Reaper's automation generating constant MIDI CC input in Kontakt/Spitfire

[Cadu Byington]

Hi,

I am using my Korg nanoKontrol2 faders to draw some automation from Kontatk. The instrument is Spitfire Audio's Chamber Strings. After I draw the first automation (let's say a violin dynamics using midi cc 00), I get a constant red light flashing (picture attached) inside Kontakt midi CC103 (like if I was sending signal from my midi controller) so I'm unable to address another parameter to another fader. I tried everything, deleting everything in the Host and MIDI sections. It happens even if I don't have any controllers at all attached to the computer. If I bypass the automation envelope it stops. It's like the written automation in Reaper is constantly sending a controller signal to Kontakt...

Does anyone ever had this issue? I couldn't find anything on this issue online...

[teniente powell]

It is a parameter used by Sandbox, the hearth of Spitfire products.

https://syntheticorchestra.com/blog/?9

All Spitfire instruments are powered by Sandbox , the system that unifies all the features across products and makes the internals of Spitfire instruments work correctly. There are some pretty innovative features within Sandbox which rely on certain CCs to work. When designing the system I picked CCs that were unused in the MIDI standard and relatively out the way. However there's always the chance that you've coincidently decided to use the same ones. Here are a list of CCs to avoid using on the same MIDI channel as a Spitfire instrument:

CC 103
CC 104
CC 106
CC 110
CC 111
CC 116
CC 117

[Cadu Byington]

Thank you teniente powell for the reply. I read this article before. The thing is that I’m not using any of these CCs, I’m not using any CC’s at all. After drawing my first and only automation for dynamics using CC 000 of my controller, I get the constant red flashing on CC 103 forever even without any controllors attached and everything reset. The only way to stop the input signal coming from CC 103 is deleting or bypassing the automation.

[teniente powell]

Originally Posted by Cadu Byington

The thing is that I’m not using any of these CCs

Those CCs are used internally by Sandbox, a mega-script of Spitfire libraries. You cannot used them, because are reserved. When you play that library, that script (Sandbox) is sending CC103 messages, but you cannot see them. In fact that script is protected, nobody can see it, just only an icon.

[Cadu Byington]

Yes but why is it sending MIDI CC input constantly? This means I’m not able to address any other CC to another fader or button because when I click learn, CC 103 is there already flashing. I don’t even have a CC 103 on my controller. There is definitely some issue going on with the Reaper written automation and Kontakt/Spitfire CCs messages.

[teniente powell]

I'm not at home now and I cannot try it, but maybe you could enter kontakt in edition mode, select Script Editor tab, and put in bypass mode the Sandbox script just only for midi learn.

[EvilDragon]

Disable Kontakt's various options to "send MIDI to outside world" in Options->Engine:

[teniente powell]

Has you read this?

http://syntheticorchestra.com/blog/?9

Kontakt 5.3 crashes when using Learn Midi CC# Automation and other UI-related actions
Windows users have also reported crashes when learning CCs to controls, changing UI pages, moving sliders and sometimes just loading patches. As with above the only real solution to this at the moment is to go back to an installation of Kontakt 5.1 or install Kontakt 4. Spitfire instruments are developed to work on 4.2 and above. I'll update this blog as soon as a fix from Native Instruments is available.. UPDATE - As of Kontakt 5.5 this issue appears to be fixed!

[Cadu Byington]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Disable Kontakt's various options to "send MIDI to outside world" in Options->Engine:

I turned everything off, I tried turning other options on, restarting Reaper etc...the behaviour is always the same...

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by Cadu Byington

Thank you teniente powell for the reply. I read this article before. The thing is that I’m not using any of these CCs, I’m not using any CC’s at all. After drawing my first and only automation for dynamics using CC 000 of my controller, I get the constant red flashing on CC 103 forever even without any controllors attached and everything reset. The only way to stop the input signal coming from CC 103 is deleting or bypassing the automation.

Perhaps you could compress a simple problem project file (no audio samples needed) into a ZIP file and post it here as an attachment so that we can have a look at it and see what's (not) happening?

How to post attachments (in Post #1)

[Cadu Byington]

Originally Posted by teniente powell

Has you read this?

http://syntheticorchestra.com/blog/?9

I read everything. I am running Kontakt 5.6.5. The only way to stop the incoming signal from the written automation is bypassing the envolope in Reaper or removing the control from Host parameter tab in Kontakt.
I'm not quite sure how to do the bypass you mentioned, in the edit scripts mode inside Kontakt.

Also the "!" button in Kontakt never affected the constant incoming CC signal.

If I disable the automation, I'm able to address my fader to another parameter because the red light at CC 103 stops. I recorded a vibrato and same behaviour happened with CC 104, I then readdressed the dynamics to the host tab, now the same thing is happening with both, CC 103 for dynamics, and CC 104 for vibrato.

It's like spitfire is acting as a controller itself when the automations are active in Reaper. (CC 103 for dynamics and CC 104 for vibrato). I can record separate automations removing them from the host tab, but this never will give me the opportunity to listen to other automations previously recorded while I'm recording an automation, and in the end I'll have to readdress all the automations for them to work at the same time...)

[DarkStar]

I do not have Spitfire Audio's library but if I have understood correctly, here's my theory
-- after you have automated the first parameter (say, violin dynamics using midi cc 00) the script is activated,
-- that script uses CC103 (and others) within Kontakt and shows them up on the Browser / Automation / MIDI Automation tab,
-- they may or may not be emitted by Kontakt.

To map another MIDI CC to another parameter, rather than using right-click >> MIDI Learn, you can

just select a source from the list (of CCs in the MIDI Automation tab) and drag it onto a knob whose parameter you want to automate.

If you want to assign a fader of a master keyboard or a MIDI controller box, but are not sure which controller number is the right one, just move the fader when the MIDI automation list is visible -KONTAKT will flash a red dot next to the respective list entry when it receives any MIDI controller data, which allows you to quickly spot and assign the appropriate controller."

[teniente powell]

Well, now I'm at home and can try differents things with Spìtfire Mural with Kontakt 5.8.1. And I can see that:

- First, Cady Byington, you said in your first post that drew the first automation, the violin dynamics, using midi CC0. It's not a good idea. CC0 is used as Bank Select. The dynamics is controlled by Modwheel, CC1. Try that.

- In my Spitfire Mural, in Reaper of course, if I don't generate activity, no CC is lighting.

- Moving the Modwheel (CC1), the CC1 lights in red. ReaControlMidi used as midi monitor (before kontakt) show me CC1 activity. The dynamics knob in Spitfire moves.

- Now, an experiment. ReaControlMidi after kontakt to see midi output monitor. Obviously, kontakt output set up to merge audio with midi. Now I move the Modwheel. CC1 lights in red, ReaControlMidi shows me CC1 activity. Now I move with the mouse the dynamics knob in Spitfire UI. Bang! CC103 activity in kontakt monitor (red light). No midi activity in ReaControlMidi. Same with vibrato knob. Moving it, CC104 lights in red. No midi activity in ReaControlMidi. If I move CC2 (I have set up the vibrato to control it with CC2), then the vibrato knob moves, and CC2 activity in kontakt and in ReaControlMidi.

It's as if the midi CC reserved by script Sandbox are only for internal use.

Great kontakt guru EvilDragon may find an explanation.

Try last DarkStar advice, assigning midi CC by draggin, not with midi learn.

[Cadu Byington]

Originally Posted by teniente powell

Well, now I'm at home and can try differents things with Spìtfire Mural with Kontakt 5.8.1. And I can see that:

- First, Cady Byington, you said in your first post that drew the first automation, the violin dynamics, using midi CC0. It's not a good idea. CC0 is used as Bank Select. The dynamics is controlled by Modwheel, CC1. Try that.

- In my Spitfire Mural, in Reaper of course, if I don't generate activity, no CC is lighting.

- Moving the Modwheel (CC1), the CC1 lights in red. ReaControlMidi used as midi monitor (before kontakt) show me CC1 activity. The dynamics knob in Spitfire moves.

- Now, an experiment. ReaControlMidi after kontakt to see midi output monitor. Obviously, kontakt output set up to merge audio with midi. Now I move the Modwheel. CC1 lights in red, ReaControlMidi shows me CC1 activity. Now I move with the mouse the dynamics knob in Spitfire UI. Bang! CC103 activity in kontakt monitor (red light). No midi activity in ReaControlMidi. Same with vibrato knob. Moving it, CC104 lights in red. No midi activity in ReaControlMidi. If I move CC2 (I have set up the vibrato to control it with CC2), then the vibrato knob moves, and CC2 activity in kontakt and in ReaControlMidi.

It's as if the midi CC reserved by script Sandbox are only for internal use.

Great kontakt guru EvilDragon may find an explanation.

Try last DarkStar advice, assigning midi CC by draggin, not with midi learn.

Yes, the same thing happens to me. If I use the mouse to change the parameters in spitfire the CCs 103 for dynamics and 104 for vibrato lights in red. I tried different methods of assignment and always got the same results. No matter what I do, if the envelope is active, Spitfire acts like a controller and keeps sending CCs signal to Kontakt constantly, making it impossible to assign other parameters to other CCs.
I tried using other CCs in host and Midi, also using different knobs, wheels and faders. Even without any controllers, just the action of opening an envelope of a Spitfire parameter, triggers the red light inside of Kontakt forever... Did you try opening the envelope? It seems you would have the issue as I!

I appreciate all the help, will keep thinking about it, for now I'll just write every automation separetely, removing the CCs each time, than addressing everything in the end for the final playback.

[teniente powell]

Originally Posted by Cadu Byington

making it impossible to assign other parameters to other CCs.

Try the way DarkStar has explained in his last post, dragging the CC from the list onto the knob to automate.

I'll try at home opening the envelope and tell you what happens. But I usually play with Spitfire Mural, and have set up the vibrato with CC2, right clicking on vibrato knob and select Learn Midi CC. And I have an envelope with CC1 and CC2.

[EvilDragon]

Yes, Sandbox reserves some CCs internally for the modulators, you are NOT supposed to use those CCs for MIDI learning the controls on the GUI.

There's one more thing you could try. Simply disable MIDI output from Kontakt plugin altogether.

[Cadu Byington]

Originally Posted by teniente powell

Try the way DarkStar has explained in his last post, dragging the CC from the list onto the knob to automate.

I'll try at home opening the envelope and tell you what happens. But I usually play with Spitfire Mural, and have set up the vibrato with CC2, right clicking on vibrato knob and select Learn Midi CC. And I have an envelope with CC1 and CC2.

I tried different ways to address, DarkStar's included, same results...

[Cadu Byington]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Yes, Sandbox reserves some CCs internally for the modulators, you are NOT supposed to use those CCs for MIDI learning the controls on the GUI.

There's one more thing you could try. Simply disable MIDI output from Kontakt plugin altogether.

Still nothing...no matter what I do, just the fact to have the envelope active in Reaper, makes Spitfire turn into a controller itself that is "moving" non-stop (constant red light).

[DarkStar]

Maybe a silly question: what does Spitfire's Support advise?