is following the track delay. Or maybe I don't understand how you experience it.
I do work a lot with negative track delay, but have scripts that compensate, so the CC stays on grid, so I'd say it seems to work here. Also working with VEP
I guess literally it is following the track delay. What's not happening is that it's not staying in sync with the playback of the MIDI note. So in my image where there's a hard drop, that drop occurs back about 150 ms before the MIDI note plays, even though they're in the same horizontal position.

I'm starting to think this is either a bug, or I've got something wrong with my set up.
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxmand View Post
Agree with this notion about using the word automation.
Sorry to be pedantic... but surely the word 'automation' is just about automatic control of something? Doesn't matter if it's volume, pan, CC11, FX bypass, whatever. The point is you're not directly pushing a button or fader to make it happen, you've drawn in a curve or point so that the computer does it for you automatically when playing back
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxmand View Post
At the moment I have lots of tracks with offset for MIDI. But I like to render that MIDI as audio but keep the rendered audio on the same track as the MIDI (one of the greatest features in Reaper IMO).

Right now I then have to shift offset the audio the other direction in order to get it to sync.
But this would probably be its own feature request.
This would be a super cool feature and would definitely +1 a FR for this
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:24 AM   #15
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I noticed the “legato adv” reaticulate articulation, which probably means you’re using CSS, which probably means the problem is backwards: cc is sent, kontakt plays it good, but css attack time for note is off.

Sorry if it’s a long shot, but I always have this kind of problems with css. Tested with vital cc and notes stay in sync.
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthevoid View Post
Sorry to be pedantic... but surely the word 'automation' is just about automatic control of something? Doesn't matter if it's volume, pan, CC11, FX bypass, whatever. The point is you're not directly pushing a button or fader to make it happen, you've drawn in a curve or point so that the computer does it for you automatically when playing back
haha, no worries. I should have specified in a DAW context, that would be, for me.
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asai View Post
I guess literally it is following the track delay. What's not happening is that it's not staying in sync with the playback of the MIDI note. So in my image where there's a hard drop, that drop occurs back about 150 ms before the MIDI note plays, even though they're in the same horizontal position.

I'm starting to think this is either a bug, or I've got something wrong with my set up.
I just checked with a piano sound and -500ms delay and it works as expected:

https://youtu.be/IBEQeHrqgKA

@smandrap's guess is very good. I remember there were some setting inside reticulate where you could choose the CC behavior
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Old 06-21-2024, 07:58 AM   #18
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I was wrong. Tested with CSS and vepro, No low latency legato.




What's described in the image works as expected so... wtf
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Old 06-21-2024, 02:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthevoid View Post
Doesn't matter if it's volume, pan, CC11, FX bypass, whatever.
Such as playing notes from a midi item instead of pressing keys ...

Last edited by mschnell; 06-22-2024 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 06-21-2024, 02:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Such as plying notes from a midi item instead of pressing keys ...
Eh, sure! Doesn't really matter either way - call automation what you like
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Old 06-23-2024, 08:48 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smandrap View Post
I noticed the “legato adv” reaticulate articulation, which probably means you’re using CSS, which probably means the problem is backwards: cc is sent, kontakt plays it good, but css attack time for note is off.

Sorry if it’s a long shot, but I always have this kind of problems with css. Tested with vital cc and notes stay in sync.
Thanks, can you elaborate on this? Yes, I'm using CSS in this situation, so can you share your workarounds, if any?
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Old 06-24-2024, 12:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
so can you share your workarounds, if any?
I'm probably not the right person to ask. When using orchestral libs, i go full caveman mode shifting notes and cc around until it sounds acceptable

@inthevoid made some scripts for CSS legato though, give them a try
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Old 06-24-2024, 01:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by smandrap View Post
@inthevoid made some scripts for CSS legato though, give them a try
Indeed - they're on my ReaPack (in my signature).

Thread about them here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=282521
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Old 06-24-2024, 06:15 AM   #24
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Thanks, well, I will look at these scripts.

I ran a test without VEPro with the same MIDI item and same negative offset and I still get the same results with CSS, also same results with old Hollywood Strings. Whenever I set a negative track delay (-150 ms) the CC plays before the actual timing of the note. It's as if the CC lane and the MIDI notes are out of sync.

I think this may be something to do with Reaper's handling of CC data as related to media playback offset.
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Old 06-24-2024, 11:54 AM   #25
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OK, I figured it out. Just in case anyone has this same problem:

When I have WASAPI as the audio driver, it glitches like this. But when I use ASIO (ASIO4ALL) it functions as normal.
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Old 06-24-2024, 01:17 PM   #26
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Seems very weird to me.
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Old 06-24-2024, 01:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asai View Post
OK, I figured it out. Just in case anyone has this same problem:

When I have WASAPI as the audio driver, it glitches like this. But when I use ASIO (ASIO4ALL) it functions as normal.
Glad you figured it out! Yes, never use WASAPI on Windows if you can avoid it.
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Old 06-25-2024, 03:53 AM   #28
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If he uses ASIO4ALL he supposedly does use WASAPI under the hood.
That is why it's weird that is makes a difference.
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Old 06-30-2024, 05:39 PM   #29
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Yes, seems like the problem has returned. Even with ASIO4ALL still happening.

Dang... anyone have any insights on troubleshooting this?
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Old 07-01-2024, 12:28 AM   #30
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Maybe try ReaPack -> +/- delay instead of "Media Playback offset" in the track routing menue.
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Old 07-01-2024, 01:03 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asai View Post
Yes, seems like the problem has returned. Even with ASIO4ALL still happening.

Dang... anyone have any insights on troubleshooting this?
I think the best plan of action in this case is to try and make a very simple project that reproduces the issue (ideally in a clean install of Reaper) and attach it to a bug report post along with details of your system, Reaper version etc
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