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09-15-2020, 02:54 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my arse in Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 2,032
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De-Essing: Share your techniques
At the moment, I'm of the mind that you can avoid harsh Esses in the first place by recording a vocal that needs as little compression as possible; but what do other people do - plugins, etc - when it's unavoidable? And how much Essing is axxssseptable?
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09-15-2020, 04:35 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: In the Rockies
Posts: 89
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Volume automation...
Other stuff may work, but nothing beats volume auto.
F deessers...!
As Stanley Kubrick liked to say after 65 takes... "Well, you want to get it right, don't you?"
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09-15-2020, 04:44 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,162
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ToneBoosters sibalance. That's my technique.
I'ts cheap, quick, and it works.
You can get it's little brother, Tonebooster de-ess in the recording bundle for dirt cheap. It's a more basic de-ess, but for simple stuff, it works quite well.
volume Automations also work very well, but they do take time.
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09-15-2020, 07:02 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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I have used and loved the 2 Tonebooster plugins, as well as TDR Nova...but my latest go to no brainer de-esser is a Hornet plugin. It's basically a load as, click a few times, and fine tune it for a few seconds. Really...almost too good to be true...but it works 90% of the time. https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-sybilla/
There is also a "pro" version, but the "amateur" one works for me....ha ha
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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09-15-2020, 07:27 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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change the lyrics
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09-16-2020, 12:23 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
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Use TDR Nova dynamic EQ, which is free and better than what you can do with Reaper alone.
https://reaperblog.net/2018/03/dynamic_reaeq/
The upgraded GE version is also cheap on Plugin Boutique for a few days more I believe.
You will easily find YT videos on de- essing with Nova, but also plosive reduction too.
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09-16-2020, 04:18 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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for me, nothing does it as quick as elosis
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09-16-2020, 07:30 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,178
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"change the lyrics ". That's very funny.
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09-16-2020, 08:52 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
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Waves Sibilance is the best de-esser I have ever used and I got it free. Its my goto and is easily as good as the Fab filter de-esser.
Typical usage is pre-compressor and, if necessary, a second instance post compressor(s). I go much heavier on the de-esser for vocal doubles and sometimes I'll edit the double to completely remove esses and certain consonants making the doubled effect much tighter sounding.. I also put a de-esser in front of vocal reverbs. I definitely dont want spitty esses going through reverb.
For free you can use TDR Nova dynamic EQ as an OK de-esser. I was never satisfied with the results though. I wonder if its because its a "parallel" EQ and the effect is just too subtle to tame strong esses. Maybe a typical dynamic EQ would work better.
Volume/EQ automation definitely works but is ridiculously time consuming IMO. Sometimes though it is the only way to deal with a particularly nasty ess or plosive.
On a related topic I just got Ozone RX7 Breath control as a freebie for purchasing Nectar 3. Holy crap does this plug-in work well. I'll never need to manually edit breaths again.
Last edited by Magicbuss; 09-16-2020 at 01:16 PM.
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09-16-2020, 09:48 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,416
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Spectral edit and/or ReaXComp and/or manual volume envelope. Not necessarily in that order of priority.
__________________
// MVHMF
I never always did the right thing, but all I did wasn't wrong...
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09-16-2020, 12:50 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Mixing dialogue so it has to be fast and easy to use. I get some damn nasty ADR sometimes. Compression in some cases basically boosts the bad stuff, so deessers have to do some heavy lifting here.
I have several in my employ, so I'll mention them in descending order of how easy they are to set up. I haven't used all available deessers of course.
Waves Sibilance
Probably the easiest to setup after installation. Very respectable results indeed. If you can get this cheap, give it a whirl. Mind you, Waves plugins are always cheap these days.
Harrison AVA DeEsser
Requires a small bit of setup but provides focused results and quite a bit of control. Highly flexible. I recommend watching their demo videos. This one is also used in film/tv mixing whenever someone is lucky enough to work on an MPC console or have this plugin. It's familiar and can spoil your material if you really want it to .
Waves Renaissance DeEsser
Well it's a classic. Might muck up your material if used excessivly, but it's still a good one.
TDR Nova
Any dynamic EQ with a good sound will do this as well. Requires a lot more setup of course, but it can be as brutal or soft as you require.
Toneboosters Sibilance
Very detailed, very flexible. ALmost like a mastering compressor for a specific frequency band. Lets you mix between two algorithms. Definintely worth a test drive. It may overwhelm you a bit, but it's quite the deep box of tricks that will serve you well.
ReaComp
It's really good, but you have to find the settings first . Cheap on CPU and pretty clean too.
Attack 0.17 , Release 5 , Ratio 2:1, Knee 0, Highpass 5.8k , Lowpass 13.8k , RMS 0.58. Try that.
For stuff I cannot easily control with plugins, which are very few, I'll use take-volume automation or paint them out in Izotope RX.
Last edited by airon; 09-16-2020 at 01:08 PM.
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09-16-2020, 01:04 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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I use the Take Volume envelope, I can catch the breaths and pops at the same time, as well as raise faint words and lower those that are too loud.
Yeah, it can be a little painstaking but I've been doing that ever since we got volume envelopes, 25 to 30 years ago and it works very well.
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09-16-2020, 01:21 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Volume automation is a sure-fire hit. Spectral peaks view can help speed it up if you haven't memorised the lyrics to know where the problems will be.
I used dynamic EQ for a long time, but when you have a particularly problematic recording and need to de-eth aggrethively, it can eathily lead to lithping. Same goes for multi band compressors/de-essers.
My go-to now is the LSR (Lindell, the same guy who does some of Plugin Alliance's best stuff) emulation of the dbx 902. I only use it in wide band mode (to avoid the aforementioned lisping) and it just works. It's expensive, but I picked it up during a rare sale.
Of course, this should pretty much only apply to vocals you haven't recorded yourself!
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09-16-2020, 01:38 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Of course, this should pretty much only apply to vocals you haven't recorded yourself!
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09-16-2020, 04:11 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
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Mic technique - go off-axis when singing sibilant syllables.
Volume ducking - manually entered volume dips. Kenny Gioia has a video on this, using simple item splits with volume fades automatically added on each side of the split.
Plugins - Spitfish, dynamic EQs, compressor with high pass sidechain, other deessers.
I'm usually able to handle it with the first two. Plugins are more of a last resort.
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09-17-2020, 06:02 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alkimos, Western Australia
Posts: 159
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I have been using the Waves Sibilance plugin. Only picked it up because it was free. Works great.
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09-17-2020, 09:35 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my arse in Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 2,032
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Many brilliant comments, thanks. Change the lyrics, yes - or get a singer who lisps. I'm using ReaComp too atmo, though I might give Kenny' s/c ducking another go.
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09-17-2020, 09:50 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 2,588
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While esses are being spoken, no other lower frequency is present so it does not necessarily have to be a compressor on a partial band.
I use a full band compressor with a sidechain eq, Fabfilter ProC2, and I just crank top shelf up in a way that esses gets the same amount of gain reduction as vowels and vowels are not affected. The compressor must be set fast.
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09-17-2020, 09:50 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,809
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novacaine.
or voxformer.
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09-17-2020, 11:11 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: UK, in and around London.
Posts: 395
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Waves, yes but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
...
Waves Sibilance
Probably the easiest to setup after installation. Very respectable results indeed. If you can get this cheap, give it a whirl. Mind you, Waves plugins are always cheap these days.
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I have great results with Waves Sibilance. It's genuinely great and works with very little human interference.
But Waves -- why oh why oh why oh why must you have such a PITA anti piracy mechanism?! Crashed hard drive? Great -- jump through a zillion hoops to prove I'm the license holder after I rebuild. Change from cabled ethernet to Wifi (as I sometimes have to as I move around)? No - go away -- you're not using the validated network card -- your MAC address has changed so I'm not starting. So the plug in is great, but Waves themselves, well, they really P155 me off!
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09-17-2020, 11:40 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiddieNam
I have great results with Waves Sibilance. It's genuinely great and works with very little human interference.
But Waves -- why oh why oh why oh why must you have such a PITA anti piracy mechanism?! Crashed hard drive? Great -- jump through a zillion hoops to prove I'm the license holder after I rebuild. Change from cabled ethernet to Wifi (as I sometimes have to as I move around)? No - go away -- you're not using the validated network card -- your MAC address has changed so I'm not starting. So the plug in is great, but Waves themselves, well, they really P155 me off!
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Agreed. Even their "free' plugins arent free. They will eventually lose supprt via the stupid Waves versioning BS and you will need to PAY to keep using your free plugin.
You want hoops? Try authenticating waves v9 plugins in the v11 era. You have to download an offline installer, then you have to... oh fuck it... I guess I dont need H-delay or true verb after all. Dreading v12 when my v10 Sibalance is no longer supported. This is a shit business model from the customer POV.
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09-17-2020, 11:56 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,969
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airwindows DeEss is really good. As good as manual methods, and way easier.
__________________
it's meant to sound like that...
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09-17-2020, 02:06 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: UK, in and around London.
Posts: 395
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Waves rant (I know, it's about de-essers, but...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
Agreed. Even their "free' plugins arent free. They will eventually lose supprt via the stupid Waves versioning BS and you will need to PAY to keep using your free plugin.
You want hoops? Try authenticating waves v9 plugins in the v11 era. You have to download an offline installer, then you have to... oh fuck it... I guess I dont need H-delay or true verb after all. Dreading v12 when my v10 Sibalance is no longer supported. This is a shit business model from the customer POV.
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Yep. I hear you. Never again. Waves can go and do things beginning with F to themselves. Real shame as Sibilance is really good, to return to the point of all of this.
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09-17-2020, 02:17 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Curaçao
Posts: 410
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If you're unhappy with de-esser results, try a transient designer. Saw this in one of John Christian's tutorials and it works great.
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09-17-2020, 02:40 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas
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That is terrific. Thank you.
__________________
Guitarist, songwriter, engineer, producer - The Angels, Skyhooks, Rose Tattoo.
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09-17-2020, 04:51 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,227
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this is what i've been using of late. been very happy with it.
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09-18-2020, 11:16 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas
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Kenny's video's are great and that is a useful sidechain technique. BUT it can be replicated with a single instance of TDR Nova which is also free.
IMO Dynamic EQ's are just NOT as good as the best dedicated De-essers or simple but time consuming volume automation.
Reducing the amount of treble in an ess is NOT the same effect as reducing the VOLUME of an ess. IMO Reducing the volume is much more effective than reducing the treble content.
I believe that what Waves Sibalance and other modern De-essers do is automatically reduce the volume of the ess. This is the best of all worlds.
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09-18-2020, 11:42 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
Reducing the amount of treble in an ess is NOT the same effect as reducing the VOLUME of an ess. IMO Reducing the volume is much more effective than reducing the treble content.
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That's an interesting observation Magicbuss, worthy of some testing when I have time.
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09-18-2020, 12:30 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
Reducing the amount of treble in an ess is NOT the same effect as reducing the VOLUME of an ess. IMO Reducing the volume is much more effective than reducing the treble content.
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I think this is one of those subjective topics. I have used both (reducing volume and reducing treble), and if I can target the frequencies properly, I actually like reducing the volume of right frequencies best.
Check this out. Even comes with a Reaper project download! This article talks about some very creative ways to de-ess, including chopping out all of sibilant parts, putting them on their own track, and just eq it separately. Another way that I had never considered was using ReaEQ and ReaGate to ACCENT the sibilant on a send track, reverse the phase, and adjust the level to that track to achieve the de-essing. Pretty cool alternatives.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...ocal-de-essing
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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09-18-2020, 01:08 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43
I think this is one of those subjective topics. I have used both (reducing volume and reducing treble), and if I can target the frequencies properly, I actually like reducing the volume of right frequencies best.
Check this out. Even comes with a Reaper project download! This article talks about some very creative ways to de-ess, including chopping out all of sibilant parts, putting them on their own track, and just eq it separately. Another way that I had never considered was using ReaEQ and ReaGate to ACCENT the sibilant on a send track, reverse the phase, and adjust the level to that track to achieve the de-essing. Pretty cool alternatives.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...ocal-de-essing
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Agreed most things in audio are subjective. :-) Taking the Kenny G video for example: His processed vocal did not sound de-essed enough to me. Yes the brightness of the esses was tamed but IMO they were still too loud and annoying to my ears. I wanted less overall ess - not just less brightness.
And yeah phase flip tricks are cool but IMO they are more time consuming than just using a dedicated processor. They can be really useful though.Here's one I recently heard about thats super cool for removing Hihat bleed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR3mKXORiiw
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09-18-2020, 01:10 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
Agreed most things in audio are subjective. :-) Taking the Kenny G video for example: His processed vocal did not sound de-essed enough to me. Yes the brightness of the esses was tamed but IMO they were still too loud and annoying to my ears. I wanted less overall ess - not just less brightness.
And yeah phase flip tricks are cool but IMO they are more time consuming than just using a dedicated processor. They can be super useful though.Here's one I recently heard about thats super cool for removing Hihat bleed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR3mKXORiiw
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I hear ya...Oh, was that a pun? Dunno....
I personally am ok with some "ess". I tend to work with less commercial music anyway, and the "warts and all" can help the "natural" feel.
That's a cool snare bleed trick, thanks for that!
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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09-18-2020, 01:17 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
That's an interesting observation Magicbuss, worthy of some testing when I have time.
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Yeah it occurred to me during the course of this thread. I started thinking about WHY I didnt like the results from Nova and other EQ based de-essing techniques. At the same time I and many other people in this thread feel that volume automation is the most accurate method even though its very time consuming (Kenny G himself uses it).
Regardless of one's subjective interpretation of the results, the 2 methods do produce DIFFERENT effects. I prefer volume reduction. Also due to fletcher munson reducing something in volume will also reduce treble - so its like a 2 for 1 process.
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09-18-2020, 03:47 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
Yeah it occurred to me during the course of this thread. I started thinking about WHY I didnt like the results from Nova and other EQ based de-essing techniques. At the same time I and many other people in this thread feel that volume automation is the most accurate method even though its very time consuming (Kenny G himself uses it).
Regardless of one's subjective interpretation of the results, the 2 methods do produce DIFFERENT effects. I prefer volume reduction. Also due to fletcher munson reducing something in volume will also reduce treble - so its like a 2 for 1 process.
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Yeah, that's basically what I said in this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
I use the Take Volume envelope, I can catch the breaths and pops at the same time, as well as raise faint words and lower those that are too loud.
Yeah, it can be a little painstaking but I've been doing that ever since we got volume envelopes, 25 to 30 years ago and it works very well.
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09-18-2020, 08:10 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 64
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One option to try that you might already have in your arsenal is the iZotope RX De-Esser. I've been using it in combination with the Waves DeEsser (not Sibilance) and they definitely both sound different. Definitely want to get something better, but it seems that every de-esser has a different flavor so it's nice to try different stuff and see what works for the vocal.
I find that F sounds can be the most annoying and harsh, sometimes a lot more than S sounds. Anyone have tips on zeroing in on F sounds specifically, aside from editing them by hand? That's my current technique which works well but takes time obviously.
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09-19-2020, 02:51 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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I forgot to mention the most important part of de-essing, for me at least: resetting my ears.
Once you start listening out for sibilance, you become very sensitive to it. Many times I've come back to a mix and realised I'd totally overdone the de-essing. These days I try to do less than I think it needs and then forget about it until I come back to the mix or take a break.
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09-19-2020, 03:41 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,969
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It's not uncommon to find a "singer" with a touch of a high-pitched "whistle" on sibilants - seems to be more common w/ the, er, dental prosthesis wearers. Spectral editing can work well for this, if traditional de-essing struggles.
__________________
it's meant to sound like that...
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09-19-2020, 06:35 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I forgot to mention the most important part of de-essing, for me at least: resetting my ears.
Once you start listening out for sibilance, you become very sensitive to it. Many times I've come back to a mix and realised I'd totally overdone the de-essing. These days I try to do less than I think it needs and then forget about it until I come back to the mix or take a break.
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So true!
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09-19-2020, 08:16 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 635
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For de-essing, I have completely switched my workflow to TBProAudio's DSEQ, which is my vote for plugin of the year. I've got many or most of the top de-essing plugins, endless other plugins and tools, tried so many techniques/approaches over the years, and they all have now taken a back seat to DSEQ for de-essing.
Once you get the hang of how the pre-filter response curve works in conjunction with the selectivity/threshold/attack/release/etc., you can fine-tune the response of the bank of dynamic EQs to get as surgical or as broad as you want to. There are a couple of similar plugins on the market, very good ones in fact, but none have the flexibility and depth of this plugin IMO. It can be subtle and incredibly transparent, or brutal and aggressive. And everything in between.
https://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/dseq.html
I have nothing to gain by posting this other than I personally want this developer to stay in business and keep on making his magic. This is his best plugin, IMO, and I now own several of his. They're all good, but DSEQ is special.
DSEQ is far more than a de-esser, BTW. It's a resonance killer, frequency-taming genius, de-masking superstar, a re-balancing powerhouse, and a mastering secret weapon. But yes, also the best de-esser I've ever used. Ever.
And the developer is a really great guy, one of the best indie developers I've ever interacted with, super responsive to technical issues and very open to feature requests. I think he lurks around this forum, and has been involved in the Reaper community at some point, but I don't know how much time he spends here now that he's so deep in his plugin development. He's the kind of developer you can feel good about sending your money to, like Justin and Schwa, etc...
Anyway, I highly, highly recommend you check it out, read up on it, test it, reach out to the dev (again, I think he's in this forum somewhere, but lately I've seen him interacting over at Gearslutz). By far the best plugin this year IMO, and I shamelessly and happily will cheer this developer on, who deserves all the kudos in the audio world for this great plugin.
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