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Old 06-22-2022, 05:01 AM   #1
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Default do your hands shake when playing in front of people from anxiety?

just wondering if anyone has a solution for this issue

do your hands shake when playing in front of people from anxiety?

they say breathing exercises and stuff but i doubt anything works except medication which i don't want to consider right now

thanks
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Old 06-22-2022, 05:09 AM   #2
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Beta blockers, I use Propanolol for a tremor in my hands. It can be taken when needed. It lowers blood pressure, so that needs to be taken into consideration. It made a large difference in my life. I couldn’t sign my name in front of people, it was a big problem. Give it a try, it probably can help your issue.
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Old 06-22-2022, 05:30 AM   #3
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Beta blockers, I use Propanolol for a tremor in my hands. It can be taken when needed. It lowers blood pressure, so that needs to be taken into consideration. It made a large difference in my life. I couldn’t sign my name in front of people, it was a big problem. Give it a try, it probably can help your issue.
yea i heard about beta blockers.....i also need to see if i have tremors or not, no idea

btw you had this issue even when relaxed at home? or mostly only in front of people?

my hands shake (mostly) when i'm in front of people...when i'm relaxed at home and i'm not nervous and i don't feel shaky


i am sure its a different life being able to do social things normally

i do remember beer (even though i'm not a drinker) did help me have stable hands in front of people, but its not something to be done repeatedly to solve this problem of course.

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Old 06-22-2022, 06:09 AM   #4
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That's just nerves. It's normal if you're not used to playing in front of people. It usually goes away before you even got to the end of the first song.

The last thing I would do is start taking beta-blockers, beer, drugs or any outside substance. It might help in the short term, but it will hurt in the long term. The word "Dependence" exists for a reason. Honestly, it's a stupid "solution" and a pretty irresponsible thing to suggest to someone without knowing their history or anything about them. And just because something is a "prescription" drug doesn't make it safer. In fact, I'd say it's probably the opposite.

If I were you, I'd take it as a challenge to overcome the fear that causes the shaking, and that's best done by simply playing in front of people. Once you get good feedback from an audience, you'll start looking forward to playing in front of people. The initial nervousness might not ever go away, but that's part of the rush of playing live.
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Old 06-22-2022, 06:31 AM   #5
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Using Propanolol has changed my life for the better, and my Dr said my tremor will worsen, so I see no downside. I don’t like using medications, but sometimes it is the best decision. If I went a different direction I would try hypnosis and see if that works.
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Old 06-22-2022, 06:37 AM   #6
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The tremor I have constantly, but it gets worse if I get too excited. It can feedback and become impossible to control my hands. This breaks the cycle. I don’t even take it every day. I wish I had it for my first guitar recital when I was 9 years old.

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yea i heard about beta blockers.....i also need to see if i have tremors or not, no idea

btw you had this issue even when relaxed at home? or mostly only in front of people?

my hands shake (mostly) when i'm in front of people...when i'm relaxed at home and i'm not nervous and i don't feel shaky


i am sure its a different life being able to do social things normally

i do remember beer (even though i'm not a drinker) did help me have stable hands in front of people, but its not something to be done repeatedly to solve this problem of course.
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Old 06-22-2022, 06:37 AM   #7
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Using Propanolol has changed my life for the better, and my Dr said my tremor will worsen, so I see no downside. I don’t like using medications, but sometimes it is the best decision. If I went a different direction I would try hypnosis and see if that works.
I'm glad it worked for you. But suggesting it to a stranger is irresponsible. There are side effects to everything, and beta-blockers are no exception.

The most common side effects of beta-blockers are:

Cold hands and feet
Depression
Difficulty sleeping or strange dreams
Dizziness
Dry mouth, skin or eyes
Gastrointestinal effects (such as nausea, diarrhea, or constipation)
A headache
A slowing of your heartbeat
Shortness of breath
Sexual dysfunction or low libido
Temporary increase in triglyceride levels and a decrease in HDL cholesterol (“good” cholesterol)
Tiredness or fatigue
Weight gain.

You don't just tell a total stranger to "Try it and see what happens".
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Old 06-22-2022, 06:45 AM   #8
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For,

Before potentially ruining your life with prescription drugs, I would try more organic and safer things like meditation, breathing exercises (look up WIM HOF), and mindful living.

If you want to try an outside substance, I'd go with CBD before anything made in a lab. Those drug companies love having you as a "customer" and don't care what the long term effects are....other than getting you hooked on one pill to counter-act the effects of the last pill. Before you know it, you're taking 10 pills a day because of the poison you started taking in the first place.

I'm stepping away from this conversation now.
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Old 06-22-2022, 07:28 AM   #9
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If it's just stagefright/nerves, you have to work through it by doing it a lot. The best I can give you is the following though it's not clear is this is what you are dealing with...

1. Learn to not give a crap. This is not apathy towards your musicianship, it is apathy about what anyone else thinks about it. I used to make dumb mistakes all the time and when I stopped giving a $hit, most of that disappeared.

2. If this causes you to make mistakes when performing, own it, embrace it and move on. In other words, if you are going to suck, suck with all your heart and soul. If you allow the mistake to alarm you internally, then expect mistake after mistake because thinking about it occupies the part of the brain you need for playing.

3. Do not visibly show that you know you made a mistake. No use throwing a spotlight on it. Move on, chances are only you noticed.

4. Don't "think", just play. Thinking is the worst thing you can possibly do.

5. Practice performing in front of someone you feel comfortable and trust. A little over a decade ago I had gone ~6 years without performing, when I started up again, I'd have my wife sit down in front of me a few feet away and I would play the songs in front of her at home. You kind of need to desensitize yourself to it.

6. Practice until it is pure muscle memory, this helps with #4.

Other than that 6 year respite, I've played live close to every weekend for 30 some years (really longer than that). I still occasionally get "into my head" and "out of the zone" but I've reached a point where when I'm in a public venue, I'm now more comfortable on the stage than I am in the audience (being the introvert I can be).
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:13 AM   #10
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The likelihood of someone "trying" propanolol from someone other than a doctor is nil, but on the other hand getting into another habit is quite high in comparison. In turn going to a doctor and letting him or her decide is a smarter option than listening to a stranger on the internet say do or don't do something.

Everyone's neurochemistry is different. And a lot of harm has come from people not taking prescription medication because someone told them to stop taking their evil SSRI, or that the Magic Elixer of Malic and Acetic Acid (apple cider vinegar) can substitute for insulin, steroids, PPIs, effectively everything including curing covid and cancer. Negative publicity touted as a reason to eschew prescription medication, when a majority benefits from it, is a scourge.

I know people that have taken propanolol for stage fright and aren't addicted. I know a whole lot more that have taken alcohol or coke - much more available - for stage fright that were addicted. And plenty that are dead because of it. If someone says they want to try something for stage fright, telling them to go to a doctor and ask about propanolol is a lot more ethical than saying "don't because you'll get addicted".

If I could tell my 12 year old self "one day, you're going to play guitar in front of thousands of people and it will be fun" I would never have believed it. I was debilitated by shyness. In school I would do anything to avoid speaking, and dreaded going to the board to do a math problem in front of class. But when I found out I could play guitar, I instantly decided "this is what I'm doing the rest of my life" it was instantly obvious that playing in front of people is part of that - and likewise, instantly, it was no longer an issue.

But everyone is different. I know people that literally throw up before gigs. What works for one person may not for another, and of all things propanolol is probably not a bad thing to try with a doctor's supervision. Particularly given in context to the reference of beer!
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:20 AM   #11
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:24 AM   #12
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do your hands shake when playing in front of people from anxiety?

Another thing: have you had a blood glucose stress test? I can have low blood sugar, and when it happens I get shaky - and sometimes nauseous. Gigs where everything is going wrong, everything is late, constantly running around, lifting gear, yelling, forget to eat some of the sandwich laying over there, skipped breakfast... shaky sensation. Or the reverse, load up with the free Sobe drinks backstage and the sugar spikes, then plummets - in the middle of your set.
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:25 AM   #13
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If I listened to my doctor after having heart surgery, I'd be dead now.

Doctors are just salesmen for the sales reps that come in and give them "gifts" to push their crap.

I had open heart surgery 9 years ago. I refused to take statins, beta blockers, or any other crap they tried selling me.

Instead, I've changed my lifestyle (diet, breathing exercises, cold showers, a few other things, etc...) and since then, my cardiologist sent me home 3.5 years ago, telling me I didn't need him any more. He told me my heart disease is completely gone, and my VO2 Max is as good as the 20 year old hockey players he tests. (I was 57 at the time) It was then that I told him I did it all without medication. Luckily, he was open minded enough to ask me how I did it. He was blown away.

I did a mini-marathon last summer and I'm doing a full one this summer. I deadlift 315lbs for reps, I box 10 3 minute rounds...I couldn't do any of this before my heart attack, even when I was in my 20's.

So please, don't tell me about medication. Not only did I do my research, my health and results are proof.

Telling someone to try medication before trying a ton of other less harmful methods is just stupid and irresponsible.

The list of side-effects from beta-blockers I listed above are real. But feel free to ignore the facts just because you "know someone who once took them and didn't get hooked". Gimme a break.

This is absolutely stupid. I can't believe the amount of people brain-washed by the drug companies. Probably shouldn't be surprised considering every TV show is sponsored by a drug company, with their 1 minute commercials which contain 50 seconds of "Warnings".

For, don't listen to the foolish advice some people are giving you. Every drug has negative side effects. Denial doesn't change the facts.
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:25 AM   #14
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Do you like Alice Cooper says and have tons of ego when you're on the stage and no ego when you're off the stage. All I need is more cowbell!!!
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:45 AM   #15
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If I listened to my doctor after having heart surgery, I'd be dead now.

Doctors are just salesmen for the sales reps that come in and give them "gifts" to push their crap.

To be fair, that's totally dependent on the Dr. My heart doctor is fking amazing, knows his shit like few I've ever met, never tried to push a thing on me other than more exercise. I'm 59 as of today and there are at least for now zero prescriptions in my life.

Conversely, I recently had a family practitioner who sucked, I go in for a visit for something wrong, they leave the room for 10 minutes and look it up on WebMD or something. Then I'd disagree with what they said (based on my own research) and would propose what I thought the best course of action was.... "OK let's do that" lol. I bailed on that Dr. since I was apparently smarter than he was.

That said, I work in engineering in my day life. It's obvious who are the great engineers and the wannabes with the title. This does NOT change when you go to the dr. You have to weed out to find the good ones.
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Old 06-22-2022, 08:49 AM   #16
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To be fair, that's totally dependent on the Dr. My heart doctor is fking amazing, knows his shit like few I've ever met, never tried to push a thing on me. I'm 59 as of today and there are at least for now zero prescriptions in my life.

Conversely, I recently had a family practitioner who sucked, I go in for a visit for something wrong, they leave the room for 10 minutes and look it up on WebMD or something. Then I'd disagree with what they said (based on my own research) and would propose what I thought the best course of action was.... "OK let's do that" lol. I bailed on that Dr. since I was apparently smarter than he was.

That said, I work in engineering in my day life. It's obvious who are the great engineers and the wannabes with the title. This does NOT change when you go to the dr. You have to weed out to find the good ones.
Good post. And I agree that it depends on the doctor. Unlike some people here, I understand nuance. Not everything is black and white. There are good doctors.....I guess.

On another note, my grandmother smoked a pack a day until she died at 83. So, I guess cigarettes aren't bad for you.

If I took the statins I was prescribed, I wouldn't be able to do all the things I mentioned above because I'd be suffering severe muscle aches and cramps, as well as becoming diabetic, like 90% of people that take statins. This is not "opinion". These are facts.

Ok, now I'm out. I think I've made my point.

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Old 06-22-2022, 09:11 AM   #17
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I am not a musician.

Stage fright is very common. Most people have a fear of public speaking and I assume most musicians have SOME stage fright. Some get it very bad to where they give-up or limit public performance. There are famous singers/musicians like to stick to the studio and rarely perform in public.

On the other hand, musicians seem to enjoy their job (while performing stage) more than anyone else!!!
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:24 AM   #18
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For decades my father urged me to join Toastmasters. I finally took his advice several years ago and it completely changed my reaction to being in front of a crowd. Today, taking charge of a room full of people is relatively easy.

I still get a little bit nervous before starting, but now I know how to use that as energy.
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:27 AM   #19
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I listened to a radio program about competitive brass band playing in the UK. I was surprised that they said over half of participants took beta blockers.

Oh, and alcohol also lowers blood pressure, so that's probably why it helped.

I tend to concentrate on the band and think of gigs as a rehearsal with some people watching. I find it takes the pressure off.
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:35 AM   #20
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...

Oh, and alcohol also lowers blood pressure, so that's probably why it helped.
That's probably why I've not been hampered by this too much.
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:46 AM   #21
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Another thing: have you had a blood glucose stress test? I can have low blood sugar, and when it happens I get shaky - and sometimes nauseous. Gigs where everything is going wrong, everything is late, constantly running around, lifting gear, yelling, forget to eat some of the sandwich laying over there, skipped breakfast... shaky sensation. Or the reverse, load up with the free Sobe drinks backstage and the sugar spikes, then plummets - in the middle of your set.

i avoided all kind of such tests but i guess its good to know these...for my case it happens in front of people mostly so its more like social anxiety i believe..but that might contribute
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett View Post
If I listened to my doctor after having heart surgery, I'd be dead now.

Doctors are just salesmen for the sales reps that come in and give them "gifts" to push their crap.

I had open heart surgery 9 years ago. I refused to take statins, beta blockers, or any other crap they tried selling me.

Instead, I've changed my lifestyle (diet, breathing exercises, cold showers, a few other things, etc...) and since then, my cardiologist sent me home 3.5 years ago, telling me I didn't need him any more. He told me my heart disease is completely gone, and my VO2 Max is as good as the 20 year old hockey players he tests. (I was 57 at the time) It was then that I told him I did it all without medication. Luckily, he was open minded enough to ask me how I did it. He was blown away.

I did a mini-marathon last summer and I'm doing a full one this summer. I deadlift 315lbs for reps, I box 10 3 minute rounds...I couldn't do any of this before my heart attack, even when I was in my 20's.

So please, don't tell me about medication. Not only did I do my research, my health and results are proof.

Telling someone to try medication before trying a ton of other less harmful methods is just stupid and irresponsible.

The list of side-effects from beta-blockers I listed above are real. But feel free to ignore the facts just because you "know someone who once took them and didn't get hooked". Gimme a break.

This is absolutely stupid. I can't believe the amount of people brain-washed by the drug companies. Probably shouldn't be surprised considering every TV show is sponsored by a drug company, with their 1 minute commercials which contain 50 seconds of "Warnings".

For, don't listen to the foolish advice some people are giving you. Every drug has negative side effects. Denial doesn't change the facts.

what are the benefits of cold showers? i've thought about it but i always think maybe i'm just tormenting myself for nothing doing those.....(plus i always chicken out) nothing like a warm shower hehe
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:51 AM   #23
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They shook when I was a drinking man. Especially with a little stress.
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:53 AM   #24
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For decades my father urged me to join Toastmasters. I finally took his advice several years ago and it completely changed my reaction to being in front of a crowd. Today, taking charge of a room full of people is relatively easy.

I still get a little bit nervous before starting, but now I know how to use that as energy.
can you tell us what are the main things you learnt there? i would never join a real meeting to practice....which i understand is of importance to achieve this

but in general whats the best things you learnt there

thanks
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:55 AM   #25
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Sometimes I'm fine playing live and then another time my hand feels like a bunch of shaky bananas.

I fingerpick a lot. I can't fingerpick in a shaky way - I just miss stuff and it gets worse as I start sweating it. I've even stopped playing and just done the song a capella when it was at its worst.

I found it helped to have a song you know backwards, that isn't complex and doesn't require fingerpicking - so I wrote one that worked for that.

Something to lull yourself and your audience into a sense of security. By the time I have finished that song my adrenaline has dropped and I can pick again.

It may work for you too. Who knows?

Edit: I also remind myself that the song is basically the sung melody and the bass line. The rest is decoration and not that important (and I don't care if that's "wrong") )
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:00 AM   #26
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SYMPTOMS:
1. Sweaty or shaking hands
2. Cotton mouth
3. Sweaty arm pits/back
4. High heart rate
5. Shortness of breath
6. Brain fog

ALL NORMAL for anxiety when playing in front of people.

IF you are doing a SOLO gig, that's as hard as it gets.
KNOW your material like the back of your hand. You will still mess up. Learn not to care
IF your band sucks and you are always trying to make it work the anxiety goes up as well

THIS is the BEST advise you will EVER get for live playing

"1. Learn to not give a crap. This is not apathy towards your musicianship, it is apathy about what anyone else thinks about it. I used to make dumb mistakes all the time and when I stopped giving a $hit, most of that disappeared."


The reality is this: Most people in the audience can't play or sing at all and they will hate you for that so get used to it
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:17 AM   #27
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Oh, and alcohol also lowers blood pressure, so that's probably why it helped.
Same for Viagra but not sure that would be comfortable.

More seriously, I don't get shaky hands per se. But anytime I revert and get nervous or unrelated stress, pretty much everything I need to know musically at that moment reverts to a blank slate. It's not necessarily nervous, more like just enough stress to make my mind wander and things go blank.

Now, if someone were to piss me off at that moment, I'll suddenly get it all back and I can easily see and do whatever I want (from my current musical knowledge), it's there for the taking.

All of this is often just a mind game, so don't be afraid (whomever) to learn and inspect what's happening. Chances are you'll find patterns and methods to help control it even before it occurs. Even something like meditating et al could likely help greatly.
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:25 AM   #28
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I’m assuming he’s an adult. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett View Post
I'm glad it worked for you. But suggesting it to a stranger is irresponsible. There are side effects to everything, and beta-blockers are no exception.

The most common side effects of beta-blockers are:

Cold hands and feet
Depression
Difficulty sleeping or strange dreams
Dizziness
Dry mouth, skin or eyes
Gastrointestinal effects (such as nausea, diarrhea, or constipation)
A headache
A slowing of your heartbeat
Shortness of breath
Sexual dysfunction or low libido
Temporary increase in triglyceride levels and a decrease in HDL cholesterol (“good” cholesterol)
Tiredness or fatigue
Weight gain.

You don't just tell a total stranger to "Try it and see what happens".
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:27 AM   #29
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they say breathing exercises and stuff but i doubt anything works except medication which i don't want to consider right now
Could you say why that is?
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:30 AM   #30
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Been playing in front of people for about ten years now, I always always get nervous when I'm about to play BUT if you know the song and have practiced enough, nothing more than a good performance should happen even with a few mistakes in there nobody should care about. The 6 points karbomusic pointed out help too.

After a few shows you should understand that the feeling is not the whole truth, just nerves from people watching, shouldn't be more than that. I might even say that after a while of not playing you actually look for that feeling! Because when you play and kick it's ass and people cheer, man, that's like winning a marathon haha

Don't take meds prescribed from strangers, please. That's irresponsible, to suggest and to take out of it.
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:41 AM   #31
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I guess a lot depends on what you are doing.

I only play my own material and am solo. That can be scary sometimes.

Funny thing is that playing a cover doesn't induce the same nerves. Maybe play a cover while the nerves settle?
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:43 AM   #32
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Could you say why that is?
because i see it as something you are dependent on

for example i could instead drink a glass of beer each night...maybe thats not harmful either but i'm just considering not doing medication right now

but i understand medication can be the only solution sometimes
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:46 AM   #33
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Playing by yourself, playing with others, playing in front of others...these are all separate skills that need practice.

Lemmy of Motorhead said he never got nervous because even when there was nobody there, he'd imagine a crowd of people (YMMV).

Whatever you do, do not try to drink the problem away! You're likely to forget your parts, since playing under the influence is yet another skill requiring practice. Not to mention all the other obvious health tradeoffs.

Find a safe space to practice with low consequence...busking for strangers, performing for friends, playing where you know people can hear you but not see you. Over time, the intensity of feelings will diminish and become something manageable...exciting even.

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but i understand medication can be the only solution sometimes
It's never a solution though, at least not with mental issues. It simply mitigates the symptoms so the underlying problems are easier to deal with. You still have to do the work of dealing with them, which is why medication should be coupled with therapy in order to see progress. It can take a long time (and exponentially longer the more you avoid it).
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:05 AM   #34
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To be fair, that's totally dependent on the Dr. My heart doctor is fking amazing, knows his shit like few I've ever met, never tried to push a thing on me other than more exercise. I'm 59 as of today and there are at least for now zero prescriptions in my life.

Conversely, I recently had a family practitioner who sucked, I go in for a visit for something wrong, they leave the room for 10 minutes and look it up on WebMD or something. Then I'd disagree with what they said (based on my own research) and would propose what I thought the best course of action was.... "OK let's do that" lol. I bailed on that Dr. since I was apparently smarter than he was.

That said, I work in engineering in my day life. It's obvious who are the great engineers and the wannabes with the title. This does NOT change when you go to the dr. You have to weed out to find the good ones.
Somewhere in the world somebody has an appointment with the worst doctor on the planet today.
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:06 AM   #35
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what are the benefits of cold showers? i've thought about it but i always think maybe i'm just tormenting myself for nothing doing those.....(plus i always chicken out) nothing like a warm shower hehe
Of course you're cynical. Totally understandable. The reason for that is because the people that control the narrative on "health" don't make a penny when you take a cold shower. Same thing with breathing exercises. It sounds kind of "woo woo" to people who are brain washed by the medical INDUSTRY. They only make money when you take a pill....which always leads to taking more pills, etc...

Cold showers and deep breathing exercises (Like I said, look up WIM HOF for starters) have been proven, in real double blind, control group medical experiments, to strengthen your immune system, reduce inflammation, reduce depression, reduce anxiety, etc.. people have changed their lives doing these things...with NO un-desireable side-effects. Again, this is not my "opinion". This has been proven. It's a fact.

99% of medications are trying to mimic something that already exists in nature. But people can't get their head around the fact that the medical INDUSTRY does not have your well being in mind. It's a business and you're a customer.

Google the amount of lawsuits companies like Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson have been on the wrong end of. We're talking about KNOWINGLY killing children in some cases. Again, these are facts, not "opinions".

Honestly, we're getting off topic here. I said I was leaving ths thread, but you asked me a question directly, so I answered it. The amount of mis-information people are giving you would be funny if it wasn't so potentially harmful. Do not listen to anyone who is encouraging you to take prescription drugs for simple stage fright. These people have no idea what they're talking about. They're just parroting bullshit they've been brain-washed to believe. It's dangerous and stupid.
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:38 AM   #36
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I’m assuming he’s an adult. Chill out.
I guess that FACTUAL list of side effects hurt your feelings. Sorry, the truth does that sometimes. Cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing with people like you.
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:41 AM   #37
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Do not listen to anyone who is encouraging you to take prescription drugs for simple stage fright. These people have no idea what they're talking about. They're just parroting bullshit they've been brain-washed to believe. It's dangerous and stupid.
I would expand that to say, do not take medical advice from anyone on this thread, including you, including me.

I agree totally that drugs are over prescribed, but I also know there is no "one size fits all" medicine.

Each person's body responds differently.

Do your own research, listen to your own body, try to find a good medical practitioner that works with you.
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:43 AM   #38
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I guess that FACTUAL list of side effects hurt your feelings. Sorry, the truth does that sometimes. Cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing with people like you.
FYI, when posts become personal, bans are around the corner...If you wanna stick around, don't engage!
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:45 AM   #39
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You may derive benefit from Neuro-Linguistic Programming, whose scientific basis is questionable, but whose placebo effect can be effective.

In the latest form, you have to identify the 'modalities' of the 'state' you're in when you're anxious; the first time, the worst time and the last time.m Ask your self what it looks like, sounds like, etc etc and try to minimise these in your mind. More but this isn't the place.
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Old 06-22-2022, 12:10 PM   #40
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for example i could instead drink a glass of beer each night...maybe thats not harmful either but i'm just considering not doing medication right now
Kudos and good for you; that's the best initial approach.

That said, there's nothing wrong with "A" beer generally. I've almost always had one beer and no more at the start of the show. The problem is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.... and only a very, very few, if any maintain their full performance ability (no matter what they think). And for us who aren't plastered when we play, it's incredibly annoying and frustrating to play with another otherwise great musician who is sauced up.

Seen it a million times.
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