Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER for Live Use

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-30-2020, 02:56 PM   #1
Shepo1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 5
Default Church Live stream sound mixing with Reaper

HI, been poking around, and not sure if i have found what i was looking for, so will ask.
Set up is M32 at FOH with Dante Card. 32 channels on Dante to PC in live-stream /broadcast room running WIN 10/Reaper/Dante Virtual sound card.
Audio I/O in reaper set to AISO/Dante 32 in 2 out.
Dante 2 out goes to a Dante/AES converter and on to our AES to SDI converter to mix with the video feed.
Then I setup up track/channels in Reaper for each input channel as well as normal busses and effects busses and all that stuff. Pretty standard.( pretty much set it up like a M32 type mixer
I am using various plugins on the different tracks,
arm all tracks to record, and have it set for record monitoring so i can hear the incoming audio and effects and mix it to the output which then feeds our live steam.
Some times i record the tracks, some times not. ( I like to record the pre service practice, and use that to premix the audio for the service) All seems to work fine, other then we seem to be having a delay/latency issue on some tracks vs others. For example, when watching the live feed play back, later in the day, it seems like the acoustic guitar and vocals are lagging the beat, when compared to like the drums. The band plays to a click, thru IEM so that should be right on for them ( not part of the live mix system at all) So, wondering if some how my use of different plugins for different things is some how causing this latency on specific tracks. I am not really on top of how the PDC works for live mixing like this. Or maybe i have some setting that need to be tweaked. ? I looked at the perfomace monitor I think its called and saw some tracks or plug ins with 0 pdc, and others with 2048 if i recall ( related to reverbs that were inserted on specific channels ) I am not really concerned with the overall latency of the end mix as no one is trying to overdub tracks or play back along with it, just that all things are time aligned with each other when they come out of reaper and are sent back out the output to be mixed with the video. I am not sure if this is a reaper thing.. or something else.. so any advise or things to check would be helpful ! I read something about live vs pre cacluated effects ? or some setting related to that.. not sure if that is anything related. Thanks for your time
Shepo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2020, 09:31 PM   #2
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,376
Default

Of course it's best to avoid PDC for any live usage. If you use ReaVerb you can set it to zero Latency by checking "ZL". It will cost some more CPU but I found it works perfectly.

While in theory PDS should compensate any delay introduced by plugins in a "monitoring" situation by delaying all other tracks accordingly, there often are some problems.
Do you find the bad synchronicity in playback, as well ?

In Reaper, there is a delay setting for any track in the routing menu, that can be set to positive and negative values. I don't know how exactly it works regarding monitoring and playback situations.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 07-17-2020 at 07:44 AM.
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 01:25 PM   #3
Shepo1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 5
Default

I use a lot a waves stuff. So not sure about how that might be effecting things
Shepo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2020, 07:57 AM   #4
onewayout
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So Florida
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepo1 View Post
HI, been poking around, and not sure if i have found what i was looking for, so will ask.
Set up is M32 at FOH with Dante Card. 32 channels on Dante to PC in live-stream /broadcast room running WIN 10/Reaper/Dante Virtual sound card.
Audio I/O in reaper set to AISO/Dante 32 in 2 out.
Dante 2 out goes to a Dante/AES converter and on to our AES to SDI converter to mix with the video feed.
Then I setup up track/channels in Reaper for each input channel as well as normal busses and effects busses and all that stuff. Pretty standard.( pretty much set it up like a M32 type mixer
I am using various plugins on the different tracks,
arm all tracks to record, and have it set for record monitoring so i can hear the incoming audio and effects and mix it to the output which then feeds our live steam.
Some times i record the tracks, some times not. ( I like to record the pre service practice, and use that to premix the audio for the service) All seems to work fine, other then we seem to be having a delay/latency issue on some tracks vs others. For example, when watching the live feed play back, later in the day, it seems like the acoustic guitar and vocals are lagging the beat, when compared to like the drums. The band plays to a click, thru IEM so that should be right on for them ( not part of the live mix system at all) So, wondering if some how my use of different plugins for different things is some how causing this latency on specific tracks. I am not really on top of how the PDC works for live mixing like this. Or maybe i have some setting that need to be tweaked. ? I looked at the perfomace monitor I think its called and saw some tracks or plug ins with 0 pdc, and others with 2048 if i recall ( related to reverbs that were inserted on specific channels ) I am not really concerned with the overall latency of the end mix as no one is trying to overdub tracks or play back along with it, just that all things are time aligned with each other when they come out of reaper and are sent back out the output to be mixed with the video. I am not sure if this is a reaper thing.. or something else.. so any advise or things to check would be helpful ! I read something about live vs pre cacluated effects ? or some setting related to that.. not sure if that is anything related. Thanks for your time

What Platform do you stream this on Shepo1?
onewayout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 05:12 AM   #5
bwlinux
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepo1 View Post
I use a lot a waves stuff. So not sure about how that might be effecting things
Did you solve your problem?

When I was reading your original post it felt like a post I would have written last month. For me the big problem was the Reatune plugin, it wrecked the vocal tracks with massive delay.

Now that I know what to look for, I don't have the problem. Here's what I do...

open the FX window for each track, look in the bottom left where you see the CPU and spls values.
If the spls are anything other for the top number in the spls fraction then you have a plugin introducing delay on that channel. The second number in the #/# spls fraction shows the total delay for the track BTW.

To get that plugin to zero delay, select the plugin
right click on the " #/# in # out" button toward the top right
Go down to PDC, select the Disable option

That usually does it for me.

I've used the Waves Chris Lord plugins as well as the Waves Tune Real-Time plugin like this without issues.

We are probably dropping the Chris Lord plugins because of the extra cost of licensing on multiple computers. (Original license was donated)

I really like the setup you have with the M32 to Reaper via Dante. It's working well for us. We output to vMix where the audio meets the video on it's way out to the streaming universe.

BTW: If you haven't found the SWS extension and looked at the snapshot feature you are missing out. I'm using that coupled with a custom made TouchOSC screen on an iPad sending keystrokes to manage the snapshots (aka scenes on the Midas) as well as mute groups. I'm working to make the Reaper workflow as similar to the M32 as possible for our use, so if my FOH guy and I need to swap we can. Plus it makes things easier to train new people.

Now if I can sort out the gain problem since we have to share the preamp gain from the M32.
bwlinux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2020, 05:21 AM   #6
onewayout
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So Florida
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwlinux View Post
Did you solve your problem?

When I was reading your original post it felt like a post I would have written last month. For me the big problem was the Reatune plugin, it wrecked the vocal tracks with massive delay.

Now that I know what to look for, I don't have the problem. Here's what I do...

open the FX window for each track, look in the bottom left where you see the CPU and spls values.
If the spls are anything other for the top number in the spls fraction then you have a plugin introducing delay on that channel. The second number in the #/# spls fraction shows the total delay for the track BTW.

To get that plugin to zero delay, select the plugin
right click on the " #/# in # out" button toward the top right
Go down to PDC, select the Disable option

That usually does it for me.

I've used the Waves Chris Lord plugins as well as the Waves Tune Real-Time plugin like this without issues.

We are probably dropping the Chris Lord plugins because of the extra cost of licensing on multiple computers. (Original license was donated)

I really like the setup you have with the M32 to Reaper via Dante. It's working well for us. We output to vMix where the audio meets the video on it's way out to the streaming universe.

BTW: If you haven't found the SWS extension and looked at the snapshot feature you are missing out. I'm using that coupled with a custom made TouchOSC screen on an iPad sending keystrokes to manage the snapshots (aka scenes on the Midas) as well as mute groups. I'm working to make the Reaper workflow as similar to the M32 as possible for our use, so if my FOH guy and I need to swap we can. Plus it makes things easier to train new people.

Now if I can sort out the gain problem since we have to share the preamp gain from the M32.
Hey bwlinux,

What stream service are you guys using to send out video and audio?
onewayout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 03:38 AM   #7
bwlinux
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewayout View Post
Hey bwlinux,

What stream service are you guys using to send out video and audio?
restream.io

I’m not really happy with how they end the stream on FB versus us streaming directly to FB, but it simplifies things for the video person. Which in turn means he isn’t asking me for help, while I’m busy with last minute pre-show stuff.
bwlinux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2020, 03:59 AM   #8
onewayout
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So Florida
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwlinux View Post
restream.i
Thx 👍
onewayout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 09:01 AM   #9
Shepo1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 5
Default

bwlinux, thanks for the info.. I will check that out... I noticed that when I removed plugins that were showing PDC numbers in the 1000 to 2000 range, that seemed to help.. Maybe i need to change my buffer setting .. read someplace also about PDC vs Buffer and if buffer is to small, that can cause issues.. Since we are just dumping the mix out to live steam over all latency is not really a issue.. In fact, I think i need to add some delay to the audio now that i have other things working.. I was watching our live stream and i can see that Video is behind the audio. So wondering best way to do that.. I guess maybe just put Rea-delay or something like that on the Main L/R and just set a delay in mSec.. should work.. But I will looking into the PDC setting on each channel.

Yes, we have same issue of input gain. Unfortunately, not really any way around that one. Its on the FOH guy to get that set correctly, so as I train people, I hit that point over and over and over and over. ( they still seem to F it up from time to time) But getting better. Other option might be to run X/M 32 Edit remotely or Ipad with mix station or something, so you can remotely control the X32. So if I am running live mix, i can still tweak FOH if i see the volunteer person doesn't have it adjusted correctly.. Vs having to walk up to FOH and deal with it.. Not a huge deal.

Our setup we use Dante card at FOH then to PC with DVS ( Dante virtual sound card) to reaper.. 32 in. 2 out again to DVS.. then bought a couple of those Dante converters they sell. I have 1 that is Dante to Analog L/R that feeds my studio monitors. thru a Monitor controller unit ( so i can control the volume and such independently from the output of the reaper) and a second Dante to AES?EBU which feeds into a Black Magic mini converter audio to SDI, which is where the audio and video get mixed. ( video from Main room comes into unit SDI in, then mixes with audio, then back out) Seems to work well too.

We are using Living as One ( https://livingasone.com/) for our platform Which streams to embedded code on FB and Youtube. I didn't set that up, so not really up to speed on it.. But seems to work well.

Not sure what your talking about here ? "TW: If you haven't found the SWS extension and looked at the snapshot feature you are missing out" but sound interesting.. maybe you can explain if you get a chance..
Thanks for the help.
Shepo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.