Old 10-05-2019, 11:04 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by tusitala View Post
Hi, hoping to chime in with some little input.
Not being able to program or to offer any technical suggestion, I'm happy to offer my opinion as a quite experienced user and "score-oriented" composer:

Articulations should be "glued" to the notes themselves, not another "layer" that has to be controlled separately.

The best articulation systems in existence so far are Logic Articulation Sets (that use Articulations IDs) and Cubase's Expression Maps (only using the "attribute" function, not the direction).

for the only reason that you can select a bunch of notes, set them to "pizzicato" (for example) then move them around, copy them to a different track or different position, and they will still preserve their articulation. Pretty much like in a dedicated notation software.
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I agree with you tusitala.

I also think that articulations "glued" to notes should also be identified on the notes themselves for reading and editing convenience. I don't know how Cubase and Logic handle this. What I mean is it should not handle articulations on a separate window (or pane, like MIDI CC pane) to identify which note has such or such articulation is not easy on the eye, and not convenient editing-wise.

Also, since Reaper has a notation feature, articulations should be assignable in both MIDI Editor mode and notation mode.

Like:
- MIDI editor notes can either display either velocity or pitch name directly on them. I would be fantastic to display the articulation name on them too.
- The notation editor can display notation symbols. If those could be attributed to specific notes, it would be fantastic too!


I agree with Tusitala and Krahosk, this is the way I work currently but I use MIDI channels to accomplish it. These are limited to 16 channels however, and it's really not the intended usage of channels.

People may argue for an implementation similar to other existing products because that is what they are used to, but I strongly support articulations and other notation elements having a way of being embedded in the notes themselves (including, hopefully, the eventual implementation of things like crescendo markings actually being assigned to CC changes in the background)
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Old 10-05-2019, 12:08 PM   #362
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Of course articulations should be "glued" to the notes themselves, I can't imagine any reason to do it differently.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:18 PM   #363
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There are use-cases for both articulations that are a property of the note as well as independent of the note.

The former is obvious enough, and as far as the latter goes, there are many libraries that provide the ability to manipulate the current note while it's playing (e.g. rebowing a stringed instrument, adding an embellishment, etc.). An articulation management system should provide a coherent solution for both approaches.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:21 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Commala View Post
I agree with Tusitala and Krahosk, this is the way I work currently but I use MIDI channels to accomplish it. These are limited to 16 channels however, and it's really not the intended usage of channels.

People may argue for an implementation similar to other existing products because that is what they are used to, but I strongly support articulations and other notation elements having a way of being embedded in the notes themselves (including, hopefully, the eventual implementation of things like crescendo markings actually being assigned to CC changes in the background)
Fully agree with Commala! Notes embedded with articulation data would be amazing. Especially if they're embedded primarily with articulation names, so that when moving midi items across different tracks, the name triggers different articulation data itself since each instrument track may have different data respective to that particular articulation name.

For example:
Flute 1 could have MIDI Channel 2 only as Staccato
Violins 1 could have MIDI Channel 3, CC number 1, CC Value 0 as Staccato

Both being Staccato in name, but completely different triggering data.

The initial implementation in REAPER pre-release 5.30 had a bank file that associated articulation names with different data from what i remember, and when moving MIDI items between tracks, the same articulation was triggered with different data contained which was great! Whilst having an actual Articulation Name lane in the MIDI Editor too.

A similar system with an easier GUI would be amazing as then the notation editor and midi piano roll / CC Lane data editor would be synced up. Creating the best hybrid from a DAW! Crescendos and all
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:29 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commala View Post
I agree with Tusitala and Krahosk, this is the way I work currently but I use MIDI channels to accomplish it. These are limited to 16 channels however, and it's really not the intended usage of channels.

People may argue for an implementation similar to other existing products because that is what they are used to, but I strongly support articulations and other notation elements having a way of being embedded in the notes themselves (including, hopefully, the eventual implementation of things like crescendo markings actually being assigned to CC changes in the background)

As a possible more graphical explanation of what I mean, I took a video of what I think is the best articulation management system in existence, hoping it might be useful (at least for non-Logic users)



PS: Don't get me wrong, I hate Logic and prefer every aspect of Reaper...but have to admit that Logic nailed the articulation management system, even more than Cubase and than anything else in my opinion...check out in my video how fast and seamless it is to try out and switch articulations on existing passages, regardless of the editor you're in.

And if tracks use consistent articulation sets (like in my example), parts can then be copied and pasted between tracks retaining the articulation changes.

And the score even reflects some of the more popular ones by adding the relative symbols (staccato dots etc etc)
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Old 05-09-2020, 01:44 AM   #366
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Wondering if this is still in the works.

I guess only a tiny fraction of Reaper users will benefit, but I'm also surprised that there's still no "Universal" solution for getting articulation programming out of the way of productivity - especially in Reaper in 2020 (Well, not counting Logic).

I used Reaticulate a bit and although it's a tremendous work, I hardly see it could replace a built-in solution. It's not supporting Notation Events, can't handle Dynamics and a bit chore to set up after all. And I'm thinking, asking all these work flawlessly from an independent tool-builder is kinda cruel.

Lately, I tried Dorico (meh) and eyeing Staffpad (sounds fantastic). I don't want switch Reaper for orchestral composing, but programming articulations (twice, once in Notation Editor, then by Midi programming) by hand brings my flow to its knees. So, I'd like to know if an Articulation Mapper is still a thing.

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Old 05-09-2020, 04:01 AM   #367
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Iím literally getting into the forum every day to see if this is part of the next release...
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Old 05-10-2020, 03:38 AM   #368
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Iím literally getting into the forum every day to see if this is part of the next release...
Me too...and it's the only reason I still have to keep working in Logic for orchestrations.

And newer libraries are getting so stuffed with different articulations (which is great!) that there's almost no other efficient way of using them without and articulation system like the Logic one.

Still keeping my fingers crossed and hoping the Reaper developers will help us out somehow.

All the best
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Old 05-10-2020, 10:23 AM   #369
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Iím literally getting into the forum every day to see if this is part of the next release...
I keep doing the same aha! I know that Schwa said it won't be back until a lot of pre-releases later, which was a few years ago now.

I'm hoping the articulation mapper system will come back soon so we can test and assist with integrating it into REAPER
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Old 05-10-2020, 10:59 AM   #370
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I really hope as well that this will become a thing! I checked out Reaticulate and while it is a great solution, it is just too time consuming to set up articulations for every library.
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Old 05-10-2020, 11:22 AM   #371
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I checked out Reaticulate and while it is a great solution, it is just too time consuming to set up articulations for every library.
Unfortunately native articulation maps won't save you from this either. The solution (in either case) is just a better means of sharing, but one way or the other the leg work needs to be done.
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Old 05-10-2020, 11:52 AM   #372
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Personally I don't mind investing the time to create my "Articulation Maps" as other programs call them, as long as they then work and exponentially simplify the composition/mockup process.

I spent some time creating them for my libraries inside Logic, it is time consuming, but now that they're done I can pretty much change them on the fly in the same way I would do inside Sibelius or any other notation software, and that's huge!
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Old 05-10-2020, 12:16 PM   #373
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Unfortunately native articulation maps won't save you from this either. The solution (in either case) is just a better means of sharing, but one way or the other the leg work needs to be done.
Well now that I think of it, I remember my problem is not that it takes time to create articulation maps per se for every library, but rather the way you create them. Back when I tried it I loved how it works with my Cinematic Studio Strings but when checking out how to create maps for other libraries on the Reaticulate webpage, I skimmed through that wall of text and understood nothing about all these values and what I have to type into the reabank text file. As I have read somewhere that an interface will be created for this someday I just thought it doesn't buy me enough time on the long run to bother going through all this and messing around for days if not weeks until it works with all my libraries. However this editor never came, a native Reaper solution is not in sight and I make more and more orchestral music. So probably it is still the wisest choice to wrestle through all of this once I have some spare time. In the end it is just too good to not use.
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Old 05-10-2020, 12:47 PM   #374
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Well now that I think of it, I remember my problem is not that it takes time to create articulation maps per se for every library, but rather the way you create them. Back when I tried it I loved how it works with my Cinematic Studio Strings but when checking out how to create maps for other libraries on the Reaticulate webpage, I skimmed through that wall of text and understood nothing about all these values and what I have to type into the reabank text file. As I have read somewhere that an interface will be created for this someday I just thought it doesn't buy me enough time on the long run to bother going through all this and messing around for days if not weeks until it works with all my libraries. However this editor never came, a native Reaper solution is not in sight and I make more and more orchestral music. So probably it is still the wisest choice to wrestle through all of this once I have some spare time. In the end it is just too good to not use.
Someone came up with a way of creating the maps for Reaticulate using Google sheets. Search for posts from user MauroPantin in this thread:

https://vi-control.net/community/thr...9#post-4549110
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Old 05-10-2020, 02:05 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by DaniloVillanova View Post
Someone came up with a way of creating the maps for Reaticulate using Google sheets. Search for posts from user MauroPantin in this thread:

https://vi-control.net/community/thr...9#post-4549110
This looks interesting, thanks! Will check out as soon as I have a little time.
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Old 05-10-2020, 08:06 PM   #376
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@schwa,

Is there hope for a native notation to articulation mapper given we are well into version 6?
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Old 05-12-2020, 01:29 AM   #377
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I'm happy to see there's much more interest than I expected

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Unfortunately native articulation maps won't save you from this either. The solution (in either case) is just a better means of sharing, but one way or the other the leg work needs to be done.
Hey Tack, as I mentioned I really appreciate your efforts. Reaticulate is a big step in the right direction and unlike most ReaAddons, it's even visually appealing

My background is in indie game development, and I've participated in countless bright, fully baked homebrew projects/modifications vanished in a blink of an eye, dragging away all of its contributors' efforts. As I value your intentions and time you put into this dearly, I just don't want to do leg work for something that could also disappear when you just got bored.

That's until you switch it to a commercial product, which at least give us rights to bicker and tatter and request features that suck your soul for a dime.

On the other hand, I'd be happy to contribute to an official addon, at least knowing that would be maintained for a time. I believe tools as big and fundamental as this should not be tackled by non-paid individuals but merged into the core itself, and then some bright person like you can mod it to an even better tool.
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Old 05-12-2020, 05:39 AM   #378
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As I value your intentions and time you put into this dearly, I just don't want to do leg work for something that could also disappear when you just got bored.

That's until you switch it to a commercial product, which at least give us rights to bicker and tatter and request features that suck your soul for a dime.
This is an interesting perspective. I suppose having paid for a commercial product would put you on more solid moral ground to complain about it (though, please, don't let that stop you ). It's not like there's isn't a precedent for one-man commercial products to whither and die. Paying for a product doesn't insulate it from this fate (especially when there aren't enough users to fully replace one's income).

Indeed, one of the main reasons I open sourced Reaticulate was to mitigate this risk. Should I suddenly defect to Cubase and lose interest in Reaper, or get hit a bus, or drop dead from COVID-19, at least the code is there for others in the community to move forward with. Open source isn't a sufficient condition for that outcome of course, but it's a necessary one (notwithstanding an explicit rite of succession).

As a matter of fact, I consider this a risk with Reaper itself. It's not like Cockos is a big dev shop. Near as I can tell, we have Justin and schwa as the only developers, and that's an alarmingly low bus factor.


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On the other hand, I'd be happy to contribute to an official addon, at least knowing that would be maintained for a time. I believe tools as big and fundamental as this should not be tackled by non-paid individuals but merged into the core itself, and then some bright person like you can mod it to an even better tool.
That was actually my initial intention with Reaticulate. I started development on it before articulation maps were previewed, and once they were, I halted work to see how native articulation maps would shake out. I expected they would remain low level enough that there would still be some value in a plugin to provide improved UX. Once old and busted articulation maps were dropped for the new hotness of automation items, I picked back up and now here we are today.

But I'm still somewhat holding back some ideas to see where native articulation maps goes. Reaper has added a few features that make custom articulations workable, and even though it's still missing a couple things, by now I'd have been heavily prototyping this approach (instead of PC events) were it not for the fear that articulation maps will suddenly drop and obsolete it all.

So I too would like this feature natively implemented -- even though, I suspect, it would involve sacrificing a few of Reaticulate's capabilities (like this one) -- and have Reaticulate focus on improved UX.
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Old 05-12-2020, 05:58 AM   #379
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Hey Jason,

the big advantage of Reaticulate is, that it is actually designed by someone who understands what is needed in this area. So, I don't see myself switching anytime soon, because in the meanwhile it's so deeply weaved into my workflow that I couldn't go thru the trouble to reconfigure everything.
I highly value your work on Reaticulate and cannot wait for future versions!
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:11 AM   #380
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@tack I feel the greatest solution would be if Justin/Schwa contacted you and you worked out a way with them to make Reaticulate an official extension of Reaper with some kind of native UI that allows to quickly create articulation maps.
I imagine it to have rows and columns similar to the Region Manager/Track Manager/Resources windows where you have fields for "vendor", "library", "articulation name", "keyswitch", "Icon" (where you can type a name or right-click to open a popup with selectable icons), "color" (where you can type a value or right-click to open the usual color selection window) and maybe some columns for "CC Output" and other attributes which I haven't checked yet how they work.
Once you set it up they way you like with a bunch of libraries and articulations you press "apply" and it saves your settings.
Afterwards you should be able to toggle the Reaticulate dock/window with a key command (like the mixer/editor/mediaexplorer) and for each track you should be able to rightclick the UI and have a context menu open which shows you vendor > library and choose one for your track and when you click it see all articulations the way you have set them up.
And if you go into the Midi Editor you should be able to select Reaticulate in the controller lane and see the various articulation names listed there corresponding to the track on which the Midi part is that you are working on.
It is arguable how it would best work from there on but IMO it would be best if you can either select a note and click onto an articulation so it adds a little triangle (or whatever shape) in the CC lane to indicate it is active from that note onwards or you can click and drag a line in the CC lane in the row of the articulation you want and it keeps that articulation for the duration of that line.

This is just how it would work in my dreams, but I guess it is highly unlikely to happen so any work on articulation management from either the side of Cocko's or tack is highly appreciated.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:32 AM   #381
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Default The many methods of implementing articulations

Agree with the idea of having the articulation mapper be able to adjust to as many possibilities of triggering articulations of the plethora of sample libraries and ways they work.

Linking notation events to articulations would be very cool and this was somewhat how it was done when we had it in Reaper 5.3 all those pre-releases ago!

The way Dorico 3.5 allows for triggering various articulations from different libraries and then smartly manipulate the CC lane for dynamics notated and such or trigger specific articulations via the score editor would be very cool to do in REAPER as we assign articulation names / events and add our own CC values / keyswitch triggers and various other methods of control so we can work seamlessly after initially taking the time to setup our articulation maps per track / instrument / library.

Integrating and combining both the notation editor and the piano roll editor hand-in-hand would be great, as we could change articulations via a menu or CC lane, or via articulation marking changes, allowing for a great workflow overall!

Here's how Dorico very recently implemented and improved their version of articulation switching:
https://youtu.be/xmQcQeBokQk
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:48 AM   #382
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I'm inclined to think this feature went back to the drawing board. Is there a thread about Articulation mapping in Feature Suggestions forum? I searched but couldn't find any. I think it's healthier to write down our expectations there.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:46 AM   #383
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Indeed, one of the main reasons I open sourced Reaticulate was to mitigate this risk. Should I suddenly defect to Cubase and lose interest in Reaper, or get hit a bus, or drop dead from COVID-19, at least the code is there for others in the community to move forward with.
Let's hope, none of this does happen! ;-) Nontheless, I bow my head in respect because it clearly shows that you value the survivability of Reaticulate more than the possibility to generate some income.

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As a matter of fact, I consider this a risk with Reaper itself.
I think you nailed it.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:38 AM   #384
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I'm inclined to think this feature went back to the drawing board. Is there a thread about Articulation mapping in Feature Suggestions forum? I searched but couldn't find any. I think it's healthier to write down our expectations there.
I had submitted this and posted around many times in hopes of a development:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=228884
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Old 08-28-2020, 07:06 AM   #385
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Default any news? :-)

Hi all!

I was wondering if there's any news or development on the whole "articulations" matter.

Thanks so much!

Best

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Old 08-28-2020, 07:25 AM   #386
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I got involved with Reaticulate after losing hope with a built-in articulation manager, and actually can't give it up now. I hope Cockos just devours it, if an articulation manager ever happens
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:25 PM   #387
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I'm still hoping for something even more integrated and "note-based", similar to Logic's Articulation Sets.

Fingers crossed :-)
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:37 PM   #388
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I wouldn't get my hopes too high, here.
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Old 08-28-2020, 04:05 PM   #389
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Articulations are mainly used in orchestral stuff, I think most reaper users are not interested in articulations or notation.. and the devs know it.

The devs said articulations would happen in Reaper 6... maybe they meant in any update from R6 to R6.99 ... whatever I lost hope too.

Anyway I recommend you having a look to Cubase and Dorico they are having a lot of interest on articulations and notation, I am really impressed. I guess it has to do with Hans Zimmer and other famous composers need articulations so badly, so they are focusing a lot to keep and gain more composers, marketing ... There is an updated list of famous composers but with their daw but I can't find it now, anyway this old one would explain the point:

https://gist.github.com/h3xxx/1ea4e8...361d6500cd6a13

Have a look to Dorico ... really impressive, professional notation and professional articulation management:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmQcQeBokQk

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Old 08-28-2020, 04:14 PM   #390
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Articulations are mainly used in orchestral stuff, I think most reaper users are not interested in articulations or notation ... and the devs know it. Just have a look to notation in Reaper ... a basic tool to do little things.

The devs said articulations would happen in Reaper 6... maybe they meant in any update from R6 to R6.99 ... whatever I lost hope too.

Anyway I recommend you having a look to Cubase and Dorico they are having a lot of interest on articulations and notation, I am really impressed. I guess it has to do with Hans Zimmer and other famous composers need articulations so badly, so they are focusing a lot to keep and gain more composers, marketing ... There is an updated list of famous composers but with their daw but I can't find it now, anyway this old one would explain the point:
https://gist.github.com/h3xxx/1ea4e8...361d6500cd6a13

These are the last updates in articulations in Dorico, really impressive, professional notation and professional articulations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmQcQeBokQk

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Old 08-28-2020, 05:06 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagalume View Post
Articulations are mainly used in orchestral stuff, I think most reaper users are not interested in articulations or notation ... and the devs know it. Just have a look to notation in Reaper ... a basic tool to do little things.

The devs said articulations would happen in Reaper 6... maybe they meant in any update from R6 to R6.99 ... whatever I lost hope too.

Anyway I recommend you having a look to Cubase and Dorico they are having a lot of interest on articulations and notation, I am really impressed. I guess it has to do with Hans Zimmer and other famous composers need articulations so badly, so they are focusing a lot to keep and gain more composers, marketing ... There is an updated list of famous composers but with their daw but I can't find it now, anyway this old one would explain the point:
https://gist.github.com/h3xxx/1ea4e8...361d6500cd6a13

These are the last updates in articulations in Dorico, really impressive, professional notation and professional articulations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmQcQeBokQk
Thanks Vagalume, I know and am very familiar with those softwares, and I suggested I consider their implementation "ok" but Logic's is even better.
I love Reaper so much that I still hope this will come here as well, otherwise I'll be forced to switch away from it, and really don't want to!
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Old 08-28-2020, 05:28 PM   #392
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I just want a key switch lane in the MIDI editor to sit in place with the Velocity lane etc, for nearly all the plugins I use, that is all that is needed.
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Old 08-29-2020, 12:25 AM   #393
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Thanks Vagalume, I know and am very familiar with those softwares, and I suggested I consider their implementation "ok" but Logic's is even better.
I love Reaper so much that I still hope this will come here as well, otherwise I'll be forced to switch away from it, and really don't want to!
I understand and I do love Reaper too but the sad reality is that If you or anyone want to use professionally notation and articulations the switch to another daw will happen sooner or later, you can't avoid the inevitable ... ok, maybe with notation you can buy an independent software and use Reaper at the same time but if something would get done about articulations would possibly be basic and non-functional like notation ... it is a lot of work for just two people, they could have talked to Tack but ...
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Old 08-29-2020, 12:56 PM   #394
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I understand and I do love Reaper too but the sad reality is that If you or anyone want to use professionally notation and articulations the switch to another daw will happen sooner or later, you can't avoid the inevitable ... ok, maybe with notation you can buy an independent software and use Reaper at the same time but if something would get done about articulations would possibly be basic and non-functional like notation ... it is a lot of work for just two people, they could have talked to Tack but ...
mmm, ok thanks for your suggestions!
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Old 08-29-2020, 01:13 PM   #395
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... it is a lot of work for just two people, they could have talked to Tack but ...
I completely agree. They could also have talked to Sexan concerning area selection. Or just hire Julian Sader for all the MIDI stuff. But apparently the devs donít like these kind of collaborations.
IMHO a really huge missed opportunity.
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Old 08-30-2020, 02:03 AM   #396
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It's clear that all those 3rd party contributors are doing God's work. What I imply by "collaborating with them" might be just a deeper access to Reaper's codebase for all those fantastic people, so they can deliver more robust, optimized and handy tools. I'm almost happy with what Reaticulate is now, but can't help to think how it would be awesome if it's built into FX window, can communicate with Reaper without middleman-JSFX, can use internal signaling instead of MIDI MSB.

I can't assume Reaper Dev's approach to "Extending Reaper", but having all those great tools with some external GUI implementation with their guts out turns Reaper slowly into this, where it can be this.
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Old 08-30-2020, 02:36 AM   #397
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Yep, couldnít agree more on everything you wrote.
I really hope the devs realize at some point how important the scripters scene is for REAPER.
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Old 08-31-2020, 06:09 PM   #398
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Also agree on that too!

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Old 08-31-2020, 09:30 PM   #399
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Yep, couldnít agree more on everything you wrote.
I really hope the devs realize at some point how important the scripters scene is for REAPER.
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Also agree on that too!

Yep....
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Old 09-01-2020, 05:36 AM   #400
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Is that a joke ?
Reaper developers don't know how important scripters are.
JS
C++
Python
LUA
Go use that other DAW that caters to scripters as much, oh wait hahaha, yeah the developers really don't know.
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