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12-07-2019, 08:53 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,423
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Nice thing about music is, the rules are made to be broken.
Perfect example is Hey Joe. C - G - D - A - E. What key is that???
Hendrix played his licks in Em tuned down a half step, Eb minor, but in Em, A minor is the IV chord, not A major.
Nothing says you can't change keys in the middle of a song, even if for just a little bit.
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12-07-2019, 09:00 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Curaçao
Posts: 410
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It's called a borrowed chord, the Fm chord would be a borrowed iv chord in the C major scale. I like 'em
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12-07-2019, 09:04 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mplay
It's called a borrowed chord, the Fm chord would be a borrowed iv chord in the C major scale. I like 'em
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what other chords can be borrowed?
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12-07-2019, 09:06 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toleolu
Nice thing about music is, the rules are made to be broken.
Perfect example is Hey Joe. C - G - D - A - E. What key is that???
Hendrix played his licks in Em tuned down a half step, Eb minor, but in Em, A minor is the IV chord, not A major.
Nothing says you can't change keys in the middle of a song, even if for just a little bit.
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i don't think its a change in key though in this song right?
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12-07-2019, 09:08 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,636
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It's totally in the key. In C, F is the IV chord. F minor is simply the minor IV, or IV minor, depending on who first showed you If a song is in C, for example, adding any chord, no matter how it seems to change things, won't change the fact that the song is in C (unless it takes off having actually modulated into another key.)
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12-07-2019, 09:16 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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FYI: Fm is also the first "negative harmony" chord derived from the key of C.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-07-2019, 09:19 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
FYI: Fm is also the first "negative harmony" chord derived from the key of C.
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why is that?
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12-07-2019, 09:24 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by read
why is that?
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Because with negative harmony you harmonize the chords from the scale with the same interval pattern but in the opposite direction AKA mirroring 1-3-5. But that's not a concern really for the original question, just noting it in an off topic kind of way.
Here's a screenshot... All I did was use the same intervals to create the C Major but in a negative direction, so basically recreating the interval symmetry as the opposite:
You can harmonize the entire scale that way but it's way advanced and esoteric compared to the original question. It is however likely related to why you can get away with an Fm placed just so in a song that is in C and normally uses the F Major. It works well as a transitional chord in the key of C.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-07-2019 at 09:32 AM.
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12-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Because with negative harmony you harmonize the chords from the scale with the same interval pattern but in the opposite direction AKA mirroring 1-3-5. But that's not a concern really for the original question, just noting it in an off topic kind of way.
Here's a screenshot... All I did was use the same intervals to create the C Major but in a negative direction, so basically recreating the interval symmetry as the opposite:
You can harmonize the entire scale that way but it's way advanced and esoteric compared to the original question. It is however likely related to why you can get away with an Fm placed just so in a song that is in C and normally uses the F Major. It works well as a transitional chord in the key of C.
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i see what you mean now....so its based like being a mirror image so has some common things at least.
will have to learn more on this thanks Karbomusic
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12-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,423
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It's always possible that the Fm in the song you are referring to is what they call a passing tone. Something you throw in there to give the song a little more nuanced feel or effect. Looks like that Fm shows up only in the chorus and bridge so that might be what they were thinking.
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12-07-2019, 09:39 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toleolu
It's always possible that the Fm in the song you are referring to is what they call a passing tone. Something you throw in there to give the song a little more nuanced feel or effect.
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I think there are probably 50 things that make it work It also works as a substitute for F Major (or C depending), also if you go F Major, F Minor, C then you are walking the third down via A > Ab > G and almost anytime you have a note that walks with chromatic voice leading, it sounds nice.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-07-2019, 09:41 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I think there are probably 50 things that make it work It also works as a substitute for F Major (or C depending), also if you go F Major, F Minor, C then you are walking the third down via A > Ab > G and almost anytime you have a note that walks with chromatic voice leading, it sounds nice.
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At least 50!!
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12-07-2019, 09:46 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by read
i see what you mean now....so its based like being a mirror image so has some common things at least.
will have to learn more on this thanks Karbomusic
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Some explanation...
https://youtu.be/iHPFAQj0Geg?t=222
Here's what happens when someone transforms an entire song to the negative harmony equivalent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvg_G957wo
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-07-2019, 09:51 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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is it really though?
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12-07-2019, 09:53 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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i'd love to see the theory behind some of these vids
but yes negative harmony is amazing. I think Fm6 is the negative version tho, but is that C or Cmaj7
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12-07-2019, 09:55 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
i'd love to see the theory behind some of these vids
but yes negative harmony is amazing. I think Fm6 is the negative version tho, but is that C or Cmaj7
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For the 4 note chord I think so Cmaj7=Fm6? I didn't check just guessing... The basic diatonic triad of an inverted C is just Fm.
You are right though, not much excuse for being in a rut hehe.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-07-2019, 11:06 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
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interesting! thanks for the vids
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12-07-2019, 03:28 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
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Coolest thing I've seen today.
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12-07-2019, 04:50 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 'straya
Posts: 9,409
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It's maybe possible to factor the Fm chord as a temporary modulation to F Harmonic minor, which has C Maj as it's 5th chord.
i.e modulation from C Maj key to the 4th [F] Harmonic minor key, then back to C Maj key again.
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12-07-2019, 04:53 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,030
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This is a really interesting question that can be answered differently based on the style of music and the underlying harmony involved.
Negative harmonies are certainly cool theoretically. Neo-Riemannian theory is largely based on the geometric patterns formed with consonant triads which is related to negative harmonies. In this case, the C major is "transformed" into F minor. (more info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Riemannian_theory).
Another explanation using Schenkerian analysis (a different music theory) is that the F minor is a borrowed chord from some other key (as mentioned earlier in the thread). This sort of "borrowing" happens a lot, though the types of chords that are borrowed often depend on when the song/piece was written and the harmonic idioms common for the era or style.
In this case, F minor in a C major key is typical of mixture from a parallel key. That is, F minor does not exist in C major, but F minor does exist in C minor. In this case, the root is still C, so the borrowed chord probably sounds fairly smooth (doesn't stick out too drastically).
You asked earlier what other chords could be borrowed. In reality, any chord could be borrowed. However, the more remote the chord is from the current key the more abrupt or jarring the effect. Try playing an F minor chord followed by a B minor chord and you'll get my point.
Some basic information on modal mixture:
http://openmusictheory.com/modalMixture.html
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12-07-2019, 08:10 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: West Coast - Sun, Sun, and more Sun
Posts: 719
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absolutely refreshing reading through a thread of musicians discussing music and theory and educated opinions...
chord theory and key's, cancels all the noise in a busy head.
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