v6.38+dev1020 - October 20 2021

[Pink Wool]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

It's not only about making a new item. It's also how comps are stored. I think a list of comps that you can load is not that clear as a separate lane for each take and comp. You always see what you got. With playlists you could copy edited comps alias playlists as a new playlist that you edit further e.g. for client revisions.
How will that work using the comping system, when you need to edit, stretch, pitch etc parts of items? This is super easy if your playlist just contains the media items you copied there from your "source" playlists like this:



Save a state by duplicating it, edit the items in all the ways, reaper already offers and just move on. What about ARA for example. Having playlists in a kind of "subtrack", melodyne could be applied to single playlists to compare edited vs rough for example. Every playlist just could be a normal new track with just a different naming and slightly different behaviour as it is linked to the main track. So many possibilities...

We already have colors for playlist coding. I think about sitting there with a client and talking about the takes we made. "Could I listen to the blue one until bar 3 and then take the red one". Super easy. We nearly already have everything we need for that. Why take an extra mile to get a less flexible system? I don't get it.

I think you're right on point! No reason for a much more complicated system...

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

.
How will that work using the comping system, when you need to edit, stretch, pitch etc parts of items?

Wait and see? This was an experimental build and I'm sure the devs got enough info to carry on from here. Why do you think we won't be able to edit further the item in item lanes? Playlists in Protools is not the only system allowing this...
That's also my concern and i want to be able and edit the items in lanes.
Again this build was experimental and when you were editing something some markers were changing and the comp was changing, but it's been pointed out for future development.
But hey it's a big feature and needs a lot of time to polish nicely, so we have to wait and see.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

But hey it's a big feature and needs a lot of time to polish nicely, so we have to wait and see.

definitly and as I said: I really appreciate all the work that goes in there. I hate pro tools and i really wanna get rid of it completely but in big multitrack sessions, I still have to use it. So I just fear reaper could miss the chance

[Triode]

Originally Posted by nofish

As solo markers are stored with comps, just save the takes uncomped as (another) comp which you could then use to A/B?

(The Take Comps section of Project bay might not be that well known till now and honestly so far I didn't have much use for it either, but I guess this could change with this new comping system):

That means having to do an action to preserve the point at which no action has happened. I'd argue that's inefficient. Plus if you do more recording you then have to re save the new uncomped state for new recordings.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by schwa

This is the general idea. Run the action "add solo-in marker at cursor" to solo a media item within its track:



You can also set the media item left-drag mouse modifier to "solo item within track ignoring snap" (note: just noticed the not ignoring snap version will still partially respect snapping, a bug):



Also please note this feature is likely to take a lot of time to get right.

Rad! This is basically Logic X's comping behavior for the last 10 or so years, minus the playlist feature. Logic has both this and playlist which is absolutely the way to go.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

Well, in this case it is not their own thing. Swipe comping exists in bitwig and ligic for example. The thing is that pro tools playlists are way more powerful. Most comp systems fail when audio editing is applied and items have to be split/moves/corrected.
Don't get me wrong, I'm leaping for joy that this topic gets in focus. But I really want to see that core feature which is so necessary for many many professionally recording people to be implemented perfectly. And I really think that pro tools nailed it. It's probably the only thing they did right but it is so good and fullfills nearly everything that people need who are recording pressed for time.

One more thing: item fx dont seem to be compatible with that swipe comping. No problem with playlists. Just glue the comp to another playlist, keep your comp and your rough takes and hide everything except the glued comp so everything stays clean visually.

Just FYI, Logic X has Pro Tools' EXACT playlist comping in addition to what is being demonstrated in this beta. So really, Logic is king for comping.

Logic also has comp copies (that you can name separately and make as many versions of) as part of their quick swipe comping so you can quickly a/b comps, and or copy different comps to different playlists if it's less confusing. So really, the Devs should just buy Logic X and copy its take system. It's very very close to Reaper + Pro Tools, just better.

Your point about item FX not being compatible with swipe comping is just reason numero uno why we need a playlist take feature. Item FX is one of the best things about mixing in Reaper (Logic has it as well, but its not quite as good IMO). And to the poster who said Avid would sue for copying playlists, they never sued DP, Logic et all that use this system so that really is not an issue.

[Ann-82]

Originally Posted by thermos

Just FYI, Logic X has Pro Tools' EXACT playlist comping in addition to what is being demonstrated in this beta. So really, Logic is king for comping.

As far as i know Logic X has got by default a swipe comp system, which is really limited and chaotic in my opinion (really similar to the actual comp system of reaper right now). Much better in Logic is an option called Alternative Takes, this one reflects much more the way pro tools works with playlist. In alternative takes you are able to edit, change the gain structure of different items in lane, move them, add as many lanes as you need, rename it, create new comp lanes the and many mores. But in my experience Pro Tools works way cleaner and better then logic does.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Ann-82

As far as i know Logic X has got by default a swipe comp system, which is really limited and chaotic in my opinion (really similar to the actual comp system of reaper right now). Much better in Logic is an option called Alternative Takes, this one reflects much more the way pro tools works with playlist. In alternative takes you are able to edit, change the gain structure of different items in lane, move them, add as many lanes as you need, rename it, create new comp lanes the and many mores. But in my experience Pro Tools works way cleaner and better then logic does.

This is literally exactly what I said above.

For those of you still confused, the advantage of logics take system is you can use pro tools exact take system, or take lanes like reaper, or both together!

[Gass n Klang]

as far as I can see in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkdAWcU57Sc&t=0s logic comping also works with representations of the comped items in the destination lane. I think Pro Tools shines there, using copies and not just visual representations of the items used. This way you can edit your comp how you like and also edit the items in different ways for each comp.

[coolbass]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Call them comp markers not solo markers. This "special" nomenclature that is Reaper only doesn't help anyone, really...

I agree 1000%.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by Phazma

I guess different people just have different preferences.. I have used Logic before and always hated that tool system, Reaper was such a relief. In Logic I ended up just mapping eraser tool to right mouse button (thanks god that was possible!) and didn't bother about the other tools. They had marquee which was like Reaper's RE.. I never used it because it was annoying to switch back and forth between tools just for different types of selections. In Reaper on the other hand I started using RE for some things because I have conveniently mapped it to alt drag and it's just there for when I need it. Also I love in Reaper I can just stretch an item by dragging the edge and holding a modifier instead of having to enter some kind of "stretch mode" and exit again when I am done.

In Reaper I for example have delete item on cmd+click. You really think hitting E before being able to delete and then again hitting another key to go back to standard tool is faster than just briefly holding cmd and not worry afterwards? And not just for delete, you would need a different hotkey for RE, one for split, one for stretch etc.. you would sacrifice 5+ keys, having to memorize them all and jump all around your keyboard each time you want to do a different type of edit rather than just briefly press a modifier?

The genius thing about modifiers is that they are context dependent. You can use the same modifier to stretch items, delete items, zoom arrange, razor edit etc.. just based on your mouse position. One key, dozens of features. Feels like a natural extension of the mouse to me, I always have my index, middle finger and ring finger on the three modifiers and they just do their thing without me having to think. Rarely I need to move my left hand to press a hotkey. It would be horror having to hunt for different hotkeys for every different type of edit.

Modifiers are like holding a swiss army knife always in your hand and if you need a knife you have it at your fingertypes, a screwdriver too, a bottle opener too.. you develop some dexterity and you can almost operate it with one hand. Vs. tools approach is, you have a knife lying around, a screwdriver lying around, a bottle opener lying around and each time you need something you need to search and grab it before you can use it and put it back before you can use something else.

Sure, as an additional feature I welcome the addition of tools, but please don't ditch the modifier system. Getting rid of multiplte tools is one of the first great things I noticed when switching to Reaper. Just like having no track types.. everything goes and you just build your ideal workflow instead of forcing things onto the user.

There is a limit number of modifiers which means we cannot have all the operations as modifiers so we need to choose which actions we want to use .. so the lack of modes is limiting, also muds and makes complex to know features and to use them. I think this a fact and not a preference.

[Phazma]

Originally Posted by deeb

There is a limit number of modifiers which means we cannot have all the operations as modifiers so we need to choose which actions we want to use .. so the lack of modes is limiting, also muds and makes complex to know features and to use them. I think this a fact and not a preference.

Well in my personal experience up to now it worked well with modifiers. But I agree that if we are adding more and more mouse features it can become crowded. As said tools can be a cool addition to mouse modifiers but not replace them. For mouse-related features they could give both options to to us users and we can decide ourselves how we want to work.

For example we might assign alt+Ldrag as mouse modifier to temporarily turn the cursor into razor edit mode and at the same time have alt+r as key command to toggle the razor edit tool which remains until we toggle it off again.

Or what makes more sense (than the above redundancy) we could decide we want to do razor edit only as tool and delete its mouse modifiers so they are free for other things. For example we could assign only alt+r shortcut for toggling the razor edit tool and free up alt+Ldrag modifier to be used for marquee zoom.

Basically tools would help to take load off the mouse modifiers and it would make sense (IMO) to assign functions which one tends to use for longer periods at a time to tools and those which are usually just needed for 1sec at a time (or which are alternated quickly between normal cursor and special function) to mouse modifiers.

(btw I don’t know the defaurt mouse modifiers, so I just used random ones in my previous examples)

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

It's not only about making a new item.

In fact I don't see a clear advantage in using items on tracks to do comping into a new item on some track, vs using the takes and enhancing the take system by optionally showing a result "take" on top. looks and potentially could be enhanced to work like Logic.
-Michael

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by mschnell

In fact I don't see a clear advantage in using items on tracks to do comping into a new item on some track, vs using the takes and enhancing the take system by optionally showing a result "take" in top.
-Michael

The disadvantages of the current take system with its endless splits in the source media are discussed more than enough I think.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

as far as I can see in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkdAWcU57Sc&t=0s logic comping also works with representations of the comped items in the destination lane. I think Pro Tools shines there, using copies and not just visual representations of the items used. This way you can edit your comp how you like and also edit the items in different ways for each comp.

You can do that in logic too, using the alternate takes. They make actual copies just like pro tools. Trust me, I’ve spent 100s-1000s of hours with each system.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by thermos

You can do that in logic too, using the alternate takes. They make actual copies just like pro tools. Trust me, I’ve spent 100s-1000s of hours with each system.

ok cool!

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

The disadvantages of the current take system with its endless splits in the source media are discussed more than enough I think.

One result of such discussions was that the splits are not strictly necessary.. Proof is that there is a script that avoids this when recording by (AFAIU) enhancing the item (with all old takes) or enhancing the newly recorded take by silence in front and back. The comping could be done by means of the take mute envelopes. No splits there as well.
Of course right now this is not a decent use of the take system, but maybe it can be enhanced on that technical basis. At least the infrastructure seems already to be mostly in place.

-Michael

[odedd]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

I think Pro Tools shines there, using copies and not just visual representations of the items used. This way you can edit your comp how you like and also edit the items in different ways for each comp.

I think you're right on the money.
- Being able to have multiple comps edited independently of the original takes.
- Having those takes be independent of one another - the current system forces, or at least benefits, having all takes in the same exact timing, which in turn "punishes" users from doing spontaneous punch-ins without pre-planning so we hit exact punch-in and punch-out. I hope that's clear.
- Quickly and non-destructively listening to "non selected" takes.

These are crucial IMO.

I've been using Cubase for 25 years, Pro-Tools for 14. I'm deeply familiar with the way both are handling takes and comping. Pro-Tools has got it both simple and right - it's the hands down winner of comping.

Which is why, just like you, while I'm totally appreciative of the work that's being done (Reaper got me to ditch both PT and Cubase in a heartbeat. I LOVE IT!), I think it's super important to nail it down.

[J Riley Hill]

Originally Posted by thermos

This is literally exactly what I said above.

For those of you still confused, the advantage of logics take system is you can use pro tools exact take system, or take lanes like reaper, or both together!

I agree, having both would be great. Really think it's neat that the comping system is having some work done, but would love to see Reaper keep it's current take system and add a track alternates / playlist style feature a long side it.

I would echo all of Gass n Klang comments, it's really the main thing that keeps me from using Reaper in my day to day engineering work where I'm doing lots of recording. Or doing any multitrack recordings like drums, and full band takes.