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Old 03-11-2020, 08:01 AM   #7441
Geoff Waddington
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Ok, a hypothetical workflow concept is coming together, not sure we need the feature request — here goes:

I think there is a better way than the navigators approach mentioned a while back.

Based on all the great posts from you folks and a bunch of research, I think 2 points are key:
Immediacy — tedious workarounds don’t cut it as @airon and others point out
Solid reference — it has to be very predictable

Seems like the TrackNavigator / Channel approach is the way to go here.

So, no new Navigators, mapping, toggling, etc.

Theoretical use case for Folders (not promising it can be built ):

Hold down Alt

Any Channels (tracks) that are Folder Parents light up the select button.

If you continue to hold Alt and Hit Select for a Folder Parent Channel (track):
1 the Folder Parent track jumps to leftmost position and pins itself there.
2 the Folder children spill to the right -- banking and everything else just works as usual

GoHome to return to normal.

Similar use cases for VCAs, and we could even do Sends / Returns this way.

This doesn’t address showing / hiding at all, it’s just a first shot at quick, efficient navigation.

Thoughts ?
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Old 03-11-2020, 10:43 AM   #7442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Ok, a hypothetical workflow concept is coming together, not sure we need the feature request — here goes:

I think there is a better way than the navigators approach mentioned a while back.

Based on all the great posts from you folks and a bunch of research, I think 2 points are key:
Immediacy — tedious workarounds don’t cut it as @airon and others point out
Solid reference — it has to be very predictable

Seems like the TrackNavigator / Channel approach is the way to go here.

So, no new Navigators, mapping, toggling, etc.

Theoretical use case for Folders (not promising it can be built ):

Hold down Alt

Any Channels (tracks) that are Folder Parents light up the select button.

If you continue to hold Alt and Hit Select for a Folder Parent Channel (track):
1 the Folder Parent track jumps to leftmost position and pins itself there.
2 the Folder children spill to the right -- banking and everything else just works as usual

GoHome to return to normal.

Similar use cases for VCAs, and we could even do Sends / Returns this way.

This doesn’t address showing / hiding at all, it’s just a first shot at quick, efficient navigation.

Thoughts ?
Sounds great !Just thinking out loud.(i know scary haha).maybe after all that a toggle quick press of alt tied to the show/hide children action for show and hide ? If theres a way to differentiate between a hold press ..a press...and a quick press ?
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Old 03-11-2020, 10:51 AM   #7443
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Default Midi pedal control of web interface

Hi & thanks for all your great work on this.

As a singer/ guitarist I’d like to suggest the capability to control the interface by wireless Bluetooth midi pedal (eg page-turning pedal or irig BlueBoard etc), thus giving hands-free control. For me, this would just need to be transport start/stop.

Apologies if this already exists (does it?), has been suggested before or isn’t possible.

Thanks & regards,

Baz
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:22 AM   #7444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I haven't been able to make the surface scroll to the selected track automatically. I have to select it on the screen, then the surface scrolls. I'd like to fix that
Assuming it's about control surface notification (fired by Reaper),
Justin made some tweaks to this shortly ago.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=232461
Quote:
+ Track manager: notify control surfaces when changing selection
Maybe post in that thread about it (I've posted about another case there.)
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:13 PM   #7445
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If you don't have an iPad running Avid Control and no Dock, the Artist Mix lets you double click Assign/Sel on a VCA track to spill it out. VCA master channel gets hardwired to the right most fader (in Reaper it'd be left) and double clicking that assign button on that VCA master channel gets you right back to your prior view. I'm not sure if that could be doable in the confines of CSI but that seems even easier to me.

Otherwise, looking at my Artist Mix, how would you propose VCA spill with the Artist Mix+Eucon? We have a Group/Aux button. Could we put it into Group mode (similar to holding Alt in your example) and have Folder tracks appear then spill from there?

Sorry if I'm getting ahead of my skis.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:20 PM   #7446
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Perhaps a context sensitive navigation action could work that functiions as a teigger for either displaying the top-level master/folder tracks or navigating back up the hierarchy.

Not sure how much time that would save.

I’d likely just keep single level vcas around.

The double press sounds interesting as a drill down method.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:40 PM   #7447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geetarbaz View Post
Hi & thanks for all your great work on this.

As a singer/ guitarist I’d like to suggest the capability to control the interface by wireless Bluetooth midi pedal (eg page-turning pedal or irig BlueBoard etc), thus giving hands-free control. For me, this would just need to be transport start/stop.

Apologies if this already exists (does it?), has been suggested before or isn’t possible.

Thanks & regards,

Baz

Assuming they just show up as MIDI controllers to Reaper, this should be fine. The wireless part shouldn't really come into it.



I have my midi floorcontrol (FCB1010) doing a bunch of things: selected transport controls, control of take/looping, etc. CSI doesn't know it's on the floor, and in your case, shouldn't care that it is wireless.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:40 PM   #7448
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Originally Posted by airon View Post
The double press sounds interesting as a drill down method.
You can see it in action in this video from Pro Tools Expert. Seems pretty intuitive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzId8T6QQtY
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:46 PM   #7449
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Is it possible to use a surface with csi thats not on the included list of surfaces ? Thanks all
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Old 03-11-2020, 03:33 PM   #7450
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Originally Posted by Cragster View Post
Is it possible to use a surface with csi thats not on the included list of surfaces ? Thanks all
Any MIDI, MCU, OSC, and Eucon (work in progress) surface should work.

Any other protocols, probably not so much.
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:10 PM   #7451
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
Any MIDI, MCU, OSC, and Eucon (work in progress) surface should work.

Any other protocols, probably not so much.
Thank you. I might be able to get an icon platform m plus compact cheap cheap. I want to map it just for plugins. So ill have main surface and then that just for plugins. That can be done right ? Thanks !!
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:35 PM   #7452
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Thank you. I might be able to get an icon platform m plus compact cheap cheap. I want to map it just for plugins. So ill have main surface and then that just for plugins. That can be done right ? Thanks !!
As long as it does MCU or MIDI, yeah, I don't see why not. FocusedFXNavigator?
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:38 PM   #7453
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
As long as it does MCU or MIDI, yeah, I don't see why not. FocusedFXNavigator?
I have them on selct track navigator now. It gives me the fx menu thing. I havnt tried focus fx yet. You like that better ??
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:40 PM   #7454
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But i would love to have a small extra surface just for plugins. I think that would be pretty cool and more organized
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:45 PM   #7455
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I have them on selct track navigator now. It gives me the fx menu thing. I havnt tried focus fx yet. You like that better ??
I personally love Focused FX Navigator. Got used to it from Studio One, whose Control Link functionality works like that. I have a LOT of plugins and just want to be able to map every controller to every plugin I use regularly just once, then never have to think about it again. Pop open a compressor, tweak on the surface, then switch to the EQ, tweak on the surface, then open a gate, adjust that, reverb, etc.

I find you get the most flexibility by just mapping to what's opened. Your mileage may vary of course.
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:55 PM   #7456
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Originally Posted by MalcolmG View Post
Assuming they just show up as MIDI controllers to Reaper, this should be fine. The wireless part shouldn't really come into it.



I have my midi floorcontrol (FCB1010) doing a bunch of things: selected transport controls, control of take/looping, etc. CSI doesn't know it's on the floor, and in your case, shouldn't care that it is wireless.
Thanks for your reply from which I gather I need my Bluetooth pedal to control Reaper on my Mac (ie without using the interface) but unfortunately I have an older MacPro with no Bluetooth - guess I’ll have to look into getting a Bluetooth card for it unless I can use the interface on my phone or iPad, both of which have BT of course. Always assuming Reaper on the Mac will recognise a wireless midi with no physical interface, just an app...
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Old 03-11-2020, 05:58 PM   #7457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

Hold down Alt

Any Channels (tracks) that are Folder Parents light up the select button.

If you continue to hold Alt and Hit Select for a Folder Parent Channel (track):
1 the Folder Parent track jumps to leftmost position and pins itself there.
2 the Folder children spill to the right -- banking and everything else just works as usual

GoHome to return to normal.

Similar use cases for VCAs, and we could even do Sends / Returns this way.

This doesn’t address showing / hiding at all, it’s just a first shot at quick, efficient navigation.

Thoughts ?
It sounds good

I'm not sure the selected parent should move. It would probably be ok on an 8 channel surface, but any bigger and it's going to be disorientating to have it suddenly jump to far left. Just have the children spill to the right and let people bank as needed to reveal any that are not shown (or indeed pin the parent if need be)

Rather than GoHome, couldn't the exposed child tracks be collapsed back into the Parent with another press (or just toggle the original Alt+SelectTrack? Then the normal flow of surface usage doesn't change. The user has the option of leaving the folder spilt or closing it back up, just like it would be on the screen.
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Old 03-11-2020, 06:07 PM   #7458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Assuming it's about control surface notification (fired by Reaper),
Justin made some tweaks to this shortly ago.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=232461


Maybe post in that thread about it (I've posted about another case there.)
Thanks for this

To be honest, I haven't checked to see if the behaviour has changed with the most recent Reaper. I'll give it a go.
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Old 03-12-2020, 03:05 AM   #7459
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Maybe astupid question to Geoff, if i put my xtouch and xtouc extenders in xctl mode, will i be able to generate a new .mst file and use the .zon files i already have?
in this way i'd send sysex to controllers and use coloured scribble displays.
Maybe it's worth a try...
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Old 03-12-2020, 10:33 AM   #7460
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Hello again, here's another newbie question I should have asked 2 years ago!

- If I have a controller that is also an instrument (midi keyboard + buttons/knobs), how would I go about setting this up so I can use the keyboard for VSTi but the knobs and buttons for CSI actions?
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:09 AM   #7461
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Originally Posted by poetnprophet View Post
Hello again, here's another newbie question I should have asked 2 years ago!

- If I have a controller that is also an instrument (midi keyboard + buttons/knobs), how would I go about setting this up so I can use the keyboard for VSTi but the knobs and buttons for CSI actions?
I have one like this (Akai MPK49) It has 2 sets of MIDI I/O accessible over USB. I use one for set for the keyboard, pads and wheels (enabled in MIDI devices) and the other set for the faders, knobs and buttons (disabled in MIDI devices, usual .mst/.zon in CSI)
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:27 AM   #7462
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I have one like this (Akai MPK49) It has 2 sets of MIDI I/O accessible over USB. I use one for set for the keyboard, pads and wheels (enabled in MIDI devices) and the other set for the faders, knobs and buttons (disabled in MIDI devices, usual .mst/.zon in CSI)
hmmm, ok I will check that out. I have the MPK225, so should be similar.
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:30 AM   #7463
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hmmm, ok I will check that out. I have the MPK225, so should be similar.
Should be. Just means moving the keys, pads and wheels to USB_A and the faders, knobs and buttons to USB_B. Bit of work, but can be saved in a preset.
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:42 AM   #7464
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I'm not sure what you mean about moving them and making a preset?
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:51 AM   #7465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
If you don't have an iPad running Avid Control and no Dock, the Artist Mix lets you double click Assign/Sel on a VCA track to spill it out. VCA master channel gets hardwired to the right most fader (in Reaper it'd be left) and double clicking that assign button on that VCA master channel gets you right back to your prior view. I'm not sure if that could be doable in the confines of CSI but that seems even easier to me.

Sorry if I'm getting ahead of my skis.
Not getting ahead at all

I was definitely "informed" by that video

The tricky bit is "prior view" -- that implies a stack (store).
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:54 AM   #7466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Perhaps a context sensitive navigation action could work that functiions as a teigger for either displaying the top-level master/folder tracks or navigating back up the hierarchy.

Not sure how much time that would save.

I’d likely just keep single level vcas around.
Yeah, thinking this whole thing gets MUCH more amenable to a reasonable solution if we constrain Folders/VCAs to one level.

As for "navigating back up the hierarchy" that implies a stack (store).
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:54 AM   #7467
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I'm not sure what you mean about moving them and making a preset?
Select a preset you're not using for anything else.

Enter edit mode, move a control.

On the display, see what output/channel it's assigned to. Chances are it's 'Common' Change it to A1.

Repeat for all other faders, knobs etc. If you want to save a bit of time you could also assign the CC/Note info you will use in your .mst. Personally, I prefer to set up all the output/channel stuff first, then get into controller assignment.

When that's done, check to see what output/channel the keyboard, pads and wheels are assigned to. If they are 'Common' you can change the Common output/channel in Global Settings to B1 and you're done or you can change the keyboard, pads and wheels to B1 individually.

When you've completed all of this remember to save the preset.
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:57 AM   #7468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
As for "navigating back up the hierarchy" that implies a stack (store).
Make use of the SWS snapshot system. Makes going back one level easy.
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:01 PM   #7469
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post

I'm not sure the selected parent should move. It would probably be ok on an 8 channel surface, but any bigger and it's going to be disorientating to have it suddenly jump to far left. Just have the children spill to the right and let people bank as needed to reveal any that are not shown (or indeed pin the parent if need be)
Yes, that is the trickiest bit -- I think you're right we should stay put

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Rather than GoHome, couldn't the exposed child tracks be collapsed back into the Parent with another press (or just toggle the original Alt+SelectTrack? Then the normal flow of surface usage doesn't change. The user has the option of leaving the folder spilt or closing it back up, just like it would be on the screen.
Yes, I was referring to Home in a general sense.

Maybe I'm WAY overthinking this.

If we constrain the solution to one level deep for Folders/VCAs AND say that Parents and Children must be sequential -- Folders do this by nature -- VCAs would need to follow convention -- if we accept all of that it becomes a simple hide / show exercise.

Make sense ?

[edit] -- How do you know where the "edges" are -- e.g. where the last Child in a given folder is, and where the first Track that is not a Folder child is also -- an indication of the Parent would be needed, right ?
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:03 PM   #7470
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Make use of the SWS snapshot system. Makes going back one level easy.
Would this work if you drilled down, then opened an FX Zone (thereby clobbering some buttons), then wanted to return to the pre drill down state ?
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:15 PM   #7471
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Originally Posted by lubvic View Post
Maybe astupid question to Geoff, if i put my xtouch and xtouc extenders in xctl mode, will i be able to generate a new .mst file and use the .zon files i already have?
in this way i'd send sysex to controllers and use coloured scribble displays.
Maybe it's worth a try...
I don't think we did support for the xctl mode with SysEx yet, maybe someone can correct me
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:18 PM   #7472
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Select a preset you're not using for anything else.

Enter edit mode, move a control.

On the display, see what output/channel it's assigned to. Chances are it's 'Common' Change it to A1.

Repeat for all other faders, knobs etc. If you want to save a bit of time you could also assign the CC/Note info you will use in your .mst. Personally, I prefer to set up all the output/channel stuff first, then get into controller assignment.

When that's done, check to see what output/channel the keyboard, pads and wheels are assigned to. If they are 'Common' you can change the Common output/channel in Global Settings to B1 and you're done or you can change the keyboard, pads and wheels to B1 individually.

When you've completed all of this remember to save the preset.
Ahhh yes now i slightly remember, it's been 4 years since I did that. THANKS!
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Old 03-12-2020, 12:45 PM   #7473
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Would this work if you drilled down, then opened an FX Zone (thereby clobbering some buttons), then wanted to return to the pre drill down state ?
Can't say for sure, my FX zones open on a separate surface. I've been using the Snapshots as a way of recalling selection/visibility after completely flipping the surface to show only the contents of a Group or the returns associated with a channel's sends.

I think the folders should be addressed by a simple show/hide approach. When you 'open' a parent track, the children spill to the right of the parent, pushing existing tracks to the right- exactly as happens on the screen. Banking, pinning as normal.

If the children contain parents, opening them spills them to the right of the parent and all the tracks after them move right.

To 'go back' in this context means closing, preferably toggling, the parent. If you close the parent of another, spilt parent, all the children of both parents disappear.

Whether the '2nd level' children re-appear automatically when the '1st level' parent is re-opened is up to you, i'd say not ie closing the superior parent closes all subordinate parents and when the superior parent is re-opened the subordinate parents are closed.

I'm not sure that VCAs/Groups can be treated in the same way as folders because they're not treated the same way in Reaper itself. You can't show/hide Group contents without using Actions based on Group content selections.

Maybe nail down the folders first.
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Old 03-12-2020, 02:18 PM   #7474
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I think the folders should be addressed by a simple show/hide approach. When you 'open' a parent track, the children spill to the right of the parent, pushing existing tracks to the right- exactly as happens on the screen. Banking, pinning as normal.

If the children contain parents, opening them spills them to the right of the parent and all the tracks after them move right.

To 'go back' in this context means closing, preferably toggling, the parent. If you close the parent of another, spilt parent, all the children of both parents disappear.

Whether the '2nd level' children re-appear automatically when the '1st level' parent is re-opened is up to you, i'd say not ie closing the superior parent closes all subordinate parents and when the superior parent is re-opened the subordinate parents are closed.
Aha, just got another way to think about folders.

When they are all open it's just the normal track list.

Closing a folder hides a block of consecutive tracks.

There is a parent override on visibility.

This implies we will really have to break down and store some state here.

The good news is, since we are doing it anyway, we might as well allow back navigation that remembers sub Folder states.

How do we demarcate the Folders, we can't indent

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I'm not sure that VCAs/Groups can be treated in the same way as folders because they're not treated the same way in Reaper itself. You can't show/hide Group contents without using Actions based on Group content selections.

Maybe nail down the folders first.
Fair point.
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:42 PM   #7475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Aha, just got another way to think about folders.

When they are all open it's just the normal track list.

Closing a folder hides a block of consecutive tracks.

There is a parent override on visibility.

This implies we will really have to break down and store some state here.
Regarding the store conundrum, I wonder whether it would be better to use Reaper to control the folder track state on the surface.

Look at this way, at the moment with the surface visibility following the MCP, if we hide a track in Reaper, it disappears from the surface. Surely if we issue a command from the surface to spill a particular folder, the child tracks will appear in the screen mixer and therefore (because visibility is following the MCP) on the surface. Similarly, a command from the surface to close a folder will result in the tracks disappearing in the on screen mixer and then on the surface.

If there was a way of 'clicking' via a command. the little icon shown using this Action:
Code:
Mixer: Clickable icon for folder tracks to show/hide children 41154
..we'd pretty much be done. Or is this just crazy talk
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:51 PM   #7476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Regarding the store conundrum, I wonder whether it would be better to use Reaper to control the folder track state on the surface.

Look at this way, at the moment with the surface visibility following the MCP, if we hide a track in Reaper, it disappears from the surface. Surely if we issue a command from the surface to spill a particular folder, the child tracks will appear in the screen mixer and therefore (because visibility is following the MCP) on the surface. Similarly, a command from the surface to close a folder will result in the tracks disappearing in the on screen mixer and then on the surface.

If there was a way of 'clicking' via a command. the little icon shown using this Action:
Code:
Mixer: Clickable icon for folder tracks to show/hide children 41154
..we'd pretty much be done. Or is this just crazy talk
That makes perfect sense.

It is always much better for Reaper to take on the responsibility for state.

I'll look into 41154.
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:58 PM   #7477
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That makes perfect sense.

It is always much better for Reaper to take on the responsibility for state.

I'll look into 41154.
The actual Action just shows/hides the little track icon that actually does the business, but it suggests to me that the mechanism we need already exists under the surface. Hopefully there's a way of getting at it
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Old 03-12-2020, 06:39 PM   #7478
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Geoff, quick question. You know we have:

Code:
 ToggleScrollLink
Could you turn this into an action that would force the surface to scroll/update?

I have it on a button to toggle the surfaces following the on screen selection, but in my battle with:
Code:
reaper.SetMixerScroll(reaper.GetSelectedTrack(0, 0))
...if I press it twice, bingo!, the surfaces scroll to the correct track.
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Old 03-12-2020, 07:04 PM   #7479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Geoff, quick question. You know we have:

Code:
 ToggleScrollLink
Could you turn this into an action that would force the surface to scroll/update?

I have it on a button to toggle the surfaces following the on screen selection, but in my battle with:
Code:
reaper.SetMixerScroll(reaper.GetSelectedTrack(0, 0))
...if I press it twice, bingo!, the surfaces scroll to the correct track.
I'll look into this.
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Old 03-12-2020, 07:07 PM   #7480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
The actual Action just shows/hides the little track icon that actually does the business, but it suggests to me that the mechanism we need already exists under the surface. Hopefully there's a way of getting at it
Thanks for pointing in the right direction.

Could folder support be as simple as:

Code:
    Alt+Select| TrackUniqueSelect
    Alt+Select| Reaper 41665
CSI must be following MCP for this to work.
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