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Old 09-19-2022, 03:17 PM   #1
for
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Default if you had very good headphones and decent monitors

if you had very good headphones and decent monitors

but an untreated room

how much percentage of trust would you place on the headphones and how much on the monitors when mixing?

thanks!
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Old 09-20-2022, 05:10 PM   #2
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Pros generally mix on monitors and they generally recommend against mixing on headphones.

Here are two opposite opinions from recording magazine -

The first is from Reader Submissions.
Quote:
As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.
This one is from an engineer who moves from studio-to-studio and he uses headphones for consistency.
Quote:
Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

Mark Hornsby
Recording Magazine, March 2020
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Old 09-20-2022, 05:36 PM   #3
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The more familiar you are with mixing on a given system in a given environment, the more you can trust them. Results don't lie.
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Old 09-20-2022, 05:44 PM   #4
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That's an easy one. Given that we sometimes have to make do with less than ideal circumstances. A bad sounding room will make any speakers a bad reference for what's coming off the main outputs. Untreated doesn't always mean super bad sounding, but for the example let's say it does.

A good set of headphones will be much less affected by the room acoustics, fully enclosed "very good" headphones even less so. That's not a rousing endorsement of mixing under headphones instead of speakers, but headphones will not be affected much by the room. Naturally, if they're bad headphones they're still be bad headphones, but you said "good" headphones

People with home DAWs mix on decent speakers in untreated rooms all the time because they have no choice. If they do many, many mixes and reference them in good listening environments studiously to learn how they translate and go back and mentally adjust the sonic goalposts, they can make mixes that get their point across in the context of the situation.

But good mixing headphones generally win out over decent speakers if the room is fighting you.. You still need to learn how the mixes translate in the outside world and go back in and adjust to get better results in the outside world, if all other parameters are equal and all that.
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Old 09-21-2022, 12:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
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if you had very good headphones and decent monitors

but an untreated room

how much percentage of trust would you place on the headphones and how much on the monitors when mixing?

thanks!
You phrased that potentially confusingly. It should be obvious to absolutely anyone that the room itself makes zero difference to headphones performance.

Untreated meaning what?
Even small rectangular rooms can sound excellent without special treatment. On the other hand empty rooms sound atrocious. In other words you need lots of soft furnishings lots of furniture lots of things to break up sound and absorb the sound regardless of whether they are commercial absorption materials or regular household goods. Books, curtains, carpets, rugs, furniture, soft furnishings.
Of course it can be better with dedicated sound absorption panels.
Take care to understand where the peaks and nulls are in your listening room.

Check the bass balance on high-quality high impedance headphones and mix in the near-field in a well furnished room with properly positioned monitors so you get the experience of sound travelling around the head for real.

Last edited by Softsynth; 09-21-2022 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 09-24-2022, 07:01 AM   #6
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I too have noticed that headphones translate poorly to real-world performance. Which is very unfortunate since there are some really good headphones out there.

I think much of this is because most headphones are single-surface / single-driver, which loses much of the transients, punch, and other fine detail. Not having healthy room reflections is also an issue. Unbalanced response is another, also connected to the first reason.

In my recommendation, if you are working on headphones (also applies to speakers) try to listen to a quiet-to-medium level, to avoid much of harmonic distortion you'd get when listening at higher volumes.

Also, I'd recommend to go into a well-treated professional studio, hire it for an hour or two, and

1. listen to plenty of familiar high-fidelity music both through the speakers and through your headphones
2. listen of plenty of unfamiliar high-fidelity music in the same way
3. try to design an EQ curve that will fit your headphone output to the speaker one (something similar to what Sonarworks are doing)
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Old 09-24-2022, 09:00 AM   #7
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Personally, I'd much rather have great monitors in an untreated room, than shitty monitors in a professionally treated room. Ideally you'd have both. I'd never use cans for mixing or mastering, only pleasure listening and occasional checking of clicks and pops for analytical repair/restoration work.
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Old 09-24-2022, 10:32 AM   #8
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100% headphones. I actually do not use speakers at all, I don't have any, just headphones. Sometimes with crossfeed, sometimes without.

As for a crossfeed plugin, here is ToneBooster's v3 bundle which is free now https://www.toneboosters.com/downloa...legacy_win.zip . There is Isone, I have it setup in a way that id does only crossfeed as much as possible, no room reflections.
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Old 09-26-2022, 02:12 AM   #9
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I think much of this is because most headphones are single-surface / single-driver, which loses much of the transients, punch, and other fine detail.
Happily I can inform you you have been misinformed.
Loudspeakers with multiple drive units are a necessary evil - They have to drive the air in a large space. Crossovers add necessary complexity to loudspeaker designs. The properties of a small, light and fast drive unit ideal for high frequencies do not lend themselves to shifting substantial amounts of air at low frequencies over relatively large distances.

These problems do not exist in drive units for headphones. The single drive unit in a headphone is an asset not a disadvantage. There is no crossover based transient smear with the single drive unit. The small drive units only have to move a tiny distance so distortion is low over a wide frequency range. No need for stiff and heavy drive units with large motor systems to drive bass.

Similarly the single diaphragms of microphones can pick up wide frequency range with tiny light drive units - they don't need to move a large distance to detect frequencies.

The single drive units in high quality headphones can be very sophisticated.
Details over headphones can be incredible.

It is hard to replicate that in loudspeakers where the sound which combines with our rooms. Happily our ears are very forgiving, and they do not recognise the substantial distortion in the bass over loudspeakers, unless it's really terrible humans actually like it and perceive moderate levels of distortion as loudness.

In terms of detail you have to spend a great deal more on loudspeakers and listening rooms than on cans. However detail is not the be all and end all.
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Old 09-26-2022, 12:06 PM   #10
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@for...not to be pushy, but when do we get top see/hear what you do with all this info you collect?

Honestly it's hard to tell if you even read any of it, based on your question to response ratio...
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Old 09-27-2022, 08:51 AM   #11
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@for...not to be pushy, but when do we get top see/hear what you do with all this info you collect?

Honestly it's hard to tell if you even read any of it, based on your question to response ratio...
i understand what u're saying

\other forums u can click symbols like agree/like/etc on each comment...

i can't answer to everyone who responds....i mean if i agree/disagree/like i have to answer to each one?...

as i said the forum needs to put those symbols so u can easily at least agree/like each comment

thats why i mostly say thanks right after my question usually

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Old 09-27-2022, 10:12 AM   #12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4YuXNTCU2Y
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Old 09-27-2022, 03:54 PM   #13
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i understand what u're saying

\other forums u can click symbols like agree/like/etc on each comment...
That wasn't supposed to be the takeaway...I'm not asking you to respond to each comment, but to somehow, sometime demonstrate you understood anything that was said to you by e.g. posting some material, or responding with some substance.

As a public forum, when you post questions publicly, it's not just for you or the folks answering your questions. Other people can read this and learn things even years from now (rovided threads stay on topic with quality posts).

Look, maybe I've got the wrong impression but if you barely take part in the discussions you prompt, or give literally anything back, it comes off as rude; as if you treat the community as your personal Google.

You get most of the same information and more from Google, but the difference here is you can get clarification and fresh ideas through interaction. It's not about "thanks for the info." No one needs hear that every time.

I'm probably coming off as rude rn, but please think a bit about the quality of your threads vs the quantity. Try to get more out of each one, rather than posting again and again, asking questions that suggest you didn't really understand the answers you already got.

P.S. it's much easier to interact w forums via computer rather than phone...if that's indeed that's the cause for your minimal posting and disregard for punctuation.
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Old 09-28-2022, 12:32 AM   #14
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to explain
some ppl are here to get an answer like as you're going to ikea can't find something you ask some staff where it is. doesn't necessarily mean u have to explain yourself that you comprehended the answer. however not saying thanks or a sign you understood...its indeed rude.

thats why i said once again i believe there should be a forum system to at least like/agree/disagree/useful/interesting for each comment and to be able to highlight best answer if needed.

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Old 09-28-2022, 01:24 AM   #15
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That's an odd thing to be mad about. OP doesn't own anyone an explanation - his threads are still helpful on account of all the advice users are leaving there. Hopefully not expecting anything "back" (what is this, should we post paypal links in the sig now or something lol).

Pretty safe to say most of us aren't pros churning tracks to a deadline. Everyone works in their own pace, it shouldn't be like working in a factory, or sweating before an inevitable exam. It should be all leisure and lava lamps
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:15 AM   #16
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That's an odd thing to be mad about.
You're right. The point's not getting across anyway. I'm not mad, but the sheer quantity became hard to ignore and to rub me the wrong way...1300 posts and 500 of those are new threads...

Personally, I don't very much like being regarded as equivalent to "ikea staff." I guess it's just me. I'll be going now...

But for the record this is like the 5th or 6th time I've asked OP if they would/why they don't share some of the music they're working on but I guess a response of any kind is too much to ask. *sigh* Yea yea, I'm too sensitive...
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:27 AM   #17
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Personally, I don't very much like being regarded as equivalent to "ikea staff." I guess it's just me. I'll be going now...
The ignore list is a great friend, but before you go, I need to know which is the spatula aisle!

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Old 09-28-2022, 11:44 AM   #18
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The ignore list is a great friend
Unfortunately not a very reliable friend...I tried that with another user because the constant, dramatic hold-my-hand titles alone were triggering me...but some still sneak through dammit, tempting me to post some snark. Only I can't read the actual post ofc, bc of the list.

Ignore list has some bugs...

Also, why hasn't Weird Al made more films?
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:49 AM   #19
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Unfortunately not a very reliable friend...I tried that with another user because the constant, dramatic hold-my-hand titles alone were triggering me...but some still sneak through dammit, tempting me to post some snark. Only I can't read the actual post ofc, bc of the list.

Ignore list has some bugs...
Yeah, agreed. Its more of a tool to help resist clicking on threads or posts, an extra hoop to jump thru that may break the habit.

I had the same issues with it until I stumbled across that thinking, just speaking for myself of course, not advising at all.
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:50 AM   #20
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You're right. The point's not getting across anyway. I'm not mad, but the sheer quantity became hard to ignore and to rub me the wrong way...1300 posts and 500 of those are new threads...

Personally, I don't very much like being regarded as equivalent to "ikea staff." I guess it's just me. I'll be going now...

But for the record this is like the 5th or 6th time I've asked OP if they would/why they don't share some of the music they're working on but I guess a response of any kind is too much to ask. *sigh* Yea yea, I'm too sensitive...

i also have a patience issue

sometimes if i see an answer thats too technical i might see this is out of my skill and i dont' have the patience to reach that and call it a day.

so the issue is on my side

i sometimes don't have the patience or willing to reach understanding in some responses because as i said, i might know it will take me whole day to research it or something which i may or may not be willing to do at that point.

it depends what i'm trying to achieve

as to why i am not sharing music I just don't do that..

i don't have anything with u and i fully understand your side and i could predict someone would complain at some point

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Old 09-28-2022, 12:02 PM   #21
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I have the same situation as the OP. Untreated room with lots of acoustical issues but nice speakers (Kali IN5) and great headphones (Sennheiser HD600).

I edit on the speakers as I don't like wearing headphones for long periods of time.

I mix 100% on headphones as the acoustical issues in the room prevent me from making good mixing choices.

Mixing on headphones takes some getting used too but when you're used to it, you can mix anywhere. Which is great!

The HD600 without correction sound a bit weak in the low end but Sonarworks fixed this for me, plus it irons out other minor idiosyncrasies of the HD600.

i also use GoodHertz's "CanOpener" plugin, which crossfeeds left channel stuff to the right and vice versa. My mixes made on headphones started translating much better on real speakers when I started using CanOpener. If the mix sounds great on speakers, it will probably sound great on headphones too.

Andrew Scheps mixes on those cheap Sony headphones. Apparently it's possible to mix big records on cheap headphones . Don't know if he uses crossfeed plugins or correction eq's.
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Old 09-28-2022, 12:05 PM   #22
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Well thank you for, for the explanation and also trying to understand my POV.
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Old 09-28-2022, 12:09 PM   #23
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Well thank you for, for the explanation and also trying to understand my POV.
i should be the thankful one man....thanks for your answers! and everyone on forum....i am taking note of what u said i don't disregard anything its all useful. we all try to improve

oh and another thing.....u see just now pasz wrote a whole paragraph of things

i mean if i already got my answer on first day replies.....sometimes i stop reading too much after that if next day there's more replies....it depends if i'm still looking into the topic, which once again, is not too polite

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Old 09-28-2022, 12:18 PM   #24
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I have the same situation as the OP. Untreated room with lots of acoustical issues but nice speakers (Kali IN5) and great headphones (Sennheiser HD600).

I edit on the speakers as I don't like wearing headphones for long periods of time.

I mix 100% on headphones as the acoustical issues in the room prevent me from making good mixing choices.

Mixing on headphones takes some getting used too but when you're used to it, you can mix anywhere. Which is great!

The HD600 without correction sound a bit weak in the low end but Sonarworks fixed this for me, plus it irons out other minor idiosyncrasies of the HD600.

i also use GoodHertz's "CanOpener" plugin, which crossfeeds left channel stuff to the right and vice versa. My mixes made on headphones started translating much better on real speakers when I started using CanOpener. If the mix sounds great on speakers, it will probably sound great on headphones too.

Andrew Scheps mixes on those cheap Sony headphones. Apparently it's possible to mix big records on cheap headphones . Don't know if he uses crossfeed plugins or correction eq's.
i checked a lot of waves plugins for that..i'll check CanOpener too seems like they have a trial which is convenient, thanks!
https://goodhertz.com/downloads/
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Old 09-28-2022, 01:46 PM   #25
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great headphones (Sennheiser HD600).

I edit on the speakers as I don't like wearing headphones for long periods of time.
But these are so comfy I literally forget I'm wearing them. You don't find it so? Still, I also prefer speakers whenever possible.
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Old 09-28-2022, 01:49 PM   #26
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great headphones (Sennheiser HD600).

I edit on the speakers as I don't like wearing headphones for long periods of time.
But these are so comfy I literally forget I'm wearing them. You don't find it so? Still, I also prefer speakers whenever possible.

It's a lot easier to trust your ears when you're used to hearing everything through the same setup. I use my monitors for TV, radio etc, and in many different rooms by now, so it's a lot easier to know what to expect from them.

I'll have to give Sonarworks a try...
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Old 09-29-2022, 06:20 AM   #27
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But these are so comfy I literally forget I'm wearing them. You don't find it so? Still, I also prefer speakers whenever possible.

///

I'll have to give Sonarworks a try...
Being a glasses wearer makes a large amount of headphones unusable for any length of time for me. I have to use headphones that go around the ear, AKG702's have been a saviour in that regard. Sonarworks is the icing on the cake (other options are available ), the other thing that stopped me from being able to use headphones for more than 20 minutes was its wrong freq response, very fatiguing. Not any more tho

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Also, why hasn't Weird Al made more films?
UHF flopped hard. He has a comedy biopic on the way, releasing soon.
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Old 09-29-2022, 09:35 AM   #28
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But these are so comfy I literally forget I'm wearing them. You don't find it so? Still, I also prefer speakers whenever possible.
They are comfy but after a while my ears get too warm!

I prefer mixing on nearfields too. I had great sounding treated mixing rooms in my previous two houses. Our new home has three bedrooms. One for me and my partner, one for my son, and the smallest room became my home office/mancave/"mix room". I have nice speakers but nice speakers can sound very crap in a crap sounding room. If I mixed professionally I would have rented a space, but I mix maybe 3 records a year, so mixing on headphones was the only way for me.
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Old 09-29-2022, 09:37 AM   #29
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Being a glasses wearer makes a large amount of headphones unusable for any length of time for me.
Maybe you could use in ear headphones? I have to look into this myself one day, because of the whole ears-get-hot-business.
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Old 09-29-2022, 09:40 AM   #30
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BTW I find I often turn up the headphones up too loud. It happens gradually. Maybe it's just me but when you start mixing on headphones, it's a good to be mindful of this.
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Old 09-29-2022, 07:58 PM   #31
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Maybe you could use in ear headphones? I have to look into this myself one day, because of the whole ears-get-hot-business.
Maybe but I'd have to get some moulded, my ears dont like all the in ears I've tried for various reasons, tho I'm really happy with the around the ear cushions on the akg's, and they never get too hot thankfully.

Low volume monitoring all the way here, neighbours/thin walls/being mostly nocturnal give me little choice there anyway I used to love loud volume in headphones but I cant do it these days, it get so tiring on my ears, and I've found it literally sends me to sleep from sensory overload
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Old 09-30-2022, 04:43 AM   #32
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I have the same situation as the OP. Untreated room with lots of acoustical issues but nice speakers (Kali IN5) and great headphones (Sennheiser HD600).

I edit on the speakers as I don't like wearing headphones for long periods of time.

I mix 100% on headphones as the acoustical issues in the room prevent me from making good mixing choices.

Mixing on headphones takes some getting used too but when you're used to it, you can mix anywhere. Which is great!

The HD600 without correction sound a bit weak in the low end but Sonarworks fixed this for me, plus it irons out other minor idiosyncrasies of the HD600.

i also use GoodHertz's "CanOpener" plugin, which crossfeeds left channel stuff to the right and vice versa. My mixes made on headphones started translating much better on real speakers when I started using CanOpener. If the mix sounds great on speakers, it will probably sound great on headphones too.

Andrew Scheps mixes on those cheap Sony headphones. Apparently it's possible to mix big records on cheap headphones . Don't know if he uses crossfeed plugins or correction eq's.
as soon i load canopener in its default settings i like the way it sounds...do you know how can i achieve that without the plugin or its too complicated to do that without the plugin
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Old 09-30-2022, 05:28 AM   #33
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as soon i load canopener in its default settings i like the way it sounds...do you know how can i achieve that without the plugin or its too complicated to do that without the plugin
I use the default too!

Not sure what the plugin does but perhaps you can emulate this with stock reaper plugins? I guess you need to feed a bit of the left channel into the right and vice versa, and have that feedback delayed a bit. Maybe use a short reverb, only early reflections?
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Old 09-30-2022, 05:45 AM   #34
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I use the default too!

Not sure what the plugin does but perhaps you can emulate this with stock reaper plugins? I guess you need to feed a bit of the left channel into the right and vice versa, and have that feedback delayed a bit. Maybe use a short reverb, only early reflections?
hm interesting....does it mono the sound a bit? or its still stereo?

i'm not sure if i'll achieve that but i'll experiment thanks for the tips

have u just started using reaper? u joined forum sep 2022 and already know more than me haha

u used other daw before?

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Old 09-30-2022, 11:21 AM   #35
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hm interesting....does it mono the sound a bit? or its still stereo?

i'm not sure if i'll achieve that but i'll experiment thanks for the tips

have u just started using reaper? u joined forum sep 2022 and already know more than me haha

u used other daw before?
The mix sounds a little bit less wide with those cross feed plugins, in my ears.

I started using Reaper about 6 months ago I think. Learned a lot about Reaper by watching vids by Kenny Gioia, Adam Steel, Myk Robinson and others. And just trying and playing with Reaper.

I used several DAWS the past 25 years, used Pro Tools the longest (about 20 years). I still have Pro Tools because I sometimes have to reopen old projects. I mix and master semi professionally.

Started using Reaper because I dislike Avid's business practices and lack of innovation, its intentionally crippled software, iLok... It's a shame because Pro Tools is amazing for recording and mixing.

But I'm getting better and better at using Reaper, and have customised the configuration to fit my needs. Out of the box I would say Reapers usability isn't great, in some areas I think it's horrible, but the customisation fixes a lot of the usability related issues (but sadly not all).
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Old 09-30-2022, 11:42 AM   #36
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If the Headphones and Monitors had "room correction software" applied, & knew the headphones really well, I would be confident enough to get mixing done.
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Old 09-30-2022, 12:03 PM   #37
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If the Headphones and Monitors had "room correction software" applied, & knew the headphones really well, I would be confident enough to get mixing done.
Headphones do not require room correction. Broom cupboard or grand hall irrelevant to headphones.

You could potentially use EQ correction for iffy frequency response of a specific model, but that's not room correction, that only takes into account the headphones themselves.
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Old 09-30-2022, 03:25 PM   #38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4YuXNTCU2Y&t=39s
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Old 10-01-2022, 04:26 AM   #39
for
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasz View Post
The mix sounds a little bit less wide with those cross feed plugins, in my ears.

I started using Reaper about 6 months ago I think. Learned a lot about Reaper by watching vids by Kenny Gioia, Adam Steel, Myk Robinson and others. And just trying and playing with Reaper.

I used several DAWS the past 25 years, used Pro Tools the longest (about 20 years). I still have Pro Tools because I sometimes have to reopen old projects. I mix and master semi professionally.

Started using Reaper because I dislike Avid's business practices and lack of innovation, its intentionally crippled software, iLok... It's a shame because Pro Tools is amazing for recording and mixing.

But I'm getting better and better at using Reaper, and have customised the configuration to fit my needs. Out of the box I would say Reapers usability isn't great, in some areas I think it's horrible, but the customisation fixes a lot of the usability related issues (but sadly not all).

nice!!
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Old 10-01-2022, 08:08 AM   #40
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Those "cross feed" plugins...
Straight from the back pages of the audiophile magazines! Right next to the $200 gold plated USB cables made of plutonian nyborg wire.
Can you say comb filtered? I knew you could!

I guess it adds extra proof that anything and everything sounds fine in headphones. It can lead to wonky mixes. Good speakers in a reasonable room will always be better. To be clear though, I can't argue with any of the comments preferring them over a shitty room and consistency when you get to know them. Pretty f'ing matter of fact!

I've made a few broadcast mixes using my Shure E4 in-ear monitors. They came out OK. I wouldn't ever share or release them though! (I mean, they're out there somewhere in someone's bootleg collection now no matter what I want.) Felt a little desperate and I suppose it was.
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