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Old 06-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
I can't tell the difference anymore
Here's how I tell the difference and it only happens when a note fades out(a chord actually).
Hit a chord, listen to the distortion. There will be almost like a secondary distortion that just sort of sits there independant of all other distortion.
Real amps don't do that..

There was a thread somewhere here where a guy posted that artifact and asked why all amp sims do that. It may even be this thread, I didn't check. If I comes across it, I'll post a link here...Every amp sim I have ever tried does that, ours too. We have tried to remove it, but all we have done is minimize it, it is still there, but its difficult to understand what causes it.
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Old 06-07-2012, 01:21 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by JohnnyMcFly View Post
Here's how I tell the difference and it only happens when a note fades out(a chord actually).
Hit a chord, listen to the distortion. There will be almost like a secondary distortion that just sort of sits there independant of all other distortion.
Real amps don't do that..

There was a thread somewhere here where a guy posted that artifact and asked why all amp sims do that. It may even be this thread, I didn't check. If I comes across it, I'll post a link here...Every amp sim I have ever tried does that, ours too. We have tried to remove it, but all we have done is minimize it, it is still there, but its difficult to understand what causes it.
Those are the kind of minutia that arent worth worrying about I reckon.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:50 PM   #83
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They sound quite different. But only on trained ears... 80% of people (including most musicians) can't get the difference, so it's really not a problem anymore. But yeah, after doing some A/B tests, playing hours on both, you can easily get all the different nuances...
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:17 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Cosmic View Post
Those are the kind of minutia that arent worth worrying about I reckon.
Yeah you're probably right, but for someone like me its a question that drives me nuts and I have to figure out. It's little bits of knowledge like this that can also open new areas and answer other questions. CI man..
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:23 PM   #85
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Well..from your point of view..yeah I can see why you'd like to understand as much as possible.And proper order.

Its an amazing world we live in..made even more so by people figuring out how to make my computer sound like any amplifier in the world.

The mind boggles.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:39 PM   #86
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Well..from your point of view..yeah I can see why you'd like to understand as much as possible.And proper order.

Its an amazing world we live in..made even more so by people figuring out how to make my computer sound like any amplifier in the world.

The mind boggles.
Yeah, our goal is not actually to match sound for sound, but to create original amps. Even more than that though its to leverage the power and flexibility in utility that digital brings.
Say for example, you have a lead solo coming up, you like the head as is, but you want to swap out a tube (curve) just for the solo because it gives you a little more sumthin sumthin.. There is no reason in this day that you should not be able to do that with a foot controller.

Say for example you always liked a tube screamer sound, but you want a little more bottoms on it, making it a little more flabby. You should be able to do that too..

Anyways, thats our goals, because at our core belief, we don't believe you can truly 100% model a tube amp in real time. We just don't have those kinds of systems in place right now, perhaps one day, but right now no. You can still get great sound from digital amps, so we thought we'd work in areas that no one else is. While everyone else competing on who has the best "Plexi", we'll be trying to expand expectations of what their "modeler" can do..
Have you tried head case? there is a beta going on here for version 1.53, I encourage you to try it. You'll see what I mean. Try running the builder..

edit:
Here's the beta thread..
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ght=acmebargig
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:53 AM   #87
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Ok!I'm about to start work on tune right this minute..I'll give it a bash sure..who knows where it'll lead!
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:58 AM   #88
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Great I look forward to hearing your thoughts...
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:01 AM   #89
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Great I look forward to hearing your thoughts...

Well I just spent a half hour with it and failed to make it work I'm afraid.I followed the instructions,but when I had loaded an impulse,it didnt show up in the plug in..and then it just kinda froze on the loading icon..I'm on win 7 x64...I'm sure I'm doing something wrong..the effects pedals etc were working..hmmmmm.I'll try again when I'm not trying to track..just need to sus it out properly I guess.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:00 PM   #90
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Yeah its a bit of hoop jumping until I get a proper install complete..
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:16 PM   #91
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Ahh right..hm..I'll defo give it another bash..I was liking the look of it
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:31 PM   #92
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Kinda OT but I didn’t wanna start a new thread:

Anyone know of a good (preferably free) amp sim to replicate a Fender Twin Reverb? I currently have GuitarRig and I’m on a Mac.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:15 PM   #93
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The Simulanalog one is pretty accurate, I think.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:13 PM   #94
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I am not going to say it's perfect but I played on real amps most my life I am 43 and have been playing on and off for 30 yrs. I now only use simulation and own Amplitube 3 GR4 and JAMvox and all the free ones. The reason it sounds good and I have far less to plug in for real like pedals and racks. And the differences anymore is very little one big one I can hear is palm muting. And I use a half stack still anyways I use effects loop and alot never know that way.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:41 AM   #95
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Just adding my 2 cents here.
For now, I think that real amps do sound better than plugins BUT, micing correctly an amp in a good sounding room is so difficult and can be such a challenge...
I do prefer the sound of my stack (Soldano SP-77, Peavey classic 50/50, 4*12 marshall speaker) but moving, recording it is so difficult that many plugins are usually a better option. Plus, such a setup sounds great only if you do put the volume at a level that usually make your neighbours banging at your door in seconds.
So you can try about a thousand different plugins and find what combination sounds best for you. Also remember that it will depend of what guitar your using (I've seen too much video of guys saying that this plugin doesn't sound as good as the real thing forgetting to say that the real thing was played with a 3000$ guitar and that he's trying the plugin with a 50$ guitar, but yeah, that's the plugin falling short...)
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:22 AM   #96
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Excuse me, haven't read the whole thread. But I just want to contribute one experience that I regularly have when I mix FOH.
I don't even have to look at the amp, just listen to it during soundcheck, to tell if it's a Line6 (or another brand of digitally modelled circuits, Kemper excluded). It simply doesn't cut through. No way. It sounds sh*te on stage, it sounds sh*te mic'd up, it sounds sh*te DI'd. I'd even go so far to say that a cheap Peavey combo will sound thicker, more organic, more usable than those.

In the studio I only use distortion plugins from time to time – there are pretty nice ones! – and I've come to like my guitar player's Line6 FX pedal. Plugged into a tube amp of course. Never tried guitar-direct-to-plugin, sorry
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
Excuse me, haven't read the whole thread. But I just want to contribute one experience that I regularly have when I mix FOH.
I don't even have to look at the amp, just listen to it during soundcheck, to tell if it's a Line6 (or another brand of digitally modelled circuits, Kemper excluded). It simply doesn't cut through. No way. It sounds sh*te on stage, it sounds sh*te mic'd up, it sounds sh*te DI'd. I'd even go so far to say that a cheap Peavey combo will sound thicker, more organic, more usable than those.

In the studio I only use distortion plugins from time to time – there are pretty nice ones! – and I've come to like my guitar player's Line6 FX pedal. Plugged into a tube amp of course. Never tried guitar-direct-to-plugin, sorry
Yeah, I have to agree with you on the cutting through thing. I think, and I'm guessing here, its that there seems to always be some type of a mid scoop (or something) with those things. Even cranking the mid knob doesn't do it... Its like there is certain frequencies that are just not there..This is in a live context, in the studio, hell you can do whatever you want. As soon as you add the tone of cymbals, and the lows of a bass, its like the guitar just gets washed away..
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:01 PM   #98
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As far as I know the static distortion when hitting a chord is a limitation of cab simulation not amp simulation. A speaker is constantly moving and pushing air, which impulses simply have not been able to emulate 100% accurately.

I do not have a power amp to test this theory, but I would suspect that running a VST amp through a power amp and a speaker cabinet would yield very realistic results.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:08 PM   #99
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You'd have to be half stupid not to use a real amp on stage.

Thats crazy talk.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:18 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cosmic View Post
You'd have to be half stupid not to use a real amp on stage.

Thats crazy talk.
I'm an old tube head from way back. Not as far as others, but far enough. haha

I don't mean to knock digital modeling amps, but I have not had good results from them. I always find it hard to hear what I'm playing when others start to play. The result is me turning up too much and the mix failing..

Having said that, it could be my ears from years of Marshalls at 10 (so to speak) 5 feet away from me..
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:07 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by FarBeyondMetal View Post
As far as I know the static distortion when hitting a chord is a limitation of cab simulation not amp simulation. A speaker is constantly moving and pushing air, which impulses simply have not been able to emulate 100% accurately.

I do not have a power amp to test this theory, but I would suspect that running a VST amp through a power amp and a speaker cabinet would yield very realistic results.
I'm not really sure what you mean by Static Distortion, If you just mean speaker distortion, then yeah you're right. Most, convolution based cab solutions cannot reproduce this non linear behaviour. There is one that I know of that makes the claim of being able to reproduce it, its extremely heavy on CPU and its only capable of minor non linearities... Oh damn I forget the name of it.. I tried their demo, and frankly I could not hear a difference, but then again others swear by it... Geez, I hate that when you forget the name of something... If and when I remember it I'll post the name.. It is a good cab sim, don't get me wrog, but I just could not hear the difference..
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:00 AM   #102
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You'd have to be half stupid not to use a real amp on stage.

Thats crazy talk.
Tell this to those guys who believed the music store salesman... I try to be "diplomatic" when I'm hired for mixing. I tell them what sounds wrong, and that it *might* be this or that setting on their amps. The next gig is better then because they indeed followed my suggestions, but it's still far from good.

I think it also has a lot to do with the levels and/or acoustics in their rehearsal rooms. If everybody is just cranking up their amp - - - "sound" doesn't mean much anymore.

[Thank god my "regular" gigging bands do have proper amps – too loud on stage though but they'll learn.]
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:45 AM   #103
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Tell this to those guys who believed the music store salesman... I try to be "diplomatic" when I'm hired for mixing. I tell them what sounds wrong, and that it *might* be this or that setting on their amps. The next gig is better then because they indeed followed my suggestions, but it's still far from good.

I think it also has a lot to do with the levels and/or acoustics in their rehearsal rooms. If everybody is just cranking up their amp - - - "sound" doesn't mean much anymore.

[Thank god my "regular" gigging bands do have proper amps – too loud on stage though but they'll learn.]
Aww..thats amateur hour stuff..being too loud at practice.

I am a total volume nazi...I even get the drummer to not hit as hard and then we set our levels from there,just get close to your amp if you can't hear it.
We all have marshalls and it can get outta hand too quick..and being the singer if I can't hear myself sing then I end up blowing my voice out..and the singers voice is by far the most important single instrument at least(in my bands anyway).

Not to mention wrecking your ears.I cant stand that either.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:47 AM   #104
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I'm not really sure what you mean by Static Distortion, If you just mean speaker distortion, then yeah you're right. Most, convolution based cab solutions cannot reproduce this non linear behaviour. There is one that I know of that makes the claim of being able to reproduce it, its extremely heavy on CPU and its only capable of minor non linearities... Oh damn I forget the name of it.. I tried their demo, and frankly I could not hear a difference, but then again others swear by it... Geez, I hate that when you forget the name of something... If and when I remember it I'll post the name.. It is a good cab sim, don't get me wrog, but I just could not hear the difference..
I think Two-notes' Torpedo is the name.
I know that there's speaker distortion settings in the VB-101 hardware and I think it's in the Torpedo wall of sound plugin.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:54 AM   #105
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people not knowing how to properly use ampsims does not equal ampsims sounding inherently fake.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:37 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
people not knowing how to properly use ampsims does not equal ampsims sounding inherently fake.
That's probably true, but even if I spend half an hour trying to dial in a "usable" tone for the FOH mix, and I don't come even close to what I want to hear... hm...

Another story: a friend of mine (major label contract) was asked to endorse [insert ampsim company here]. Since his rehearsal room and my studio at that time were in the same building, he asked me to listen to his potential amp-to-be. He had tried and tried for days, when I went there, and while I was not that shocked in the first 5 minutes of listening, I finally was when he switched to his old, analog, amp.
Needless to say he ditched the endorsement contract and sold this POS with an autograph, haha, on evilbay ((:
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:54 AM   #107
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I guess if i used hardware synths my whole life and tried to use one of the modern vsti synths, i might not find the patch I want within 30 minutes.

I know for sure if you put me in front of an old hardware synth, I wouldn't know what to do with it.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:10 AM   #108
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I guess if i used hardware synths my whole life and tried to use one of the modern vsti synths, i might not find the patch I want within 30 minutes.
But it's easy to tell if the overall character of the VSTi is completely wrong. This has nothing to do with "finding a patch".
I've used hardware synths my whole life and I can program most of the VSTi's I like to my satisfaction.

So: why should dialing in a proper tone be this much different in analog amps and ampsims? What special parameters would make me struggle IYO? (Haha, except for the labelling of the preamp or power amp stages: if surprisingly "FNDR SS" would mean "Mesa Tube" )
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:14 AM   #109
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So: why should dialing in a proper tone be this much different in analog amps and ampsims? What special parameters would make me struggle IYO? (Haha, except for the labelling of the preamp or power amp stages: if surprisingly "FNDR SS" would mean "Mesa Tube" )
because they are very obviously meant for different purposes.

That is not to say the ampsims of 6 years ago were sufficient. Only recently I have found them to be excellent, back then they were acceptable. If you understand the point of the ampsim, it works a bit better for you. And even some amp sims seem to work better for different guitars...

ampsims are obviously meant to replicate the finished studio tone of an amp.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
because they are very obviously meant for different purposes.
"Playing on stage" vs. "Playing on stage"?

Quote:
That is not to say the ampsims of 6 years ago were sufficient. Only recently I have found them to be excellent, back then they were acceptable. If you understand the point of the ampsim, it works a bit better for you. And even some amp sims seem to work better for different guitars...
I'm highly interested in that point!!! Really!

Quote:
ampsims are obviously meant to replicate the finished studio tone of an amp.
I'd be happiest man if I would hear this on stage...
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:30 AM   #111
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methinks you should stick to the gear you are used to! Life is too short.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:44 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
methinks you should stick to the gear you are used to! Life is too short.
As an FOH engineer it's not your gear... You are responsible for a good sound, PA and on stage most of the time. That's why I'd really love to know how to improve the sound at the source (if no other source is available).
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:53 AM   #113
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Here's what I am using:

It's a line 6 tube amp that uses the tubes in it's emulation.

The HD500 hooked up through D-LINK (XLR cable) Manipulates the amp seamlessly.

It sounds DAMN good.

Here's a review of the setup: http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/...-and-DT50/4134
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:17 AM   #114
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As an FOH engineer it's not your gear... You are responsible for a good sound, PA and on stage most of the time.
exactly
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Old 06-10-2012, 03:09 PM   #115
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@beingmf..
Just curious about something. Micing has always been in the realm of the soundman, yet with amp sims, that has been taken away. We all know how important that is. What do you think if we were to separate the interface in Head Case live to include an app that allowed the sound man at the board to be able to adjust the mic.. ?

My toughts on this are simnple, everyone develops their own "Style" of mixing live, a soundman hears a certain tone and already knows where he wants to get to with it. He/She instinctively knows, I want the mic here for that type of sound, yet they no longer have that ability because its stuck in a computer on stage. They relegated to trying to talk the guitarist into adjusting som things, and hopefully they comnply. If we remove that from the guitarist, because really it should be none of their concern anyways, then I wonder how much that would help?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:50 AM   #116
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@beingmf..
Just curious about something. Micing has always been in the realm of the soundman, yet with amp sims, that has been taken away. We all know how important that is. What do you think if we were to separate the interface in Head Case live to include an app that allowed the sound man at the board to be able to adjust the mic.. ?

My toughts on this are simnple, everyone develops their own "Style" of mixing live, a soundman hears a certain tone and already knows where he wants to get to with it. He/She instinctively knows, I want the mic here for that type of sound, yet they no longer have that ability because its stuck in a computer on stage. They relegated to trying to talk the guitarist into adjusting som things, and hopefully they comnply. If we remove that from the guitarist, because really it should be none of their concern anyways, then I wonder how much that would help?
I have to deal with 2 kinds of amp sims usually: the first is a digitally modelled combo amp with speaker, where I have a limited chance to make it sound better. The second is a DI'd box of dubious origin, that I have no chance at all to deal with. EQ doesn't really help (except for protecting the audience's ear canals).

As to the idea of remote-controlling the virtual mic:
how many gigging bands do you know that use a laptop on stage? Basically the idea is really fantastic, maybe this feature could even turn into a point of sale? But the guitarists I know all use hardware...

EDIT: a small selection of different mics would be handy, too (like: strong/weak proximity effect, bright/dark basic character, fast/slow response)

Last edited by beingmf; 06-11-2012 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:43 AM   #117
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when I was working full time I used a Pod for solo and duo gigs straight into the PA.

My PA. small but beautifully formed.
Dynacord and celestion.

I spent a LONG time up front developing a clean sound, a dirty sound and a clirty sound with and without slapback echo, which are the four sounds I used mostly for that sort of gig, all on a Line6 pedal selector.
Excellent and in terms of fake or not, since most of the actual amps I was emulating were not what I would call "proper" old school valve amps, who cares if it sounds good?
Failing to get a sim to sit properly in a FOH mix is down to the guy setting up the sim and to a lesser extent the sound engineer.

Mostly I hear amateur players loading far too much gain and distortion onto their sound, either amp or sim, and then wondering why the guitar wont cut.

Wasp in a jamjar.

Now I play for fun I use a Fender tweed deluxe widepanel clone and a H&K Statesman 2xEL84.

One trick ponies both of them but what a trick!
Oh and for functions stuff I have a 1970 Musicman 2x1-" 65watt combo which will also slug down to 25watts.
Not a sim in sight but I still have the Pod and use vst amp sims when I record.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:58 AM   #118
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I got a feelin' I mix the wrong bands...

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Old 06-11-2012, 11:55 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
I have to deal with 2 kinds of amp sims usually: the first is a digitally modelled combo amp with speaker, where I have a limited chance to make it sound better. The second is a DI'd box of dubious origin, that I have no chance at all to deal with. EQ doesn't really help (except for protecting the audience's ear canals).

As to the idea of remote-controlling the virtual mic:
how many gigging bands do you know that use a laptop on stage? Basically the idea is really fantastic, maybe this feature could even turn into a point of sale? But the guitarists I know all use hardware...

EDIT: a small selection of different mics would be handy, too (like: strong/weak proximity effect, bright/dark basic character, fast/slow response)
Yes of course there would be a raft of mics and cabs, I was thinking along the lines of using iFace as the cabinet interface. iFace uses the redwirez Cab IR set. I'm not 100% sure but I think it comes with like 18 mics and 21 different cabs. These are all recorded at different placements.
http://www.redwirez.com/
As a sound man, you would not have to load different files, just move the mic on the screen in the same way you would move the mic on the cab.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:05 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by MacFizz View Post
I think Two-notes' Torpedo is the name.
I know that there's speaker distortion settings in the VB-101 hardware and I think it's in the Torpedo wall of sound plugin.
No it wasn't torpedo that I was talking about. I forgot about that one. I have tried it and its really good. I could be wrong, but torpedo usues poweramp simulation. That's not the same as speaker simulation. In the end its still not emulating speaker distortion.

What I was talking about was this..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volterra_series

There is a convolution based cab sim that uses this...Its good and works just fine, but I failed to hear any real difference between it and other sims. I did not hear the "air" moving as some call it, and I did not hear any speaker distortion. The oveall sound as I say was good, and I would use it if it were not for the amount of CPU used, but in terms of producing that ever elusive speaker distortion from an impulse, I did not hear that..
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