Notation Editor - version 5 discussion

[Evan]

Originally Posted by schwa

Well, here's one of the problems with posting a general plan for things... plans change.

That's the beauty of it actually.... because the complete sentence would be: plans change.... for the better.

Originally Posted by schwa

The notation editor is undergoing a complete rethink/rework...

It will be more tightly integrated with the MIDI editor...

Awesome!

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

please don't let it be an exclusive thing, like Event List. In fact, would it be possible to decouple the Event List from the ME, in a way that you can see the same MIDI item in piano roll/named notes mode, and event list in another window that is dockable?

A little off-topic, but a good point nonetheless regarding the MIDI Editor view modes.

Piano roll + named notes are actually similar. I consider them both the same mode with a different setting. Events list is a different mode. Both piano roll + events should be possible at once, they are neither conflicting, nor redundant. In fact they complement each other, one might even want an events list docked at the top/bottom of the piano roll view.

I also wish for a notation editor in the MIDI Editor that can be used alongside the piano-roll, not instead of it.

[pcartwright]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

or in musicXML

The point of using midi text event is to allow users to convert text instructions to keyswitches, cc changes, or some other midi event via a js plugin (the ability to process midi data is already in the js functionality). Music xml would not address this need.

[Lazarus]

I'm very interested in seeing what the implementation looks like. It would be great to have slurs and whatever else is dynamically calculated to be stored in the metadata in case some nutter *cough* wants to make a MusicXML exporter. The slur data for example would have the slur start and end pointing towards the respective notes.

I'm mentioned it before, and obviously entered or edited notes are hard quantised, but a separate Display Quantise-esque setting for visually hard quantising notes whilst retaining nuance/sloppiness is highly desirable for an application that is for recording/production.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by pcartwright

The point of using midi text event is to allow users to convert text instructions to keyswitches, cc changes, or some other midi event via a js plugin (the ability to process midi data is already in the js functionality). Music xml would not address this need.

Ok, could you give me an example?

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Ok, could you give me an example?

txt=="Ped" ? sendCC(64,127); txt=="*" ? sendCC(64,0);

Pure SysEx would be cool too. I'm guessing ninja bitwise skills are afoot.

[Juca]

One suggestion: when the MIDI Editor is in focus, the ALT+N would is active. Actually, when the MIDI Editor is in focus the shortcut not work.
A menu "View Notation Editor - ALT+N" also could be a good implementation.
Greetings.

[Tale]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Also, the two actual installable font files (OTF) are 1.1 MB, which when packed with 7zip can go to around 600 KB... small enough, perhaps?

Yeah, in fact I think you will only need Bravura.otf, which is only 449 kB (276 kB LZMA compressed).

Originally Posted by schwa

So, if anybody reading this is knowledgeable about creating fonts, and has any interest in helping out, please let us know.

My suggestion would be to find some sort of font read/write lib, and then write a small C++ "script" to automate this. That way it will be easier to update to a future version of original Bravura font. Can't FreeType write fonts? I dunno...

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

txt=="Ped" ? sendCC(64,127); txt=="*" ? sendCC(64,0);

Pure SysEx would be cool too. I'm guessing ninja bitwise skills are afoot.

Not technical. For what usage?

[memyselfandus]

Originally Posted by schwa

Oh by the way. This is not something needed any time soon, but it would be very nice to be able to embed the open-source Bravura notation font in REAPER, so people don't need to download and install it. The whole font is over 5MB zipped, roughly the size of REAPER, but realistically we will only be using a couple of dozen glyphs from the font.

What would be really excellent is if we could create a new font that is just a small subset of Bravura, that we could embed in REAPER. It's a perfect job for an intern, or a summer hire type person, except we don't have any interns or summer hires, plus it's the middle of winter.

So, if anybody reading this is knowledgeable about creating fonts, and has any interest in helping out, please let us know.

Can someone help with this? I would but have no idea how.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Not technical. For what usage?

I suppose that was an example that could well be implemented with the notation editor directly, using the Magic Schwa Length Line Thing, but again this stuff is tricky because a CC64 could be getting used by a VI for something else.

Articulations could be something if even manually adding any old text annotations was something on the horizon. So the JS plugin encounters an instruction and acts on it (changing channel or pressing keyswitch in this example). We can of course do this at the moment with text events, but the notation editor would make it sexy.

Whilst this information is present in a MusicXML file, it is an export(/import) format so that programs using their own systems can talk to one another. The functionality of this notation software has got nothing to do with current lack of MusicXML support (apart from obviously being able to export to MusicXML).

But the main point is that we could do anything with the information that will be stored.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I suppose that was an example that could well be implemented with the notation editor directly, using the Magic Schwa Length Line Thing, but again this stuff is tricky because a CC64 could be getting used by a VI for something else.

Articulations could be something if even manually adding any old text annotations was something on the horizon. So the JS plugin encounters an instruction and acts on it (changing channel or pressing keyswitch in this example). We can of course do this at the moment with text events, but the notation editor would make it sexy.

Whilst this information is present in a MusicXML file, it is an export(/import) format so that programs using their own systems can talk to one another. The functionality of this notation software has got nothing to do with current lack of MusicXML support (apart from obviously being able to export to MusicXML).

But the main point is that we could do anything with the information that will be stored.

Ok

[pcartwright]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I suppose that was an example that could well be implemented with the notation editor directly, using the Magic Schwa Length Line Thing, but again this stuff is tricky because a CC64 could be getting used by a VI for something else.

Articulations could be something if even manually adding any old text annotations was something on the horizon. So the JS plugin encounters an instruction and acts on it (changing channel or pressing keyswitch in this example). We can of course do this at the moment with text events, but the notation editor would make it sexy.

Whilst this information is present in a MusicXML file, it is an export(/import) format so that programs using their own systems can talk to one another. The functionality of this notation software has got nothing to do with current lack of MusicXML support (apart from obviously being able to export to MusicXML).

But the main point is that we could do anything with the information that will be stored.

Exactly. Well said.

[pbognar]

Obviously, the implementation is key, but I never thought I'd see the day where "notation editor" and "Reaper" would be used in the same sentence, except as a wish list feature.

[MCCY]

Argumentation for correct display of transposing instruments:

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Maybe outside the scope of this editor

Hm, what can be done very easily while fullfilling some needs should be done, I think. I bet it's too easy, to not do it :-) If there will be a possibility of printing this is a must & it can be easily added in the clef window, nothing special if you once started, maybe done in 10 min. I guess...

Just imagine, you have a saxophone/clarinet/trumpet... player with you working on a song and you nailed that melody on your keyboard and he wants to play notes, not by ear, so nothing easier to show him your melody with the notation view, much better than exporting to another app.

I tried allready recording a song with pupils in my musicclass & I switched to Logic fun in the end just because of its perfect notation... but I want to make them hungry for reaper, which is fun to make music, but soes not help to play their instrument with their ideas...

I hope the scope of this editor will widen with the needs of the users. Some things should be done so fast when the difficult part is done and I bet this will attract many users!

[Shootkin]

Maybe I am a TL;DR-imbecil, but I have to ask: are there any plans to implement the antialiasing? Thank you.

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

I was hoping the devs would make use of free software projects like LilyPond. The current approach seems to include saving notation specific information in the midi clips, so why not store it in a way that this information can be used with LilyPond?

[Nixon]

I think it should be possible to write a lua script for that later on

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

That sounds very interesting.
I think it would be great to have the ability to create custom information for notes, areas and tracks in Reaper's notation view. This way, we can implement unusual symbols or articulations, page breaks and other special instructions supported by LilyPond but not by Reaper.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave]

That sounds very interesting.
I think it would be great to have the ability to create custom information for notes, areas and tracks in Reaper's notation view. This way, we can implement unusual symbols or articulations, page breaks and other special instructions supported by LilyPond but not by Reaper.

musicXML is the way to go imo, but LilyPond doesn't have it yet.

[pcartwright]

It should be possible to write a script to convert Reaper MIDI and its associated meta information to either LilyPond or MusicXML, but that shouldn't be the primary function of notation in Reaper. As schwa said, this isn't meant to offer the same functionality as Finale or Sibelius (i.e. engraver programs). Notation in Reaper should be a production oriented feature first and foremost. Any engraving features and/or exports should come second.

[FnA]

Originally Posted by pcartwright

Option for continuous view (staves continue to move from left to right with no system break)

+1. I hope it will have some synching/scrolling features.

[swiiscompos]

I guess the continuous view could be useful... But yes, the possibility to have it synchronized with the arrange view/MIDI editor is an essential features imo. I would like to have two modes: a "score" view with all the selected tracks visible in it, and a "lane" mode with just the current track synchronized to and visible under the arrange as well as synchronized to and visible under the MIDI editor (maybe accessible through the CC dropdown menu). When several tracks are selected only the top one appears in the lane.

[FnA]

Originally Posted by swiiscompos

When several tracks are selected only the top one appears in the lane.

Maybe it could have something like how you click a track in TCP and mixer follows or vice versa.

I'm going to continue to use piano roll mostly, so to me I think I will use it as a viewer mainly. NOT trying to shoot down any functionality now.

[swiiscompos]

I will also use it as a viewer mostly. Because I'm working on scores everyday it's much easier for me to check the notes on a staff view.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by pcartwright

It should be possible to write a script to convert Reaper MIDI and its associated meta information to either LilyPond or MusicXML....

I've been doing that on and off for a bit now (for MXML). I'm almost past the point of no return but I'm waiting to see what the meta-data looks like and contains before heading too far down the wrong track.

[memyselfandus]

Exciting times!

[memyselfandus]

I wonder if it's possible to write microtonal scripts or whatever...

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by memyselfandus

I wonder if it's possible to write microtonal scripts or whatever...

Well we can create MIDI events getting all the notes from a MIDI item and adding pitchbend according to note number would be fairly straightforward. You'd probably want to support scala files though which might involve writing a file chooser in the absence of being able to call one of Reaper's.

edit: ^^ I was wrong, there is a file chooser: reaper.GetUserFileNameForRead!

[memyselfandus]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Well we can create MIDI events getting all the notes from a MIDI item and adding pitchbend according to note number would be fairly straightforward. You'd probably want to support scala files though which might involve writing a file chooser in the absence of being able to call one of Reaper's.

interesting......

[memyselfandus]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Well we can create MIDI events getting all the notes from a MIDI item and adding pitchbend according to note number would be fairly straightforward. You'd probably want to support scala files though which might involve writing a file chooser in the absence of being able to call one of Reaper's.

so how do we get started? anyone know how to do this?

I'm assuming we can add our own characters if need be? what I mean is the musical symbols. sounds like the standard symbols may be integrated at some point but I'm thinking we will be able to Add others.

[Lazarus]

I don't know if doing anything directly with the notation editor at the moment is wise because we don't know what will be where in the next release(s). The thing I'm doing is a separate script but maybe the shake-up will render that obsolete too.

I was just answering the general microtonal script question, not thinking that you were talking about doing it with the notation editor (even though it was in this thread). It's interesting, but there are options like whether to use the same scala file as an existing VSTi that supports it and have notes on one channel or having to split notes into voices + channel for generic work so having a multi-voice and channel per voice per stave setup would be essential.

It's not a project I'll be getting involved in, but best of luck with it.

[swiiscompos]

Originally Posted by memyselfandus

so how do we get started? anyone know how to do this?

I'm assuming we can add our own characters if need be? what I mean is the musical symbols. sounds like the standard symbols may be integrated at some point but I'm thinking we will be able to Add others.

The font does contain accidentals for quarter tones, but (I might be wrong) I doubt it will be implemented in the notation editor. A fancy solution would be to let us access some of the less usual symbols and link them to different controls like CCs, pitch, and even why not actions and scripts...

[hamish]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

.... So the JS plugin encounters an instruction and acts on it (changing channel or pressing keyswitch in this example). We can of course do this at the moment with text events, but the notation editor would make it sexy.

Ooh Er!

[Lafci.H]

I am kinda new to reaper, i managed to open score editor in reaper 5 beta but now i don't see it anywhere is it moved or something ?

Thanks

[keys]

Originally Posted by Lafci.H

I am kinda new to reaper, i managed to open score editor in reaper 5 beta but now i don't see it anywhere is it moved or something ?

Thanks

It's out of the pre's for now. Will be back later.

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by MCCY

Hey,someone had that simple but great idea, to get transposed instruments displayed by simply using js transpose before the instrument, so no need to implement a feature in notation view for that.

I like the idea, keeping the notation view as simple as possible, but it should be as flexible and extendable as possible too :-)

Martin

I disagree with that. I want a knob to directly switch between transposed and concert pitch.
This is (IMHO) the easiest way to first play/compose e. g. horns in concert pitch on the keyboard.

[michael diemer]

Sonar's Staff View lets you select any number of staves and it will display them in one window. I have to agree that this should be a feature in even the most basic staff or notation view.

[endorka]

This is a very interesting thread.

I used to write arrangements entirely in a notation editor, but over the last six months I've had far better musical results creating the music in Reaper, then exporting the final music to Musescore to build the notation.

It's a great workflow except for the part where I am importing the generated MIDI into Musescore. No matter how careful I am with quantization etc, it is always a mess. Loads of overlapping notes creating extra voices in monophonic instruments, not-quite-right triplet, and so on. This requires substantial cleaning/tidying. For recent arrangements I've done for an 11-piece swing band it takes approximately a whole day of work per song just to accomplish this import/export step.

If I could export the visually quantized notes from the Reaper notation editor in music XML format, that would be ideal. This way I know exactly what is going to be imported by the notation editor, and could tweak things in Reaper if they weren't quite correct.

It would be a huge productivity boost, and IMHO eliminate one of the biggest barriers to composing / arranging in Reaper for music to be played by real musicians.

Jennifer

[michael diemer]

there's quite a thread going on the Sonar forum concerning improving their staff or notation view. Over 300 replies. It does seem that a synthesis is coming. someone will successfully integrate notation and sequencers. And whoever does that will have the best DAW on the market. The big complaint over there is that sonar has done nothing to improve staff view in many years, and although they keep promising, nothing happens. some folks there don't think a DAW needs a SV/NV, but there are a bunch of folks, myself included, advocating for it. I'm anxiously waiting to see if Reaper does include a SV, and how it stacks up with sonar's.

[hamish]

Originally Posted by endorka

.. I've had far better musical results creating the music in Reaper, then exporting the final music to Musescore to build the notation.

It's a great workflow except for the part where I am importing the generated MIDI into Musescore. No matter how careful I am with quantization etc, it is always a mess. Loads of overlapping notes creating extra voices in monophonic instruments, not-quite-right triplet, and so on. This requires substantial cleaning/tidying. For recent arrangements I've done for an 11-piece swing band it takes approximately a whole day of work per song just to accomplish this import/export step.

I have tried this myself, as I'm sure a lot of people have. I tried some very strict quantising and checking of my sequence before export, but I found it was almost impossible to get anything but the most trivial example to import properly to MuseScore.

Originally Posted by endorka

If I could export the visually quantized notes from the Reaper notation editor in music XML format, that would be ideal. This way I know exactly what is going to be imported by the notation editor, and could tweak things in Reaper if they weren't quite correct.

You are right that MusicXML really is the key. From reading this thread you'll notice too that Lazarus virtually promised us a converter from the Score Editor native format to MusicXML.