You and Your Song Writing...

[kindafishy]

These questions were asked in a song writing forum that I visit from time to time and I thought it was awesome to see the different responses coming back from different forum members. Everyone had such unique answers and it was really awesome to read about the vastly different approaches taken.

So, of course, one of my first thoughts was that I would love to see how REAPER members would answer these questions because the crowd here is very different from the crowd there.

These questions are from a research project. I asked the poster for permission to re-post these here. I'll be sending him your responses to use in his project (or asking him to come here to see the results).

Here ya go, have fun with it...

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?
Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
What kind of things do you write about? Why?
What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
What comes first? The music or the words?
Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?
What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?


I'll go first in the next post...

[kindafishy]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?

I use the 'depend on my writing partner' method generally. I've written words to one song though. It was a song for my children.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)

No, not at all. All my songs develop from a single idea and grow outwardly as they see fit. The song writes itself, or it stays inside until it's ready.

Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?

As above, but to expand, I'll often just be enjoying playing some guitar or some bass and a good lick or riff presents itself. I'll record it on a little handheld recorder and listen to it at another time to see if I still like it. If I don't record it right away, more often than not, I forget it. I have forgotten so many cool ideas.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?

Just the one time. My blood.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?

Honestly? Every artist who has produced anything that has touched me in any way from musicians, to painters, to authors, to cinematographers, professional and amateur alike. As of the last 7 or 8 years, I find grass roots artists who spend time in places like this to be most influential.

...and of course, every musician who has ever blown my mind with their brand of high voltage rock.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?

Darkness. Melancholy. Wonder. Amazement. Introspection. Curiosity. As I don't write lyrics, these things are manifested as riffs, progressions, melodies, and so on...

Anything except love or romance or crap like that. I don't understand how anyone could ever want to bask in the sunlight of someone's feelings and I certainly don't want to share mine. I definitely don't want to hear about yours. That's just all way to 'touchy-feely' for me. No thanks. I care about more interesting topics and thought provoking themes.

Maybe I need some sensitivity training or something...

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?

It takes me about a year or so to write a song, normally. I never get writer's block though. That's just how I write (see above). I always have a few songs on the go though. I have a backlog of dozens upon dozens of songs that are in a state where they could be arranged and recorded.

What comes first? The music or the words?

Music. Always.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?

With a writing partner, with varying degrees of 'percentage' done by either/or. I used to write by myself, but it is 5000x more satisfying and interesting to work with someone. We both feel that 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)

Guitar (normally) or bass (infrequently). I try to write music that can stand on it's own without lyrics and vocals... then add lyrics and vocals to it. Even if the basic song structure is essentially done by the time I get a hold of it, the stated goal still remains largely the same for me.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?

Sort of not really sometimes. All depends on the song, the vibe, the mood. Some stuff writes itself effortlessly, other stuff takes lots of repetitive jamming for meaningful results. Either is fun and satisfying. If the process ever stops being a big part of the enjoyment for me, I will stop.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?

When it's something that I want to listen to, and I don't feel that it needs anything else, it's done. Put another way, the song knows when the song is ready.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?

Two primary ways, stated as a fan, not a writer. 1. It infects and stirs any type of emotion and connection. 2. If frames a moment in time which one can always return to upon hearing the music again, not unlike all the other senses can do. Ever smelled something cooking and immediately felt like you were in your Momma's kitchen again? Music does the same thing, but potentially on a much more intimate and powerful level.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?

Something compelling about music and how it moves and breathes. A sweet lick. A wicked riff. A powerful progression. An infectious rhythm. A brilliant hook. Complimentary textures. Unexpected yet intuitive changes. Lyrics don't matter much to me, unless they are stupid, then they will invariably ruin a song.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

Anything that gets under my skin from any genre or style influences me in some way. Rather than naming the genres I love, it is easier just to say that I can't really stomach commercial pop or pop rock generic done before drivel kind of stuff from any generation. That's not real or honest and I reject it without prejudice.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?

No, but not because I can't or couldn't. I simply don't want to make a living on my music. I do it because it is part of who I am. I made a conscious decision when I was younger and standing at the crossroads. I chose a different path. How I know that I would be in the show if it was something I had wanted is because I don't let anything stop me from attaining what I want, and nothing ever has (stopped me). I walked away on my terms and I have no regrets at all.

[Jae.Thomas]

I can't really comment on all of this, but I would say a lot of my lyrics start with:

1. I play a riff of progression over and over again
2. mumble something
3. something makes a bit of sense
4. something starts sounding good
5. record it
6. refine

lol.

[Bristol Posse]

OK, I'll play

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
see stuff, hear stuff, say stuff that sounds interesting cool or whatever, write it down it might be useful one day

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
No

Is there a certain process you go through? What is it?
Write, rehearse, record scratch, listen, refine, rehearse, play live, get feed back, refine, record again, listen, refine, play out live, get more feed back. Once I'm happy i'll start rehearsing for a real recording and writing the rest of the non solo arrangement

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
Friends, familly, life experience, love, rinse and repeat

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
Everything I have heard or read

What kind of things do you write about? Why?
Friends, family, life experience, love, rinse and repeat. I can only write what I know.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
I try and write a song every week, most of its crap. A line or two might be a keeper and make it into something worth working on

What comes first? The music or the words?
Depends. either or. I have one riff I've been playing with for three years that hasn't made it into s aong yet. I have some lyric phrases that I've had in my notebook for months that I like but can't find a use for yet

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
Myself

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
Guitar and vocals

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
Write, rehearse, record scratch listen, refine, rehearse, play live, get feed back, refine, record again, listen, refine, play out live, get more feed back. Once I'm happy i'll start rehearsing for a real recording and writing the rest of the non solo arrangement

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
Once I'm happy with it

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?
If they like it great, you can feel it when you play it. If I like and the audience doesn't, I still like it I'll just play it at shows less frequently. I can still remember what I was doing years ago when certain music plays so I guess it gets tied up with formative memories and becomes important

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
For My songs Do I like it, do I want to go through all the effort of bringing it to fruition.
For other peoples songs, do I like it, do I want to hear it again

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
Everything I've ever written ends up as sort of Brit Pop no matter what my original intention might have been

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?
Career? no although in the last year or so, between some paid gigs,a few song downloads, some fixing and mixing for a couple of bands and running sounds for a few events I did over $500 from music related stuff so it's a hobby that does provide some re-imbursement

[Panic]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
- Same method I use for writing melody and harmony: I write something and I re-write the crap out of it until it fits my inner music map.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
- I try to vary it, but whatever the song suggests, really.

Is there a certain process you go through? What is it?
- I write something and I re-write the crap out of it until it fits my inner music map.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
- Whatever sparks my interest.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
- Anyone who has ever written an engaging song.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?
- See the question on inspiration.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
- Get over myself.

What comes first? The music or the words?
- Usually music; sometimes words.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
- Aww by my wonesome...sniff, sniff

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
- All of the above...and then some.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
- Write something then re-write the crap out of it until it fits my inner music map.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
- When the song fits with my inner music map.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?
- Music is emotion.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
- don't know. I just follow my inner music map.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
- Nope.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music?
- I like to think I could be commercially successful with music, yes.

Or do you already have a career as a musician?
- Nope

[James HE]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?

I just let them come to me. I filter out trite, corny, lame ass lyrics as much as I can. thus I probably don't make much sense to most people.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)

I generally need more than 2 letters of the alphabet to describe my song structures.


Is there a certain process you go through? What is it?

It's pure attrition.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?

I try to let it find me. I get angry when it does not. Sometimes that's all it takes.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?

Leonard Cohen, Ani Difranco, Jeff Buckley, Tom Waits, Janes Addiction

What kind of things do you write about? Why?

There are only two subject matters to ever write about. Contented longing, and dis-contented longing.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?

I re work everything that I've ever written. This is counter productive.

What comes first? The music or the words?

This has changed for me. If I am fronting and or writing for a band, the music comes first. Just on my own, the words try to come first, although I have trouble completing things that way.


Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?

I write what I have to. When I am with my collaborators, I let them do as much heavy lifting as I can.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)

I would say rhythm guitar, but I have abandoned that. "What the world needs now is another folk singer like I need a hole in my head" I try very hard to not be another sensitive white male with an acoustic guitar. I fail miserably for the most part.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?

this is way too vague to answer. everything is process.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?

I dunno, I could be finishing a song right now, but I'm answering these questions instead.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?

"without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." -Frank Zappa

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?

"but there's one thing you can't lose - that feel" - Tom Waits

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

Abstractly I consider everything I do "pop" but this is just a frame which i put a bunch of random stuff in.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?

Yes.

[morgon]

I agree with JBM and Aste particularly, redrafting songs is time consuming, dont forget to practice the instrument, always, is my advice.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

I can't really comment on all of this, but I would say a lot of my lyrics start with:

1. I play a riff of progression over and over again
2. mumble something
3. something makes a bit of sense
4. something starts sounding good
5. record it
6. refine

lol.

That sounds familiar. But sometimes nothing makes sense or sounds good, and I'll roll with it to see what happens - kind of 50/50.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

That sounds familiar. But sometimes nothing makes sense or sounds good, and I'll roll with it to see what happens - kind of 50/50.

+1 it's always good to roll with it, imo.

record it, and maybe later on it will fit into something else.

(imo)

[morgon]

Of course we keep working something over until

a)it becomes something we're reasonable proud of

b)we finally give up on it

c)like JBM said, we pinch the good parts out just like a carwreck and carry on

[mdmiller]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
I don’t follow a particular method. I write lyrics to fit the song and concept.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure
I don’t use a particular form for songs. I try to find an arrangement that helps express the song’s concept.

Is there a certain process you go through? What is it?
The lyrics are usually the last stage when I write. They have to fit the style and feelings exhibited by the music. I write the lyrics after I’ve recorded all the instruments. On very rare occasions, I write the lyrics first.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
My inspirations come from life, current events, personal opinions, feelings, etc.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
Everyone I’m exposed to influences me one way or another.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?
As mentioned above, I write about life experiences, current events and anything that moves me. True songs reflect the writer.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
I hardly ever get writer’s block writing the music. Coming up with lyrics that aren’t lame is the difficult aspect of song writing for me. When I have trouble, I put the song aside and come back to it later. Sometimes I change the story of the song or just drop it all together.

What comes first? The music or the words?
Barring the rare exception, the music is always first.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
I write myself. The last time I collaborated was when I hit a writer’s block about fifteen years ago.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
I usually start with a melody but every song is different. Sometimes a song will grow from a chord progression or a short lick on the guitar or piano. Sometimes I start with a bass line or even a drum beat. I might create a cool sound on a synth and take it from there or begin with an odd time signature.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
Yes. I decide upon a style or primary instrument and let inspiration hit me. If I begin with a melody, I harmonize it. If I start with chords, I’ll fool around with them until I find a nice melody. Once the foundation is set, I score the music for all of the parts. I often make minor changes when recording.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
When the song feels right, makes sense, the arrangement flows naturally and the idea has been expressed, it’s ready to record. I don’t think songs are ever “finished”. Different artists can add their own touch to a song. I always complete an initial recording and mix before sharing.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it? What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
I think that each person is touched by music differently. Some are moved by a particular style, others by the beat, others by the lyrics. I think it depends on the individual, their mood, their musical knowledge and the type of music they were exposed to while growing up. It also depends on the venue of the performance and the audience’s expectations. A band playing sophisticated and complicated music in a dance club probably won’t reach a majority of the audience at all.

I think of a song as the musical expression of an idea that people can sing.

Musicality attracts me to a song. Formula driven pop and beats made on the computer without any concept of dynamics and a lack of the human factor do nothing for me.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
I like most styles to a point but prefer classical and rock. My songs are defiantly influenced by my favorite genres the most.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?
Yes, I’ve been teaching, performing and recording music for over thirty-five years. I admit having to supplement this income though. I’m a freelance and indie computer programmer on the side.

[msore]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?

No "method", rather a meditative literary approach combining personal experience with a large repertoire of poetic techniques. I do woprk with lyric to melody and melody to lyric directions. Every song has a very different approach.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)

No, rather when I find myself doing a particular form, I alter it.

Is there a certain process you go through? What is it?

Many different sequences, and lots of recycling through stages. But all the steps are drawn from a repertoire of long-learned principles of creative generation (both words and music) - like tension vs resolution, dissonance vs assonance, dramatic storytelling, showing not telling, theme and variation, etc...


Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?

Everywhere. Not difficult. From the kitchen to the gym, from my past to all the stuff I read. My wife, kids. History, social problems, philosophy.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?

Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Harold Arlen, the Gershwins, Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Robert Johnson, Willie Dixon, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen, Joe Ely, Willie Nelson, the Allman Brothers, Tom Waits and Jack Bruce.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?

Places I've been, lessons I learned. Why? Because I am not someone else.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?

Write more. I have not had it for thirty years.

What comes first? The music or the words?

Try both directions. They give interestingly different results.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?

Self.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)

With musical composition I start either with chord sequences, or melody with chords harmonized on later.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?

I feel it's valuable to WRITE the music out on paper in music notation.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?

Immediately after full "composition". Even if it is rough.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?

Don't really care. I do it for me.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?

Coherence (the start and end and middle all rely on each other). Singability (melodic clarity). Brief but strong statements. Not too much and not too little repetition.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

Jazz and blues. I am very indebted to having learned and studied so many great composers and writers.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?

No. Just art.

[Leo]

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=133181 - Try a song first so you get an idea about what I like. They're short, try one.

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
My lyrics are about stuff I'm interested in. My songs hardly ever have a chorus or anything that is repeated throughout the song so I just try to make every line sound intense, offensive, abrasive, a reference to something or just somehow make the listener wanna hear what I'm screaming about.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
If a song is over 2 minutes it's clearly overstayed its welcome and I'll cut something out. ABC? ABAC? ABCD? Something simple like that with some twists here and there.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
Movies, literature, games. My favorite genres are horror and psychological.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
Läjä Äijälä of the Finnish hardcore punk legends Terveet Kädet is an influence. His lyrics originally got me interested in kink. Rob Zombie's White Zombie era stuff is pretty cool.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?
There's always something interesting to say about sexual deviancy, suicide, existential ponderings, mental disorders and such. I have a very hard time writing or caring about "baby come back" or "ooh tonight we gonna party". Or about cars, money, girls or everyday shit like that.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
Read a book or watch a movie. Play some horror game. Silent Hill is great. Recently I enjoyed a movie called Excision immensely. Try the Mike Patton method, as in just say something that sounds cool...it doesn't need to relate to anything. People will come up with a meaning or connection to a great piece of lyric if something intrigues them.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
If a riff doesn't sound cool to me, change it until it does. If the lyrics don't sound cool to me, change them until they do. I like breaks with just drums and bass.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
Anything catchy. Obviously my definition of catchy differs quite a bit from a fan of Justin Bieber's or 50 Cents. If you want to hear a song again or can't lose it from your head, that's catchy. Great screams, intense riffs an band performances, inventive song structures, well-thought out production tricks etc are all very catchy to me. Movie and game soundtracks work great on me, they put me right back where I heard the piece. They're more powerful than just the music has any right to be.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?
No. I have a "real" career that gives my life regular hours, feeds my wife and kids, pays the mortgage and leaves me with cash to spend on the enthusiasm that has not been killed by actually being forced to do music when I don't want to. All this regular life bullshit also builds all sorts of pressure in me which I vent out through music. How cool is that.

[sammydix]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
spontaneity

Is there a particular form you use?
nothing consciously. whatever forms, forms.

Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics?
none

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
an alternate universe

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you?
anyone i can admire. can be the guy next door, or world renown

What kind of things do you write about? Why?
anything, because the possibilities are infinite

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
huh? open your eyes/mind.

What comes first? The music or the words?
music, always.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
both

Where do you start?
drums (if you mean when ready to mix).

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
no. too disorganized (on purpose in this context).

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
identical to msore: "Immediately after full "composition". Even if it is rough."

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience?
What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
the unexpected--to all above...or a more creative take on the expected.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
no. anything i consider good.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music?
yes.

[Normie]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?

Since I am/was a writer by trade, I use the basics of the 5Ws ...Who What When Where and Why. Of course, this only really works well if you subscribe to the 'every song is a story' philosophy, or you spread it across a concept type piece/album.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)

Nope. Whatever fits what I'm trying to get across.

Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?

Determine the concept/mood/feeling I want to convey based on my personal take of the given situation...develop a basic melody for the chorus...build the idea piece by piece going back and forth. Basically 'sculpting the tee lyric to the music so they are part of each other.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
What kind of things do you write about? Why?

Things that cannot, should not, have not been/be. But might have been. What if scenarios. I like the possible but not probable kinds of things that lend themselves to exploration and 'storyline' styles of writing.


Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?

Musicians? Not really. I'd say because of the above, lyrical influences come from books and stories.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?

Many Get "The Observation Deck" (google for info/details). Remove yourself COMPLETELY from what you are doing and do something TOTALLY different. If you are playing a guitar, go dig a ditch. If you are writing a lyric, go rebuild a 302 small block Ford. The important thing is to rip your mind away from the environment you are in and put it into another space entirely.

What comes first? The music or the words?

Concept first and foremost. Then the lyrics and music are developed together. I cannot write a tune and put lyrics over it, nor can I write words and set them to music. The two things are the same thing in my head. Strange perhaps, but that's how I enjoy doing it. Which for me is the whole point to begin with.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?

Alone.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)

See above.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?

See above

When is a song considered finished?

When it feels like I 'went somewhere' and enjoyed the trip.

When is a song ready to be shared?

I do it to make me happy. Not really interested in putting it out.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?

All depends on what it says to the people listening. Verbally/lyrically or emotionally.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?

Having a point. Even if that point isn't easily definable by everyone.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

Well, primarily I'm a metalhead, but I don't 'do' that. It is an influence per se as after a few decades of it, how could it not be? But what comes out of me is a mesh of what has gone in. And that's pretty much everything. Ad above, it all depends what I want to do and what best suits the story I'd like to tell. Strange considering I hhave an audience of me and the dog. But she seems cool with it.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?

Had a fairly good career as a writer (published/professional). I do music for therapy. That's it. If I someday put it out, people can like it or ignore it. I have no interest in it as a career.

--

Why do I feel like I just went to confession?

[The Buddha Rats]

Great post!

Q: What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
A: I'll take bits of people's conversations, pieces of other songs, opinions I've got about this or that and then collage them together.

Q: Is there a particular form you use?
A: I don't like things to get overly complicated, or end up with songs that are over the 3 minute mark (usually). Any structure that works is a good one if it serves the song.

Q: Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?
A: I always start with a guitar or piano part and then start fishing for a melody. The scratch lyrics are mostly nonsense to get the phrasing right, but sometimes it all comes out in a final form.

Q: Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
A: All over the place. Friends, artwork, movies, ex's.

Q: Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
A: I've been exposed to so many different types of music that there are too many to list.

Q: What kind of things do you write about? Why?
A: People, places, things.

Q: What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
A: Here's a realistic tip- one that helps me- RELAX. Don't worry. It will all work out in time. Go watch a movie. Drink a beer. Play a video game, or go for a walk.

Q: What comes first? The music or the words?
A: Usually the music, then the lyrics.

Q: Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaborators?
A: I write and play it all myself except the guitar solos.

Q: Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
A: I start with Piano or guitar, then add vocals, then drums, then bass.

Q: Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
A: I try and record the tracks live all the way through, without punching in/out. No auto tune unless something is just so fubar'd on an otherwise perfect take.

Q: When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
A: Hard to say. Some songs speak to me quickly, some songs are never done. Some songs just end up sounding like sh*t.

Q: In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?
A: I don't really think about that. I write and record for my own pleasure.

Q: Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
A: I like acoustic, old rock and roll, classical, jazz. I generally write music that doesn't have any synthesizers. Some bands get synths to fit right and sound organic, but most don't. I can't, that's for sure!

Q: Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music?
A: I've got a job. My rent gets paid, and my family has food on the table, thank God. And based on everything I've experienced early on and know about the industry through musician friends and interviews with people who've "made it", I really hope not.

[kindafishy]

All the responses here are a pure joy to read through.

[Normie]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

All the responses here are a pure joy to read through.

It's probably better than hearing the stuff we are actually talking about

I just wanted to add the following to my post above'''

---
Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

Well, primarily I'm a metalhead, but I don't 'do' that. It is an influence per se as after a few decades of it, how could it not be? But what comes out of me is a mesh of what has gone in. And that's pretty much everything. Ad above, it all depends what I want to do and what best suits the story I'd like to tell. Strange considering I hhave an audience of me and the dog. But she seems cool with it."
---

To add, One of the things I have found is that I just 'can't write to genre. When I dream up something I want 'metal' sounding, it doesn't have guitars and a screaming dude. It comes out 'Synth Opera with Eurodance overtones". But it ends up containing the core elements of what I had pictured in my minds ear...so to speak.

So I just don't try. Whatever it becomes is what it becomes. Which is completely nonconductive to commercial success. Which is fine by me. Not sure if that adds to my post or is just a rant, but take it for what it's worth.

[karbomusic]

To add, One of the things I have found is that I just 'can't write to genre....

...So I just don't try. Whatever it becomes is what it becomes.

LOL. My current project (if I ever get it finished) is just that. It is a culmination of all the ideas I had previously thrown away because they didn't fit some predefined mold I had created or sounded too predictable or too simple or too catchy or too popish or whatever excuse I found to cover the possible embarrassment of being too something.

I recently came to the realization that maybe I was throwing away the real me and if I explored that instead of trying to sound like insert_expectation_here I might enjoy the result. We'll see!

[beingmf]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
Humming a melody, until some syllables start to emerge – go on from there.
Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
No. I love writing "bridges/middle-eights", but that doesn't mean I'll force them into every single song.
Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?
The sound of the words 80% - the lyrical content 20% - message 0%.
Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
I don't know.
Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
I don't know, either. Regarding lyrics, interestingly not the artists I regularly listen to. Well, maybe Stevie Wonder, in a more or less abstract way.
What kind of things do you write about? Why?
I try to avoid "du jour" topics, anything else is allowed as long as the words sound good. Ah yes, if the whole thing suddenly becomes too cynical, I'll start over with something else.
What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
Accept it – then start with any BS that you come up with. Absolutely try to avoid staring at a blank page. (Self-caused) pressure (deadlines) is good, too.*
What comes first? The music or the words?
Music.
Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
I write alone, but I incorporate spontaneous ideas from the artist or band members.
Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
Just one basic idea, e.g. (half) a progression for the verse, then I will, by all means, continue with the melody. The song has to develop its own life. Writing-by-chords is not allowed here .
Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
I don't understand that question. Do you mean "coffee"?* EDIT "Kill your darlings" (it is written on my forehead)
When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?
When it feels good playing it.
In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?
IMO you should know which audience you are writing for. Is it the label, record nerds, men, women, teenagers etc? Even if I don't try to create "sing-along" tunes, rather the contrary, there's been many occasions where the audience knew every single line of my songs. Pretty scary
What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
The atmosphere. It's got to be "magic" somehow.
Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?
No, I can adapt pretty quickly to the different genres I like. Being able to write a classic pop tune is of no help when you want to compose a dancefloor track. Rather vice versa, but generally spoken, each genre has their own rules and do's-and-don'ts. Accept those rules and stretch the boundaries as far as possible – but don't break them!
Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?
I don't see myself as a "musician". I am a producer and writer, and I join the bands of "my" artists from time to time.

* "Taking a shower" might be the universal positive answer to any problem that arises during the songwriting process, honestly.

Of course, during the arrangement and instrumentation/rehearsal stage a lot might change again. But this is not the topic of this thread.

[Normie]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I recently came to the realization that maybe I was throwing away the real me and if I explored that instead of trying to sound like insert_expectation_here I might enjoy the result. We'll see!

The further I go, the less I care about what anyone thinks musically. I love to read and learn everything I can on a given subject. Even things tangeal I'll scarf down in the hopes that if I ever need it, It'll be floating around my head somewhere.

In that process I (and I'm sure we all) come across the same (don't do that it's cliche/old/used to death ad nausem. And then I think, A guitar, acoustic/distorted isn't those things. Nor a piano. But we have heard them forever. It's all in how they are uses/presented/context and they never get old.

Sure, a Hoover for an entire album would get old quick. But a hit here or there? Apache? Fantasia/Universe? A 1 4 5 progression? It's ALL cliched to somebody. I dunno. Most people bitching the most about cliched stuff (not saying you, I mean from my reading) seem to use plenty of cliches of their own. Point being...

Screw it! If it sounds cool and you WANTED X, then why not? Hell, if it's what you envision and haZ a happy with it, why not? Then again. I'm not looking to get played outside either. But There is just as much non cliched stuff that sounds like crap as their is cliched stuff. I gotta go all hippie here...If it feels good do it

(Cliche being used as a coverall word)

[msore]

I am aware, however, that music I sometimes make [if I stand back and think with perspective] is on the flawed or cliche'd side. And not as good as music I made that successfully avoided cliche' and flaw.

Some of the cliche's I fall into are mine, some belong to a genre. Some are just habits. Some come out of a deep pool of collected musical experience that includes all kinds of shit from Jelly Roll Morton to Adele.

With some songs a bit of cliche' might be a smart balance to some other aspects of the song that are too wacky for an audience to take. Like a little sugar to make the harsh creative wacky medicine go down.

Knowing what is and what is not a cliche' is a valuable viewpoint for a songwriter.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by Normie

The further I go, the less I care about what anyone thinks musically. - - - Hell, if it's what you envision and haZ a happy with it, why not?

I hope I understand you correctly.
Let me tell you why not: because music is, like any art form, a means of communication (it has a sender and a receiver), and if you decide to obstruct that communication (with your listeners) from the very beginning, then it's, well, what? If you accept that premise, then you couldn't even call it "art" or "music".

To paraphrase Pierre Bourdieu, if you really decide to ignore anyone, then you are not willing to accept the fact that codes are ubiquitous in any society. Before I even knew Bourdieu or anything like that, I had that feeling that I need to give the listener a "reference" of any kind, a more or less complex hint where I come from. Simply because I want to communicate. Playing music just for the sake of it, at least for me, is kinda pointless.

So clichés and common progressions are necessary, but can be liberating as well, if used cleverly. As you pointed out correctly, a guitar or a piano can't be a cliché per se – simply because there's more than "the song" that makes the "music".

[and if I didn't understand you correctly, now everybody knows how I roll ]

EDIT: OMG, the first time I wholeheartedly agree with msore

Originally Posted by msore

Knowing what is and what is not a cliche' is a valuable viewpoint for a songwriter.

[msore]

Originally Posted by beingmf

To paraphrase Pierre Bourdieu, if you really decide to ignore anyone, then you are not willing to accept the fact that codes are ubiquitous in any society. Before I even knew Bourdieu or anything like that, I had that feeling that I need to give the listener a "reference" of any kind, a more or less complex hint where I come from. Simply because I want to communicate.

EDIT: OMG, the first time I wholeheartedly agree with msore

Hey. It ain't so bad. Everyone will, eventually! [haha]

If you get what Pierre teaches, note that there are - in the neo-colonial world he studied especially - MANY codes, many groups with their own codes. So a vibrant, adaptive approach to a world where there are so many disparate ways of communicating is to always be aware that folks other than you are using codes and meanings OTHER THAN the ones you are used to.

That applies to music too, eh?

If I am a blues guy, how do I communicate with the jazz folks and the rockers, and those with special knowledge of the musics of little groups around the world?

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by beingmf

<snip>because music is, like any art form, a means of communication (it has a sender and a receiver), and if you decide to obstruct that communication (with your listeners) from the very beginning, then it's, well, what? If you accept that premise, then you couldn't even call it "art" or "music".<snip>

Makes perfect sense if one subscribes to that premise. I believe that some (many perhaps?) don't define art as a means of communication, rather they define art as a means of expression. With the latter as the underpinning of the definition of art, then it is quite reasonable not to write for (or care about the opinion of) anyone but yourself.

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by Leo

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=133181 - Try a song first so you get an idea about what I like. They're short, try one.

<snip>

A.W.E.S.O.M.E!

I went to check it out, and listened to everything... a couple times.

I love your music, man. This is expressive, aggressive, unconstrained, creative, interesting, intelligent, heavy, moving, breathing stuff.

I laughed out loud at the bass lead in Neekeri because it just blew my mind. That is the kind of moment that I always long to have when listening to something new.

Man, I'm really glad you posted a link. Your answers to these questions give great insight and match up with your music perfectly.

[duffman]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?
Sometimes there is a story I want to tell, others there are feelings I am trying to evoke.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)
Nope. It's however I feel the song flows.

Is there a certain process you go through when writing lyrics? What is it?
For the first or scratch writting no. I just sit down and let them flow. Later I will refine them, hopefully, to better get my meaning across and better fit the song rhythm.

Where do you find inspiration for writing lyrics?
Everywhere. There have even been times I have awoken from a dead sleep, jumped out of bed, found a pad and pencil to write down lyrics.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?
Any and everyone


What kind of things do you write about? Why?
What every tickles my fancy. Telling my wife I'm sorry, being a stalker, being in Dallas and having a transvestite try to pick me up, what its like to get older, things I wish I would have done, things I wish I hadn't, about the whole in my pocket, the day I realised I had let me ego get the best of me.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?
I stop trying to actually write, and usually spend time exploring and instrument.

What comes first? The music or the words?
Both, either, or.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?
Most often myself. However I know and have worked with a couple of very good collaboraters. They have provided lyrics and instrumentation, as well as inspiration.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?)
Usually with guitar, piano, or organ. Messing with a lick that turns into a pattern then followed by a melody, build from there.

Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?
Yes, see answer above.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared
I dont know that they are ever finished. I share them when my limited abilities take them as far as I can.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it? What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?
Can have the power to move the listener to tear, joy, rage. Can bring forth emotions. I am big into the instrumentation first. The sound of the band or performer as a whole. Lyrics become, at times, secondary.


Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?[
Listen to and like something in almost ever style you can think of. Influence me, no, but given me an opportunity to have a vast listening experience from which to draw.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?
Earned my daily bread many moons ago, playing music, fulltime. Now in my mid-fifties I write and preform because I can, not because I have to. I am not all that interested any more in playing out or becoming famous as an entertainer, but would to experience a modicum of success as a writter....

Duff

[pattste]

What methods do you use for writing lyrics?

I don't write lyrics. I have tried, but it always sounded fake or just lame. My first CD was instrumental. For the second one, I am trying to collaborate with lyricists and singers.

Is there a particular form you use? (eg. ABAB/AABA) (ABAB being a
Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus structure)

I have songs in all the common forms of American popular music, I believe.

Are there any people/writers who have influenced you? Who are they?

Probably the biggest influence in terms of what I listen to and how her music touches me would be Natalie Merchant.

What kind of things do you write about? Why?

My compositions tend to be inspired by the people, places and values of americana.

What do you do about writer’s block? Tips?

I write music when it comes to me. I don't force myself to write. After I released my first CD, I didn't write another song for about 8 months and I was ok with that.

What comes first? The music or the words?

For my current project, I write the music and try to find lyrics that are a good match, both in terms of how they fit the song and what they are about.

Do you write the music yourself or with a band/other collaboraters?

I write the music by myself, lyrics are from collaborators and all instruments are played by real people. There are no MIDI tracks or pre-recorded loops.

Where do you start? (With The Beat (Drums)/The Rhythm (Guitar)/The Melody (Guitar)/The Voice (Vocals)?) Are there any processes you go through with the writing of the music?

I write a chord progression on acoustic guitar and usually come up with the melody on electric guitar.

When is a song considered finished? When is a song ready to be shared?

A song is finished when I have come up with something that works. The recording and mixing of the song however, can be a lenghthy process. I have a hard time coming up with a mix that I'm satisfied with in the long run. I still like all the songs from my first CD but I would remix them all if I had the chance.

In what ways do you think music communicates with an audience? How powerful is it?

Music is powerful. It has a profound effect on people, both on those who make it and those who listen to it.

What makes a song? What attracts you to a song?

This is difficult for me to answer. I would say that in addition to esthetic qualities, it has to be real.

Do you have a preferred style or genre of music? What is it? Do you think this has an influence on your writing?

I listen to a lot of different musical styles, although not all are reflected in my compositions. In fact, when I started writing music, I was surprised that what I was coming up with didn't necessarily sound like what I was listening to. One reviewer found similarities with Lee Ritenour's music.

Do you see a career for yourself in song writing/playing music? Or do you already have a career as a musician?

I made a conscious choice at 17 or 18 years of age that a career in music wasn't me. I have a successful and rewarding career in health informatics, I have a beautiful family and live comfortably. Life is full of compromises. I would like to have more time for my music. On the other hand, most professional musicians have to compromise in other ways, whether it is getting a teaching gig, playing cheezy music in restaurants, playing weddings or in a cover band. I play the music that I like and want to play. If I'm the only one to enjoy it, so be it.

[Normie]

Originally Posted by beingmf

I hope I understand you correctly.

You do understand me correctly. Here's where I think we differ.

When Michelango or any artistic great set out to create his art, he did so to express his vision of beauty. Many hated it. Many loved it.

When The production team behind New Kids on the Block set out to create a substantial income, they did so. Many loved it. Many hated it.

The one thing they both set out to do was create their definition of beauty and art. One for one reason, one for another. Neither thought to speak to everyone on the planet. Mike didn't have the satanists of the day lining up at the chapel to view his work and NKOTB didn't cater to fans of Iron Maiden or Led Zepplin.

Now I don't compare or call anything I do a masterwork, but the point is the same. If an artist bases his work on chasing the approval of everyone, he is setting himself up for disappointment. If he follows his vision, people are free to love, loathe or be indifferent.

But the nanosecond he adapts his vision to chase interests outside his vision, his art becomes a commercial item no different than wallpaper or a toaster oven. And if that's what he wants to do, that is 100% A OK too.

But it's still art.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by msore

Hey. It ain't so bad. Everyone will, eventually! [haha]

If you get what Pierre teaches, note that there are - in the neo-colonial world he studied especially - MANY codes, many groups with their own codes. So a vibrant, adaptive approach to a world where there are so many disparate ways of communicating is to always be aware that folks other than you are using codes and meanings OTHER THAN the ones you are used to.

That applies to music too, eh?

Oh – one more time I agree How couldn't I? Let's boil it down to "I want to communicate with people that understand my codes". Every f***ing kick drum sound implies a code, so does the snare, the hihat, and the bass (guitar) sound etc..* You can't escape it. And in this culturally fragmented world, it's a chance to actually reach those people. I was lucky enough to be exposed to huge record piles of all kinds of music and spin those as a DJ (primarily jazz, soul and techno-ish stuff) and I could see people immediately respond/react to the tunes I dropped. Invaluable.
Contrarily to 20 or 30 years ago, when you were lucky if you found music that was "close to the music you heard in your head". A blessing and a curse: my main output of music originates in the lack of existant music "the way it should be in my opinion". Now, the more macro-genres exist, the bigger the chances are that "your music" already exists.

* the great thing about it is that all those encoded sounds actually serve a very musical purpose. Those sub-genres wouldn't be musically possible without those very specific sounds. So trying to understand WHY the snare absolutely HAS to sound like that, makes you understand a lot about music in general.

If I am a blues guy, how do I communicate with the jazz folks and the rockers, and those with special knowledge of the musics of little groups around the world?

a) you know yourself that "the jazz folks" do not exist, nor do "the rockers", b) do you really (I mean REALLY) want to reach those people? If so, you feel attracted to their cultural codes anyway, and you'll know instinctively what to do, c) it's not possible to intellectually build a genre without "feeling it" – at least not in popular music, but I guess the same applies to avant-garde or traditional music as well.

[msundh]

To be a songwriter you have to be a musician and a writer. To be a good musician you have to practise. Talent won't hurt. Same goes for lyrics.
If you like me, lack talent for lyrics, I guess it's just studying other lyrics how they are built up. Write down every nice phrase that comes up in your head and then 'build' the lyrics.
The main thing is that the lyric follows the song.
I heard Peter Gabriel say: You will remember a good song with bad lyrics, but not a bad song with good lyrics, but good lyrics will enhance the song.
But for me making lyrics is a pain in the ***.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by Normie

Now I don't compare or call anything I do a masterwork, but the point is the same. If an artist bases his work on chasing the approval of everyone, he is setting himself up for disappointment. If he follows his vision, people are free to love, loathe or be indifferent.

But the nanosecond he adapts his vision to chase interests outside his vision, his art becomes a commercial item no different than wallpaper or a toaster oven. And if that's what he wants to do, that is 100% A OK too.

But it's still art.

Now you didn't understand me correctly I agree completely. When some artist asks me to produce him/her, and their reply to my question "who is it you want to address" is "everyone", then I have to refuse, because this is simply naive and immature. So is the reply "only myself".

Regarding "commercial items vs. art" – hefty disagreement! Art is – in an interesting way – always commercial (I know that msore will contradict this ). IF you accept the premise of "communication".

Let's take your example of Michelangelo and NKOTB. The producers of NKOTB apparently did choose the right codes for reaching "as many people as possible". I don't know the reasons, "beauty" (the cast of the band) surely might have played a role, but certainly their audience liked the sheer "energy" of the music, compressed tight urban beats (think "code") all over the place, it obviously wasn't an accidental product.
Now Michelangelo. Do you think anybody without a pronounced urge to communicate would have painted the Sistine Chapel??? And furthermore, do you think "Mike" would have done that without being paid for food, rent, his paint etc.? Except he had enough money from elsewhere?

Being an artist also means to choose a profession (in German there's a nice word pair "Beruf" (profession) and "Berufung" (mission). Doesn't work as good in english...). Just like every plumber, an artist needs (and decided) to earn money by making art. Any other definition is romantic nonsense

[Normie]

Originally Posted by beingmf

Now you didn't understand me correctly

We seem to agree yet disagree. Let me go off of your plumber comment.

In another life I was involved with off-road racing/motorsports. The fabrication of chro-moly tube steel chassis for the race trucks were tig welded. The shape of the weld and the heat generated by the process creates a localized discoloration in the metal. A rainbow gradient.

When done right, the completed bare metal chassis is just gorgeous to people of a mechanical inclination. So much so that these chassis began being displayed at motorsports events, not solely as an instructional 'aid' but the sheer beauty if the weld/discoloration. Gearheads gravitated to these $100,000 'artworks' and their girlfriends and non mechanical types saw only an erector set of metal.

To some it was the highest form of art. And it was specifically created to be just that. Display pieces meant to impress with a very specific type of beauty and targeted not to the greater public, but a specific audience.

The person building them cared for exactly one thing. That the end product matched his vision. Some liked it, some were indifferent. But it accomplished what he set out to do.

When it comes to genres, cliches and such, I remember something Devin Townsend said. It basically came down to this. No mattter what you like.do, no matter how strange or nerdy, someone else out there probably likes that very thing. If you like it and they like it, who cares if anyone else does? You just communicated with that person.

I just see music the same way. And if a person is fine with doing it romantically for themseves, what difference could it possibly make on anything? We look at the Grand Canyon and see artistic beauty. But unless one is religious and believes in God (Gods), who made that art to communicate to who?
that's where I think the communication aspect falls apart entirely.

BTW, I love these intellectual/philosophical challenges

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by Normie

BTW, I love these intellectual/philosophical challenges

Me, too, too bad for this thread

I had a feeling that something like your above comment would come along – simply because the term "art" or "a work of art" is totally misused these days. A chassis (which serves the purpose of being a basic part of a vehicle) cannot be a work of art, because it wasn't made for that purpose. Art (and among the arts music being the most abstract form) IS mere "art", per definitionem. A consumer item or a technical part disguised as art is called "kitsch", per definitionem.

A debatable case would be e.g. a photography of the chassis, which has to meet several conditions before it might be called "a work of art" (I for myself decided that I don't accept photography as an art form – an opinion that several professional photographers agreed to. Many people do accept it, though).

To quote Bourdieu once more, the perception and evaluation of art is based on education, your family background and the social class you live in. The higher the class or the educational level, the more "indifferently", sans personal interest or preference, is the view onto a work of art. The term "beauty" occurs less and less in statements about "valid works of art", the higher the academic degree.
While the rainbow chassis might be "astounding" or "beautiful", it will always stay a chassis Same is the Grand Canyon (unless you assume "god" as an artistic creator of nature phenomena being looked at by humans as "aesthetically unique and obviously not coincidental").

Originally Posted by Normie

I remember something Devin Townsend said. It basically came down to this. No matter what you like.do, no matter how strange or nerdy, someone else out there probably likes that very thing.

As sad as this might be (most likely just provocative coquetry) – in this assumption I don't see the active role of the artist pursuing communication. Hoping that somebody might like your "output" (or not even that) distincts the amateur from the artist. IF you agree with the concept of art being a means of communication...

Originally Posted by Normie

I just see music the same way.

Given the nature of music – you may be able to close your eyes and turn away from a picture, but you can't "turn your ears away" – it's ALWAYS a projection towards a receiver, a "minnesong" if you like. Unless you just write musical scores, and never play them.

[Normie]

Yea but they can all enjoy our art

Chassis:
Here's the thing. They were not. The things I'm talking about began as functional, but the displays were built to be 'art' They were never intended to, nor were they used. The originals were, but the finals were always done to 'perfection' first and foremost to be seen/viewed. They existed for no other reason. They were made to 'be' art in the same way a George Barris built show cars. Built his way with his vision and people were free to like or not.

I do not discount that there is communication. That would be clearly wrong. But it is not the be all/end all of the Mona Lisa, a song or any other 'art'.

As for the actual definition of 'Art"...well, that goes way into hippie/hipster territory We likely all would agree that The ceiling of Sistine Chapel is Art. But as above two people can't agree that my chassis example is. The guy that made them thinks they are. As for many in that community. Outside? Indifference. Yet it was viewed for what it was intended to be and appreciated. And it was ignored. Neither interpretation is 'wrong' and that seems to be where you and I are at. The core issue seems to be that definition and there really can't be one.

There are hipsters calling pics of a filled garbage can 'art' To me it's a garbage can. It communicates exactly nothing outside that a can exists filled with garbage. The Hipster says it symbolizes and communicates to him man's desire to destroy nature through excessive consumption.

No difinitive 'truth' to either. All individual perception.

To get back to music, when A G-rapper raps about bustin' capZ in a cop, he isn't saying anything to me. I don't live in that world or buy into it. When a country guy writes a lyric about momma getting drunk and hit by a train, it says nothing to the rapper. No communication takes place. Unless you qualify "God this sucks" as communication. Because that's about the only thing either gets out of it. (hypothetical example that could involve any two types of music)

As for DT, he was quite serious. His whole career was based on exactly that. And he has had moderate success. Strapping Young lad is the opposite of 'The Hummer" which is light years from "KI", which is nothing like Deconstruction. Or Ocean Machine. Or Terra, Or Physicist.

He goes and makes what is in his vision and that vision drives fans nuts because he never does the genre thing from release to release. He goes where his vision takes him. Sure he is an entertainer and wants to make his fans happy. But in interview after interview he reinforces the same fact. He does what he wants to do and invites people to come along for the ride. His latest, Epicloud is a prime example. He said he made it because he had to get it out of his head. The songs/progressions/sounds were interfering with what he was trying to do musically at the time. So he pursued them, got it out of his system, made the record and is moving on to his 'other' idea.

He even said the album would likely lose him fans. It didn't, but he did it anyway. PR hype? Doubtful. If you follow his career it is a path from one idea to another that would not be consistent with a guy concerned about anything but realizing his ideas.

OK, your turn

[msore]

Originally Posted by Normie

But the nanosecond he adapts his vision to chase interests outside his vision, his art becomes a commercial item no different than wallpaper or a toaster oven. And if that's what he wants to do, that is 100% A OK too.

No.

If an artist adapts his vision to include something beyond his (or her) vision, why not call that an expanding vision?

That is NOT the same as wallpaper or a toaster.

[James HE]

Originally Posted by msore

I am aware, however, that music I sometimes make [if I stand back and think with perspective] is on the flawed or cliche'd side. And not as good as music I made that successfully avoided cliche' and flaw.

Some of the cliche's I fall into are mine, some belong to a genre. Some are just habits. Some come out of a deep pool of collected musical experience that includes all kinds of shit from Jelly Roll Morton to Adele.

With some songs a bit of cliche' might be a smart balance to some other aspects of the song that are too wacky for an audience to take. Like a little sugar to make the harsh creative wacky medicine go down.

Knowing what is and what is not a cliche' is a valuable viewpoint for a songwriter.

one man's cliche is another man's avant garde.

[James HE]

Originally Posted by msore

No.

If an artist adapts his vision to include something beyond his (or her) vision, why not call that an expanding vision?

That is NOT the same as wallpaper or a toaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normie

But the nanosecond he adapts his vision to chase interests outside his vision, his art becomes a commercial item no different than wallpaper or a toaster oven. And if that's what he wants to do, that is 100% A OK too.
No.


Campbell's soup and marilyn monroe.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by James HE

Campbell's soup and marilyn monroe.

No. Not because of the "icon" Campbell's soup and the icon Marilyn Monroe. Because of Mr. Warhol who was the first one (yes I know, not really) to expand our definition of art by using everday images. Imagine somebody else doing the same today. Yawn.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by Normie

To get back to music, when A G-rapper raps about bustin' capZ in a cop, he isn't saying anything to me. I don't live in that world or buy into it. When a country guy writes a lyric about momma getting drunk and hit by a train, it says nothing to the rapper.

Well, actually it would work if the G-rapper or the country guy would take the effort to find "legit" (in Bourdieu's terminology) words to express their world. If they really and deeply WANTED to communicate with us, they would come up with unheard lyrics, setting their life in a context that is emotionally perceptible for "anybody" (yes I know ). That's what I'd call "good": somebody actually takes the effort, struggles with words until their meaning is perfect. Then he communicates on a lyrical ("artistic") level more than with regards to contents or mere descriptions.

There is actually a German rap artist who does exactly that. His parents are russian, and he obviously grew up in a russian community with street gangs and all that G-stuff we don't know about. The fantastic "trick" with his lyrics is that at first glance they seem to be the same s**t as usual. If you take the time to listen closely, you'll find something that I'd almost call a new language. Cut-up, truncated sentences, interspersed with German-russian idioms and wild neologisms – totally rough but absolutely "legit". Funny, brutal and enlightening.